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TBT concern.

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by krosspyder, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. krosspyder

    krosspyder Well-Known Member

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    (total body training .. chad w.)

    im finding it very difficult to manage or monitor wieght lifting amount after awhile because of the rep changes. for example... if im doing flat bench at 3x5 first and second weeks.... and then the third and forth week im doing something like 2x15 (just an example) with flat bench... obviously i have to drop wieght to do this... but i also have to keep in mind that i need to increase the load that my chest can handle so i can build mass and by hitting fatigue. usually i start off and then find out thats too much... then i drop a little... then im cool.. but by this time my muscles are tired... you get the point. im also finding a very hard time articulating this as i dont have the proper terminology. i hope you all can decipher what im saying.

    basically what i was used to doing was say 3x5 flat bench first week... second week 3x5 but increase the load by 5lbs.... third week same thing.... increase the load by 5 more pouns...etc. etc. with this very basic example i could monitor my progress more easily.

    what im thinking of doing and let me know if this is cool or not...
    is to do this... but every third week change the order... like dont start off with flat bench on third week.... make it last or in the middle and start with the excersize you did last the 1st and second week.

    do antagonize sets on the second and 4th and 6th week.

    change up db with bb when needed on excersizes every third week.

    basically to not do the same exact thing but still hitting the muscles i need to hit but making it easer for me to monitor load progress.

    or... anyone got something easier i can follow but still build mass?

    i know... TBT shouldnt be that hard to follow.. .but i suck at math.... i have a hard time figuring out 75% of whatever wieght but not sure what my max load is on 2 reps or 5 reps.. you get the idea.
     
  2. Jokat

    Jokat Well-Known Member

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    Hi there krosspyder,

    I did TBT for a while but never followed it very strictly because I also found it complicated and difficult to monitor. I have tried a number of different workout styles and have now settle on this one (because it is simple and easy to track, and I believe in keeping it as simple as possible)...

    - 3 Day Split.
    - Focus on compound exercises with some isolation work for fun.
    - Never more than a minute rest between sets.
    - One warmup exercise per muscle group.

    Wednesday: Back and Biceps
    Friday: Chest, Triceps and Abs
    Sunday: Legs and Shoulders

    I started with John's formula of 4 sets by 8 reps.

    So week one would go as follows...

    4 Sets, 8 Reps

    Then week two I use the same weights but bump up the reps by one...

    4 Sets, 9 Reps

    Then week three, same weights another rep added...

    4 Sets, 10 Reps

    etc, etc until I hit 12 reps then I bump up the weight by 2.5 to 5% and go back to 8 reps and repeat the whole cycle.

    I have no idea if this is an effective method of training as I am only on week three but I have decided its time to cut the complicated crap and keep it as simple and enjoyable as possible.

    I will probably complete one cycle and perhaps change some of the exercises around and switch from db to bb etc for variety.

    I am bulking so I dont do much cardio although I do do some.

    Anyway, thats what I decided after doing TBT for 8 weeks and driving myself mad.
     
  3. tennisball

    tennisball Well-Known Member

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    Hey kross-

    I think what you're doing is fine. Just make sure that you're enjoying it, and getting enough overload to your muscles to make the workouts worthwhile. If you're feeling like you're not putting enough effort into it when you're done with a bodypart, I would actually add another set. I think Waterbury's programs could even have more volume (meaning, more sets and reps per workout). If you are eating a lot and having proper PWO shakes, you would probably have no problem adding more volume to the program.

    For example, I do something like TBT and Waterbury Method right now depending on how I feel when I go into the gym. If I plan to do a higher rep day, I sometimes throw in an extra set or two, so it would end up at 4x15 for each bodypart. I'm usually pretty wiped out, but I haven't had a problem recovering yet.

    If I do a lower rep day, I might do a couple bodyparts at 10x3, then some at 5 or 6x5, some at 4 or 5x6.



     
  4. MannishBoy

    MannishBoy Senior Member

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    I always calculate expected weights before going to the weight room. I look at my logs for the last time I did a particular exercise and see what reps I did for a particular weight. I generally will divide it by it's percentage of supposed 1RM (although obviously doing multiple sets doesn't = 1RM, but it averages out and works nicely for working weights). That gives me my working 1RM, then I multiple that by the percentage that a particular xRM would be for a desired set/rep scheme.

    Here's the table I use:

    RM Percent of 1RM
    1 100%
    2 95%
    3 90%
    4 88%
    5 86%
    6 83%
    7 80%
    8 78%
    9 76%
    10 75%
    11 72%
    12 70%
    13
    14
    15 65%
    16
    17
    18 62%
    25 50%

    So, say I did 180 for 10 rep sets last time, but am doing the same exercise for 5 reps this time:

    180 (did for 10 reps)/.75=240
    240 (guesstimated 1RM)*.86=206

    So, I'd probably use 205 for the workout.

    Your way will still give you gains, but I think the benefit of TBT is it's constant change. However, changing hand grips and changing from DBs to BBs give you that change to, and is a recommended way of changing stuff up from Chad.

    Don't sweat it if it is too hard to figure out. Do it your way for awhile. The more you do it, the more you'll know your personal capacities. That's part of the beauty of TBT to me, I increase my knowledge of my body nearly as much as I improve myself physically. It's also a great motivator to learn new exercises.

    (BTW, anybody got a better table with the gaps filled in? I kind of interpolated the 15 reps, and took the high reps that weren't on any chart I'd seen from Chad's various forum posts answering questions over there.)
     
  5. DLiquid

    DLiquid Active Member

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    This was really my only problem with the TBT program. As a relative beginner, I really wanted to lift hard and progress gradually in poundages each week. With the constant variation of exercises, sets, and reps, I found it impossible to do this. Now if I had been lifting hard for 5 years, and then tried TBT for 8 weeks I probably wouldn't have had this complaint. For me right now I just need something consistent so that I can progress gradually, and maybe every 4-6 weeks I'll tweak things a little to make it interesting.
     
  6. M@

    M@ Monster Maker 2017

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    I'm in my 2nd week (just finished 2nd antagonist pair day) and am looking at reevaluating all my lifts next Wednesday. My plan is to guesstimate in the warmup set (1/2 working set weight) and boost in the following sets if it's too light. For the times when I have gone too light and needed to boost it after a set, I've just chalked that up as another warmup and tacked on an extra set. Just like Tennisball said.

    The following week I'll boost weights 1-2.5% and then the week after it's back to discovery. Basically winds up being four weeks of discovery sets and four weeks of working sets + antagonist pairings + slight load increase.
     
  7. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    This might sound dumb, but if I was doing that, I would do a few weeks of trying it out just to get an idea of all that gear shifting. Once I got the hang of it, then I would take a week and get a bunch of maxes for the various reps, take another week off, and then take it from the top. I would figure out in advance as much of the weights as possible and write them down.

    And yeah, I'm a mathematician and I'm pretty good at mental arithmetic. Thing is, when you are working out as hard as you are supposed to, are you that good at mental arithmetic? I know I'm not. Even after a few short warmup squat sets I make more mistakes than normal.
     
  8. dodus

    dodus Well-Known Member

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    I agree with ZP, if you feel like all the variation is making your numbers sloppy, do a couple practice weeks and then set aside a week to get your 1RMs for all of the main TBT lifts. You'll probably still end up finding in the middle of the program, for example, that your projected 15RM on lunges is actually too light and you can go heavier, but at least you'll have those reference points a little more "securely" established.

    When I was doing TBT, and in general, I did the exact same thing as you are doing--started off a new exercise with a reasonable assumption of what I could do, and then backed off (or increased) as necessary. Even though I was changing weights mid-week, mid-lifting session, shit, even mid-set all the time, I stuck with TBT because I could feel my body and musculature becoming better conditioned and more "in-tune". And, after a while, I got a handle back on all of my maxes, to the point where I knew that I was making progress with a certain muscle even if I was using a new set-rep scheme.

    Hope that makes sense...my main point is, stick with it. TBT attempts to do more for you than just getting your poundage up from week to week (linear periodization). You should get some good results.
     
  9. BreakingPoint

    BreakingPoint Well-Known Member

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    This is why I'm not a fan of variety. I have to have an awareness of my exercises (knowing what I'm going to do, how I'm going to do it and how I did with reps/sets/poundage last workout), I rarely change them yet I'm progressing nicely. Changing exercises often, to me, messes with my head. I only do it if I plateau (which is actually rare).
     
  10. krosspyder

    krosspyder Well-Known Member

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    thnx crew. i appreciate the responses and advice.

    i guess what it comes down to is to do the thing that is fun for me right?
    keeps me enjoying my workouts... thats where its at i guess.

    so.... i guess i just need to keep it simple. anyone got a simple plan i can follow that works? i mean... my diet is proper... i know whats up.... thnx to SGX and swole...so i just need something in the lifting dept. that works.
     
  11. MannishBoy

    MannishBoy Senior Member

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  12. tennisball

    tennisball Well-Known Member

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    Check out this post:

    http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showpost.php?p=346376&postcount=13


    Something chic and I were throwing around, and I might do this when I'm not travelling so much. I think you would dig it a lot. It's a very simple (5x5), 4-day, upper/lower split focusing on large compound movements. You will grow both size and strength on it.



     
  13. krosspyder

    krosspyder Well-Known Member

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    whats this called? or what is this more like? i noticed you said 5x5. would i increase 5lbs of weight every workout? or to i increase a rep and on every 3rd workout increase wieght? rest time? i need to know more about this. thnx man. this looks easy to follow.
     
    #13 krosspyder, Jul 31, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2006
  14. krosspyder

    krosspyder Well-Known Member

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    thnx. this is different then the TBT i was doing right? but easier?
     
  15. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    I voted for this too as long as you don't stay bilateral for all the leg work, include some twist/diagonal stuff, and do something for power, such as cleans.
     
  16. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Well I vote for the chicball program. But I also like my program, which is more or less "whatever we didn't do for a few workouts" program. In other words, when we do legs, if last time it was leg extension - this time it is anything but leg extensions. If it was lunges and two leg SLDLs last time, then this time maybe squats and glute-ham raises.

    It's interesting how this keeps things from getting stale but there really isn't that much thinking involved.
     
  17. tennisball

    tennisball Well-Known Member

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    I really like Waterbury method and Art of Waterbury.

    As for the 5x5 I linked above, it is sort of something we both came up with, but I think it's very solid. Here's what you do:

    For every exercise, you would do 5 sets of 5 reps. Pick a weight that would allow you to probably go to failure for the last rep of the last set (meaning, for every set leading up to that, you would feel like that the 6th rep would be failure, so you would leave one rep 'in the bag' for every set). Basically, you would be lifting very heavy for this program.

    Each week, try to add more weight, decrease your rest time, or pair the upperbody exercises. As long as you lift heavy for this program, I can't imagine you could go wrong.


     
  18. krosspyder

    krosspyder Well-Known Member

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    for how long would you do this before one changes it up to avoid plateau?
     
  19. krosspyder

    krosspyder Well-Known Member

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    cool... what do you mean by "bilateral"?
     
  20. MannishBoy

    MannishBoy Senior Member

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    Well, your problem with TBT seems to be you don't like the variability in the design of the periodization. So, the two I posted don't have you picking your own exercises and weights, really. Once you get started, you use the same exercises every week, and either add weight, sets, or reps, and keep the other things the same.

    Waterbury Method has you use the same exercises, sets, and reps, only increasing the weight as you go. Art of Waterbury does different things on different days: adding more weight on one day of the week for that set of exercises, adding more reps for another, reducing rest time, or even adding an extra set at the same weight as the week before. It's all spelled out, though. Very little thinking involved :D
     

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