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Unofficial "How to Cut Thread"

Discussion in 'Fat Loss/Cutting' started by Jono, Feb 10, 2004.

  1. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

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    I suggest that everyone reads this carefully and understands the theory and science behind how food works in the body. What type of foods will do what and why. What your muscles need and what type of exercise is best.

    I have broken this down into 4 sections.

    1. Nutrition
    2. Cardio
    3. Weight Lifting
    4. Common questions.

    MHR = Max heart rate
    GI = Glycemic index
    Carb = Carbohydrate

    Nutrtion

    The first mistake people make is with how much they eat. I’ve seen people on this bored consuming less than 1500 calories a day. that is just plain DANGEROUS. sure your going to lose weight, but your body is using your lean muscle tissue as a fuel source.

    Cutting calories is not the answer to lose fat. When you reduce your calorie intake, you infact slow down your metabolism. Your body is a very smart machine, it knows how much and what you need. and when you reduce your food intake your body begins to "hold on" to its resources, primarily fat, using muscle as a first resort.

    the "smart" way to lose fat and build a muscular lean phyqiue is to reduce your maintenance caloric base by 200-300 MAX. this is how many calories you consume per day to lose no weight, or gain weight.

    The key to a successful diet is a well balanced diet.

    Many people worry about cutting carbs while they cut, carb’s are not out to get your! It’s simply the type of carb and its affect on your body. Below I shall explain how it all works.

    The glycemic index of a food simply determines how fast and how much affect a certain carb will have on the body.

    Carb  glucose  insulin  muscle/organ/fat, etc

    Example:

    When someone eats something like white bread, a high GI carb. It is rapidly turned into glucose, causing a bit of a panic attack in your body. Your body quickly secrets insulin into your body, transporting it as quickly as possible to the most readily available source, fat tissue! Not to mention this type of fast digesting carb (high GI carbs) will cause hunger pains and your body will beg for more food.

    When someone eats something like oatmeal, a low GI carb. It is slowly turned into glucose and enters your blood. Your bodies immediate response is to get rid of the glucose in your blood, hence the pancreas releases insulin to get rid of the glucose. Your insulin will than transport the nutrients obtained from this into your body (muscles, organs, etc). Since oatmeal has a low GI it is also slowly turned into glucose and slowly digested in the body. Something that is digested slower will have minimal affect on blood sugar and will keep you feeling fuller, longer, curving ones appetite.

    Consuming fat with a high GI carb is even worse, not only do you store the carbs as fat, but the added fat as well!

    Basic example of a diet

    Meal 1 (for those doing HIIT cardio): 1/3 cup cooked oatmeal with whey isolate mixed in. OR 1/3 cup cooked oatmeal with lean protein source OR low gi fruit with lean protein source.

    ** Morning Cardio **

    Meal 2: ½ cup cooked oatmeal with whey isolate and one red grape fruit. OR ½ cup cooked oatmeal with lean protein source with a low gi fruit.

    Meal 3: 1 scoop whey isolate with 1-2 tsp of flax oil.

    Meal 3: low GI fruit with lean protein source

    Meal 4: low GI carb with lean protein source

    ** Lifting Session **

    Meal 5: Post workout protein shake with dextrose OR 1 banana with protein shake

    Meal 6: 1 cup brown rice with lean protein source

    Meal 7: 2 cups green beans with lean protein source

    How much calories/carb/fat/protein do I need?

    Everyone is different, but a good rule of thumb is to follow 10-12 times your body weight in calories. And break down the protein/carb/fat into 40/40/20 split or 50/30/20 split respectively.

    Everyone should avoid unhealthy fats such as saturated and trans fats. Not all fats are bad, infact fat is essential for vital brain and organ function. EFA’s or essential fatty acids as they are called are very important.

    Some good sources of fat’s are

    Almonds
    Flax Oil
    Salmon Oil
    Olive Oil

    Many people will argue saying you need to measure your lean body mass, but you really do not need to do that. Everyone is different.

    Always start off at the higher end of the scale. For the first few weeks of your program, consume 12 times your body weight, if you find little or no change, cut down your intake by 100 calories and continue the program and make revisions every few weeks.

    Before you lift weights you want to consume a low gi carb accompanied by a lean protein source and start your workout 1-2 hrs after you consume this meal. Your body will use all those nutrients to fuel and power threw your workout

    The only time you want to consume a high GI carb is after a workout. This is because your blood glucose level is so slow your bodies first priority is to replenish them. So whatever you consume after a workout, even if it’s a protein shake will go directly to replenishing blood sugar levels and muscle glycogen, once this is done, your body is “primed” to absorb all the nutrients primarily into the muscle tissue.

    Consuming such as a whey isolate after a workout with a high GI carb source wont do much for you, the majority of the protein will go towards replenishing the glycogen levels.

    After your post workout shake your blood glucose levels will begin to drop again within 30-45 minutes, this is where you want to have a meal such as brown rice and a lean protein souce. It is important to note that consuming solid food during this time is essential! After a workout it is best to absorb something such as whey isolate because isolate is absorbed within 30 minutes. Now we want something that will be broken down and absorbed much longer.

    Cardio

    Cardio is a major and very important role in developing your lean physique. Now there are two ways about going about this. Moderate intensity for a longer period of time, vs HIIT

    45min @ 65-75% of your MHR. One must never exceed 75%, personally I aim for 70% and keep it to that point as close as possible. The theory behind this type of cardio is that in the morning on an empty stomach, your body will burn mostly fat, entering a phase called “lyposis”.

    HIIT. This high intensity isn’t for everybody. HIIT will blast your metabolism and use a lot of energy in your body, this is why it is essential to eat before performing HIIT cardio in the morning.

    Which one works best? For me, the longer duration cardio proved most effective, the HIIT obviously worked for me, but I found the 45min cardio to be much more effective because your body actually uses fat for fuel vs speeding up your metabolism for the rest of the day. Regardless of the cardio, your metabolism will get a kick start.

    My advice is to try both for two weeks each, in the end, they both work.

    It is also best to separate your cardio and weight training sessions by several hours. Doing cardio before or after will eat up nutrients in your body which should be used towards your workout/post workout recovery.

    Max heart rate = 220 - AGE..

    Example for someone who is 18 years old.

    220-18 = 202

    65% = 202 x .65 = 131.3

    75% = 202 x .75 = 151.5

    Weight Lifting

    It is commonly thought that when trying to cut or “tone” muscle, one has to decrease the weight and increase the reps, this simply isn’t true.

    MAX OT has proven (for me) and many many others to be the most effective way of building muscle. Muscle burns fat, and building muscle the fastest way possible using MAX OT principals is proven very effective.

    Basically you want to train 2-3 body parts a day, each muscle only once a week, and do 4-6 reps per exercise and do no more than 10 exercises per body part. Some muscles require more than 4-6 reps such as forearms and calfs which require 6-8 if not more.

    Questions

    Q: Should I do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach?

    A: The answer depends on the type of cardio you choose to perform. Moderate intensity cardio is proved most effective on an empty stomach in the morning. However, performing high intensity cardio such as HIIT will hinder muscle development. The reason being is HIIT is called “anaerobic” meaning, without air. The human body simple can’t burn fat or build muscle without air. Once a person has reached the anaerobic level, exceeding 75% max heart rate for longer than 10 seconds the body relies on carbs as a fuel source. First thing in the morning, your body has no carbs, so muscle is the next fuel source.

    Q: Should I lift weights on an empty stomach

    A: This is a definite no! Your body requires an extreme amount of resources to lift weights. Your body has no choice but to use it’s own muscle for fuel during a workout session. How logical is it to lift weights, trying to build muscle, while you are using the muscle as a fuel source!
     
  2. Ansett

    Ansett Well-Known Member

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    So how do you recommend determining the maintenance caloric base?
     
  3. Debujanai

    Debujanai Well-Known Member

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    I don't think a lot of the assertions you make in your 'unofficial' thread are very applicable as a general cutting guide. Most of the people reading this (including me) are new to health changes and exercise regimens, and I don't think anybody should start right off with MAX-OT or HIIT. While this may be an 'optimal' guide to perfect cutting, it should not be put in practice as you describe it for the majority of the readers on this site who are new to weight loss and looking for cutting advice.

    My 'unofficial' guide to cutting would be:

    1.eat 10-12 times your body weight in calories of healthy, wholesome food. Eat regularly to stimulate your metabolism (5 or more small meals throughout the day) Avoid saturated fat and sugary or processed food. Get enough protein (1 g per pound of weight a day is recommended) Drink water!
    2.exercise regularly with fat burning in mind
    3.build muscle mass to help burn fat
    4.don't overdo it - know your limits
    5.dedication and willpower is key

    I don't think there is a 'best' solution or method for any of those steps. It is up to the individual to decide what it best for them.
     
    #3 Debujanai, Feb 10, 2004
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2004
  4. SCHTEEVIE

    SCHTEEVIE Well-Known Member

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    for the most part, the nutrition part of this guide seems good.

    but the weight training is off the mark for most people. :confused:

    max-OT and a cutting diet is not a good mix in my opinion.
    It is generally not accepted that you can gain muscle while on a cutting diet.

    It is true that building muscle leads to increased fat burn as your "basal" calorie burn will increase due to extra muscle tissue burning more calories at rest; however, you can't build muscle AND lose fat at the same time!
    During a fat loss or "cutting" phase, it is not realistic to attempt to gain muscle - infact, you will likely lose some muscle while cutting.

    "bulking" is a whole other part of body building where you eat a calorie surplus and plan to build muscle; while bulking it is unrealistic to try to lose fat, and infact, some fat gain is an almost cetain by product of bulking.

    the best plan to gain muscle and lose fat is to do it in alternating "bulking" and "cutting" phases.
    so decide where your goals are, and then start on whichever "phase" you feel you need to.

    As for lifting while cutting, I would suggest a conventional 3 or 4 day split with a focus on lifting reasonably heavy, moderate reps (6-8 or so), but not overdoing it and pushing for really high weight and low reps - you can't make gains that your body is not being fed for. :nod:

    EDIT:

    to set up your total calorie intake, you must figure out how many calories your body burns, then decide what "phase" of training you are in to determine whether to add, or subtract from that number.
    (for cutting you want to be several hundred calories below maintainence, for bulking several hundred above)

    There are many online calculators that give a rough idea, but a general rule I found somewhere that seems to fit is as follows:

    Cut: 10-13 cals per lb of bodyweight
    Maintain: 13-15 cals per lb of bodyweight
    Bulk: 15-18 cals per lb of bodyweight

    :gl:
     
    #4 SCHTEEVIE, Feb 10, 2004
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2004
  5. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

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    i dont know a single person who has followed these principals, the ones i stated above. with varying ages who has not gained strength with a proper cutting diet.

    its all about macro nutrient split and timing.

    i never really went in depth with the weight lifting part, thats up to the person.
     
  6. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

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    take it for what its worth.

    the results you see in the gym are in your nutrition.

    take this from a masters in physiology and a degree in nutrition
     
  7. James_JJK

    James_JJK Guest

    I'm 19, 5'9" & weigh 179 lbs. I just recently got back into weight training. During my time off I gained weight, fat. My fat mass is like 33 lbs, on mybodycomp.com and my body fat is like 18.54 %. I'm just now starting to cut. So my daily calorie intake would be 179(12), 2148, so i should aim towards getting about 2100 calories a day? I want to keep a 40/40/20 diet, and would also aim for 179 grams of protein a day?
     
  8. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

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    2100 is a perfect starting number.. BUT i would try and get in more protein.. at least 200
     
  9. James_JJK

    James_JJK Guest

    Alright, good. Thank you.
     
  10. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

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    i strongly beleive controlling the intake of certain foods, antioxidents, controling free radicals, promoting proper muscle stimulous and getting macro nutrients in the right times is the biggest factor. not what your 40/40/20 split is.. in trying to gain strength with cutting.

    i mean if you honestly know how the body works, what food does what to what part etc. you will realize that timing is SO important.

    there is no real reason why you would lose strength on a cutting diet if you follow the exact principals unless MAYBE you just came off a steriod cycle or have incredable amounts of muscle.. benching/squating huge numbers.. but even than, you can "cut".. you just need to consume the right amount of calories and macro split/timing
     
  11. marcus

    marcus Well-Known Member

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    Good effort with the guide Jono, I was thinking of doing something similar but its just so damn hard because a lot of "facts" are arguable.

    With regard to putting on mass or increasing strength while cutting.

    Strengh and Hypertrophy are not the same, they are not directly correlated. It is very difficult to put on lean muscle mass during a cutting phase. If during a cutting phase you increrase your strength this does not mean that you have put on lean body mass. Your nervous system reponds to the weight training and you adapt by activating more muscle fibres.

    Bottom line dont try to put on lean body mass while cutting. You can expect some strength gains but wait until you reach your bodyfat gains before concentrating on hypertrophy.

    Jono can you further explain to me why we should eat before HIIT? From what I understood you said that we burn muscle mass mass during the workout. If this is true, how much muscle would we really burn during a short 15 min workout, I wouldnt think it would be that much. Also why would we burn muscle before fat?

    Cheers :tu:

    Marcus
     
  12. Two Step

    Two Step Well-Known Member

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    Jono

    Enjoyed the post . . .
    In spite of some negative feedback, I actually think you did a good job of laying out a basic nutrition and exercise strategy. I think that some people tried to make your general rules a little too applicable to their individual situation and this caused some of the negative responses.

    Don't be discouraged - this forum is in place to share knowledge - people can take it or leave it of their own free will.
     
  13. Tiger King

    Tiger King Well-Known Member

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    Hmm... So, a protein shake before you have a weight lifting workout? I've probably been fooled like a lot of others into thinking that protein shakes after a workout with some carbs would do good. So you're saying that more protein would go to my muscles by having it before?
     
  14. Sake Ninja

    Sake Ninja Well-Known Member

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    Is moderately intensive cardio combined with breakfast Ok, and would jogging be considered moderately intensive?
     
  15. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

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    you will build lean muscle mass IF your diet and training is spot on.. and i mean SPOT on. it's not going to be anything compared to when you have a surplus of calories vs a slight deficit.

    this is why carb/protein timing is so fundamental and it is possible.

    for me i've experimented with many things.. i have found doing HIIT on an empty stomach causes me to lose muscle mass.. this is ever apparent in my lifting workouts.. when i started eating before hand, i found myself losing fat just as quickly, yet i wasnt getting any weaker.

    now i've found the best cardio is moderate cardio for 45min at 70% my max heart rate.

    it is also important to note that cardio such as HIIT is extremely strenious on your immune system.. it actually weakens it for a period of time "x".. as does heavy lifting with max ot.. doing moderate cardio actually BOOSTS your immune system. and i've always had troubles with over training and the best bet was to incorporate moderate cardio and intense weight lifting.

    in the morning your body is in a insulin sensative phase.. its yurning for nutrients, glucose especially.. this is one of two most opertune time's to fuel your muscle and body with rich protein and quality carbs.

    logically, think about it.. after fasting for 6-8 hrs your body has used up all the food. your pretty much running on empty.

    one most note that every body is different, i found my body utilized muscle tissue much faster than other people for example. you have to figure out what works for you. but do not fool yourself into thinking that you will not burn muscle on an empty stomach doing HIIT.. all that energy your expending has to come from somewhere.. and it comes from the most abudent source in the body. which is first carbs (which there are none on an empty stomach).. secondly muscle tissue! and lastly fat.

    your body utilizes fat as a last resort! fat has the most energy.. it is apparent that every gram of fat is 8/9 calories? (something like that, i forget the exact number) and carbs and protein are 4 calories per gram.

    the whole purpose behind moderate cardio is that you enter a phase called "lyposis".. where your body actually begins to use FAT as a fuel source. but once the arobic threshold is surpased, your body can't burn fat without oxygen. hence, anerobic exercise such as HIIT.
     
  16. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

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    well the thing is, its not entirly bad..

    the ideal situation would be to have a solid meal with protein/carb

    in doing so, your body has time to slowly break down the carbs and protein and as you workout, it is utilized for energy and for repairing muscle.

    whey isolate is used up within 30 minutes.

    after a workout is when you want to be taking in isolate especially.. after you train there is a 3hr window in which you want to take full advantage of muscle recovery and growth.. this is where alot of people miss out on building some muscle while "cutting".

    right after you workout your body has ZERO glucose.. it needs to replace it badly.. if you spike your insulin with something lik dextrose or a high gi food.. your body is absolutly ripped/primed to suck down whatever you feed it and it will go DIRECTLY to rebuilding muscle tissue.. this is where you want that whey isolate to go.. since it will be devoured by your muscles within 30 minutes..

    30-45min after this you want to capitilize on your bodies need for nutrients. this is where you take in a solid protein/carb meal.. such as brown rice and lean chicken. this will slowly be digested and realeased into your muscle.. and 1-2 hrs after this you want to follow up with another solid meal.
     
  17. Tiger King

    Tiger King Well-Known Member

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    What about combining the two methods..?

    My usual isolate shake after a workout consists of about 60g of protein. What if I have half of it before a workout with some good carbs, then after the workout had the rest of it with some more carbs?
     
  18. marcus

    marcus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the explanation Jono, this is really interesting. I think I understand what your saying. Now, I understand that your body wont burn fat or carbs during anaerobic training because oxygen is not present. Doesnt this also apply to muscle? I may be wrong but it still has to convert protein to glucose to be made into ATP and it cant do this during Anaerobic exercise. During the rest periods of HIIT Im thinking we revert back to either the aerobic system or the lactic acid system and they would go through the carbs and then the fats and finally the muscle.

    I'd love more of your feedback on this Jono. I dont know if Im right but this is good its got me thinking. :confused:

    Marcus
     
  19. Tucker

    Tucker Well-Known Member

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    I'm so confused re: HIIT. I read on www.musclemedia.com that HIIT should be performed on an empty stomach, cause fat is the second thing the body goes to...
    Oh well, I guess the thing to do is try out different things and see what works.

    PS> thanks for the post, very well put together! :tucool:
     
  20. James_JJK

    James_JJK Guest

    I think a lot of people are still not sure about food intake before and after a cardio workout. Should you not eat before and then eat after? Would you need a protein shake before or after? Maybe just have a bowl of oatmeal or banana before and after have something...
     

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