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Value of Weight Training for Athletics

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by MannishBoy, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. bradh

    bradh Well-Known Member

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    True. While i'm partial to some methods and coachs i'm not close minded to other ideas and methods.

    Heck i might even give HIT a run someday since i never done any serious failure training. :)
     
  2. MannishBoy

    MannishBoy Senior Member

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    I'll agree baseball in general isn't constantly as much as a challenge athletically as football, basketball, or hockey. Reaction times for hitters isn't really helped much by training, so it doesn't matter how strong or explosive you are if you can't make contact.

    However, given a decent hitter, if you improve that hitter's strength and explosiveness, he can become much better. Weight training most definitely can help that.

    Chic's already pointed out how strength can help in sprinting. I don't see logically how something like acceleration speed couldn't be helped by having higher force generation capabilities in the leg muscles, especially combined with other speed training. Obviously, the faster guys are better between bases or running down balls.

    Sprinting also is very anerobic and requires a good lactate threshhold. This can definitely be improved via weight training as well as working on running itself.

    I agree training is required, but again, if you have more strength in the shoulders, forearms, serratus, and abdominals, you'll create more torque to be able to hit the ball faster. Leg training again for acceleration power is the same as mentioned above.

    Additionally, injury avoidance can be increased by training properly to correct any kind of imbalances in the body. Hamstring weakness can lead to problems for instance, or a pitcher with upper body imbalances can end up injuring themselves.
     
  3. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Yup.

    And more to the point, the modern understanding is that you want to train nerves and muscles for development separately, and use the sport specific movements for integration. This means that the sports specific aspect of the plyometric and resistance components of training are not as important as you might read in some places.

    The other aspect that is lost in the "sport specific" advocacy is that the injury resistance can be much different. In any sport that is highly asymmetric (handed) then the injury resistance comes almost all from the training. Less obvious imbalances from the sport specific training have (chest/back imbalance for rowers, etc.) have to be corrected and good old weight lifting is often the best way. This is because you don't want to add a lot of wear on the same joints that are being beat up in the sport specific work - you want the most strength increase in the fewest repetitions - if that doesn't sound like resistance exercise, you're not listening.
     
  4. tensdanny

    tensdanny Well-Known Member

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    Canada get outta here with that nonsense. You made several posts in the thread now that have been nothing but attacks and have virtually NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand.
     
  5. tensdanny

    tensdanny Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree that using resistance training will help improve strength and make you faster. I disagree that traditional weight room style resistance training will accomplish that.

    Simply doing squats, deads, etc aren't going to make you faster because they don't improve your coordination and muscle memory of the running exercise.
     
  6. tennisball

    tennisball Well-Known Member

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    What does this even mean? Traditional? 3x8/24 set bodypart split routine meant for intermediate bodybuilders? I don't get it. If you've ever done any sport-specific strength and power training, there is no bodybuilding going on. Sure, there may be a short hypertrophy cycle (as zen pointed out), but everything else is far from "traditional".
     
  7. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    You lost me, what running exercise are you talking about that builds coordination and muscle memory? Are you talking about a specific sport and exercise? Which one?

    My vote will always go to the basic muscle/strength building exercises. I don't think you draw anything more from trying to imitate the sports movement. It can be detrimental.

    You don't learn anything about swinging a baseball bat by swinging a dumbbell or a weighted bat, you only learn to swing a dumbbell or a weighted bat. You have learned the wrong muscle memory that can lead to confusion.

    So give yourself strong muscles. Learn and swing a baseball bat at a baseball thrown by a competent pitcher. Your coach will help you.

    And sure you will find all sorts of "trainers" and training "aids" that for some compensation will make you a better athlete. Just as you will find someone that will sell you something to make you sexy, handsome, and muscular, just take 4 of these pills a day.

    When y'all are tired thinking about that, explain Babe Ruth.:whistle:
     
  8. tensdanny

    tensdanny Well-Known Member

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    What I was essentially saying is squating and other leg exercises don't make you sprint faster. Sprinting until failure (thus giving the muscles involved an excellent workout) will make you sprint faster.

    Clear as mud?
     
  9. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    You are making yourself clear, but you are not making yourself correct.

    This guy:
    [​IMG]

    said:

    Whaddya know? An Olympic 100m champion training with barbells and squats.
     
  10. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Zen and I agreeing! Squats help build the muscles that you use in sprinting. The squats don't slow you down.

    Where we may disagree is that you don't have to do an exercise fast to be fast. You don't have to try to imitate a sport movement to enhance the sport. Don't put plates in a backpack and go to the starting blocks! Separate the muscle training from Learning the sport. And certainly don't drag a truck tire, while blindfolded, and running on one leg in a 110m race.
     
    #30 RTE, Mar 26, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2007
  11. Big_D

    Big_D Well-Known Member

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    I don't really even understand your argument. How can you even be arguing this? Weight training and strengthening your legs makes you LOADS faster. Look at ANY world class/collegiate level sprinters, and I guarantee they incorporate weights into their program. Focusing on power and explosion while lifting helps even more. Also, failure training on sprints is very dangerous, as your form will deteriorate and will increase your chance of an injury. Only in competition should one regularly go to failure or close.

    Another area weight training helps is throwing. I don't care how good your form is, if you weigh 120 and are 5'7 no amount of technique work is going to help you win the olympics.

    There are many other sports and many other examples of weights helping in sports. Weights don't make you good at sports, but they assist in making you better at sports.

    There is a reason we still play the games rather than have a lift off between the teams.
     
  12. tensdanny

    tensdanny Well-Known Member

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    I am sure most of these people are quite strong, but a weight room is not the only way to build strength. A squat is not exactly an explosive motion, and doing a jumping squat with weights or a split jump with a barbell of your shoulders is dangerous.

    No one is debating the benefits of resistance training. My statement was that traditional weight room lifts have very little impact in athletic performance. Sure, they might burn calories, strengthen your body and mind, and get you in better cardiovascular shape, but they do very little to actually improve the way you kick a soccer ball, or the way you throw a football.
     
  13. Big_D

    Big_D Well-Known Member

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    I guess it comes down to whether you consider fitness a part of athletics. You can kick a soccer ball with the best of them, but if you are slow and can't keep up with anyone, you aren't going to be very good at soccer.

    It also depends on what you mean by athletic performance, because if you are referring to Track and Field, at all, then you are wrong. Track is all about explosive power and speed, both of which are easily trained in a weight room. We do plyometric drills on the field, which do help with speed, but if you don't have the strength to maintain that speed, or the strength to keep your stride length long, it doesn't matter how fast you can lift your knees up.

    As for the ROM argument of football and soccer, well I am going to bring up golf. Awhile ago golfers were afraid of the weight room for fear that muscles would mess up their swing and their timing. Nowadays, most big golfers are also big lifters. Tiger Woods and a lot of the other young guys lift religiously, which is why the game of golf has evolved a lot in the past 20 or so years.
     
  14. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    No, besides all the things you say they do, they don't help? But those things are a mouthful! Now let me tell you, you keep brining out the "E" Explosive. Whats makes you that? strength and conditioning - yes. Techique and form - yes. Genes - yes. We will leave out - drugs because they are illegal.

    So what is left to make you explode. Some agility exercise, what do they call them? pylometrics . Jumping around on one leg. If that floats your boat, Do it. I don't suppose it hurts if you have time. read this past topic, also.
     
    #34 RTE, Mar 26, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2007
  15. tennisball

    tennisball Well-Known Member

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    Are you even an athlete? If so, have you competed at a higher level than high school? If so, were you competing at a NCAA Division I level? If so, you wouldn't be here debating this topic. You would know first hand that weight training and elite athletics are inseparable in today's sports. You seem to be merely an armchair quarterback when it comes to this discussion.

    FWIW, I am not an elite athlete by any means, but I train with collegiate athletes and coaches at my gym.


     
  16. jwdiho

    jwdiho Well-Known Member

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    One of the record holders in the 100m sprint used to squat over 600 pounds. His name escapes me...

    Brett Farve spends tons of time in the weight room and squats with his offensive linemen. I have no doubt this is why he has played so many years without a major injury.

    In my mind, genetics may get you to the big leagues but proper training keeps you there.
     
  17. chicanerous

    chicanerous Elite Member
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    This is what's causing the problem. You're trying to make this point, but no one is disagreeing with you.

    Absolutely. But, in your mind, what are some of the other ways? Keep in mind that strength can only built through increasing resistance. Plyometrics and bodyweight training (without exercise progression), for example, do not build strength.

    A squat can be an explosive motion -- it depends on how you perform it. A squat jump or other jump using weight is not inherently dangerous, though you have to be mindful of loading in respect to current level of conditioning.
     
    #37 chicanerous, Mar 26, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2007
  18. kmfisher

    kmfisher Well-Known Member

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    The general sport formula is pretty easy to understand:

    Maximum Strength (power lifting, max lifts, heavy weights) + Maximum Speed (sprinting form) + Maximum Power (explosiveness, jumping, agility) = Maximum Performance

    Elite athletes, including NCAA, train all of them. To maximize one, you need to maximize the other.

    Now, depending on the sport you will vary your focus, and then you will also include sport specific training, but in general, all sports (including long distance running) benefit from strength training.

    Here's some reading to do.
     
  19. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Borzov mentioned squatting reduced weight for reps in ten seconds. Sounds to me like that is getting into explosive territory.
     
  20. Big_D

    Big_D Well-Known Member

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    At the end of track season when you are trying to "peak" so-to-speak all your lifts are supposed to get lighter and much faster, light power cleans light squats, olympic good mornings etc. You also start practicing with a girls shot and discus to maximize the speed output. Your strength levels are supposed to stay consistent or even go down a little, but your power should be through the roof.
     

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