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Strength, Hypertrophy and Endurance.

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by robbinhoodX91, Jan 5, 2009.

  1. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Well the ability to produce force is definitely strength.

    But the ability to produce power is also strength. Power just means how fast can you produce force.

    And then finally, there is a little bit of duration to strength. I don't mean doing sets with lots of reps (such as in my signature) - that is really just endurance based on metabolic conditioning. But doing a static hold is an example where strength is about how long can you produce the given force.

    So ultimately, yes, strength is always about force production - how big of a force, how quickly can it be produced, and how long can it be sustained.
     
  2. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    I don't think these guys are firing on all cylinders. it's pretty clear that initially you get better force production from neural activation but once you have those gains, which occur relatively quickly, you are going to have to muscle up if you want more force.

    Maybe they were doing studies starting with untrained people, or not controlling for training state adequately.

    The reason we have been focusing on elite athletes in this thread as examples of why you eventually have to gain muscle if you want to increase strength is that these people have pretty much used up all the "neural training" they can get. So have their elite competitors. When you consider the extreme focus of Olympic weightlifters on technique, it pretty much says that when you get near the top of that heap, you are talking about people who have honed their nervous systems to a very very sharp edge. That's why you see that to truly excel, you also need to bring the muscles along.
     
  3. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    I still don't agree. I believe even the most professional athletes could get stronger without gaining muscle mass.
     
  4. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Well you're welcome to start a journal here and demonstrate your theory.
     
  5. tsk2264

    tsk2264 Active Member

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    Can you give an example of an athlete who you believe got stronger without any gain in muscle mass?
     
  6. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    I have my workout log from the last two-ish months.

    Examples? Nope.

    I'm pretty sure all athletes would be bigger if they gained muscle mass every time they got stronger, though.
     
  7. goonie

    goonie Active Member

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    This is where specific context pretty much takes over. Along with the whole subjective aspects of at what point is something "impressive", "significant", "strong", etc.

    Are we talking 5 year professional golfer, or 15 year competitive powerlifter?

    I think you have the right idea for the most part Oti, scaling things to where YOU are in regards to your genetic potential, and what you're looking to get out of training. Sure as hell beats all the threads where people want someone else on the Internet to decide what their goals should be.

    It would be something entirely different if you came to the forum with questions complaining gains on all your lifts have come to a complete stop, but you refuse to eat/train in a way that would facilitate lean body mass gains.

    Seeing as how that doesn't appear to be the case, I'm not really worried about it. When you get to this point, it sounds like you understand the choices you'll have to make.
     
  8. tsk2264

    tsk2264 Active Member

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    Didn't think so.

    Ever notice how today's athletes for the most part look bigger and more muscular than athletes in the past? Incidentally, today's athletes with their superior dieting and training are also stronger than athletes in the past.
     
  9. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    It's not like I keep up with every athlete in the world.

    You want an example? The Olympic lifter I posted about before. He obviously got stronger more than he got bigger. If he's trained as long as other people who are bigger, why is he not as big a them? You can gain strength without size.

    Not really. Besides, what does that have to do with anything here? Just because the lifters of today are bigger doesn't mean you have to get bigger to be stronger. It works, yeah, but you don't HAVE to.

    Thanks goonie. I know what my goals are. :) It's just kind of annoying how some people here keep trying to convince me that my 100% strength / 0% hypertrophy training is impossible.

    Odd, eh?
     
  10. goonie

    goonie Active Member

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    Well from a purely physiological perspective, the technical accuracy of 0% hypertrophy could easily be argued against, but we'll hold off on the DXA scan details for now. :)

    Oti,

    You'd be better off just looking at most of these topics as a general discussion, rather than as a debate, and not view the contributions from other members as an effort to force different training methods/goals upon you specifically.

    Besides, we're on page 9 here, it stopped being all about you a long time ago. :p

    Your training will is only likely to have benefitted from having this discussion take place, and as the months go by, some of the aspects mentioned will start showing up, at least to some degree.

    Stay focused on what this all means from a force/power:bodyweight perspective, instead of bodyweight automatically = bad, and all will be well.
     
  11. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    By 0%, I meant low. Sorry.

    It's just everyone telling me my training is going to stop progressing after the first month that bugs me. Especially since I'm in week 10 ish and still gaining easily.
     
  12. Jaer

    Jaer Well-Known Member

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    Think of it as not trying to convince you what you are doing is wrong (because only you can decide what is wrong) but people giving valid science and experience-based evidence that, for most people, what you are achieving will not last. They are pre-emptively preparing you for what might (and by all evidence, will) happen.

    I wonder, though - you say you've been tracking your training; what are you tracking? Weight lifts? Body weight? Body fat? Body measurements? Certain objectives (like the vertical jump)?

    It would be quite interesting, and educational, to see the numbers as your training as you keep progressing, especially body measurements vs. strength gains. I understand if you'd want to keep your meticulously researched methods private, but showing your achievements along with the basic theory wouldn't reveal your techniques while still showing how well those techniques are working for you.

    Good luck with the training.
     
  13. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    I know it won't last forever. I've already agreed to that, although I do believe it can last a lot longer than what most people here believe.

    I'm only tracking the lifts I do. My bodyweight and everything else stays about the same. I've lost one or two pounds of body fat, that's all.
     
  14. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Look, keep doing what you are doing. But don't expect anyone to agree with you. I am amazed that anyone is still trying to convince you. So why not give them one exercise example on how your weight lifted increased?

    BTW: 19, are you a college athlete? In what sport? Sorry if I missed that.
     
  15. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    I'm going to continue, and I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, it's just annoying that some of them continued to debate with me. It's like, whatever, who cares? Leave me be.

    My leg press increased from 350 lbs to 750 lbs in the first month. From there, I started squatting. My squat increased from 185 lbs to 225 lbs over the course of the next month. It probably could have increased more, but there were some weeks where I didn't even do it.

    Also, my calf raises have increased from around 170 lbs to 300 lbs in the past two months and my leg curls have increased from around 110 lbs to 150 lbs in about a month of half-@$$ed effort.

    With all these increases in strength, especially in my quadriceps and calf muscles, my legs should be at least a TINY bit bigger. They're not from what me, my girlfriend and my best friend can tell.

    My chest and lats are the only things that have gotten bigger on me and that's because I SPECIFICALLY worked them for hypertrophy a few times. I did this because they were practically non-existent.

    I'm pretty sure the only hypertrophy goal I would ever have would be to have lats like Bruce Lee. I want to jump off a roof and glide with those babies. :p

    And about my being 19, no, I'm not a college athlete. I took the last year or two off from school so I could have some fun and try to figure out what I want to do with my life. I'll start college this fall. Maybe I'll try for some sort of track and field event, but I highly doubt it. Coaches have always annoyed me, mostly because they don't know what they're doing (at least around here).

    I'm sorry, but when you call yourself a coach and you can't even demonstrate the proper form of a bodyweight lunge to your athletes, I don't want you training me. I'm better off alone. :p
     
    #175 robbinhoodX91, Jan 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2009
  16. Big_D

    Big_D Well-Known Member

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    Something as unobjective as "do my legs look bigger" isn't really a good way to go about things, get out the tape measure and calipers if you really want to prove the point.

    My recommendation would be to keep an open mind to training techniques. Mocking your coach or saying that he doesn't know what he is talking about is a good way to go nowhere. If after time you still aren't progressing, then you evaluate. However, contempt for people with different experiences/knowledge than you is probably not the best route to take, if only for the fact it makes you sound like a pompous ass when honestly you haven't achieved anything.
     
  17. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    Gonna be hard without knowing their previous measurements.

    You missed my point about the coach. He doesn't even know proper form.

    It's not that he trains differently than I do or that he believe different things. I don't criticize people for training differently than I do. Different people have different goals than I do. I get that. Fine. Do what you want to. I WOULD be an ass for trying to stop them just because they train differently.

    It's the fact that he does not know PROPER FORM, and yet he yells at the athletes and tells them how to do things. Would you listen to a coach who teaches people to squat on the balls of their feet, hold their knees in and raise the weight with their lower back? What about if a coach tells you to swing the dumbbells when you do bicep curls? If you consider this a different kind of training method, you don't know much about exercise.

    Form is everything. To sacrifice it is a waste of time. Do you progress when you use bad form? Sure. But what happens when you start using proper form? You're nowhere near as strong as you thought you were.
     
  18. Big_D

    Big_D Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what point I missed? Most coaches are there because they have achieved something within the sport they are coaching in or have a vast amount of knowledge about said sport. While I agree there are bad coaches, I don't think your area is devoid of any knowledgeable people. This statement makes you seem like you think you're the bastion of knowledge in an otherwise idiotic area. Find the guys that have the same goals/have achieved what you want to achieve, and train with/emulate them.
     
  19. robbinhoodX91

    robbinhoodX91 Active Member

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    I'm actually pretty much on my own around here. No one that I know has the same goals as I do.

    Besides, I don't need someone to emulate. I know what I'm doing.

    I've determined my goals and how I'm going to achieve them. Every day, I work hard and I'm getting closer to them.
     
  20. George

    George Senior Member

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    So you're basing your conclusions on training the leg press and squat for a month each and doing calf raises and leg curls without really putting effort in? And as Dave mentioned, you're stating that your legs didn't grow because they don't really look bigger?

    I don't think you have the evidence necessary to back up your claims. Try doing something like this: Measure your legs. Find your true 1 or maybe 3 rep max in squats. Add 100 pounds to your squat at the same depth with the same form (this can be hard to gauge so you might want to video both lifts). Measure your legs again. Post the results. :)
    :confused: Cheat curls are a staple exercise for many experienced bodybuilders, powerlifters, and strongmen. A lot of these guys are at the top of their respective fields. I'm sure they know something about exercise. :)
     

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