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squats

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by doordude42, Dec 12, 2005.

  1. tdunne

    tdunne Well-Known Member

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    I got some pedantry and a wiseass remark in the same reply - good show, that's not easy to do. On the other hand, I didn't ask about the differences between squats and deadlifts in general, but "dumbbell squats" in specific.

    Explain to me how squatting with dumbbells held down at deadlift height qualifies as a 'push'. Further, explain to me how you 'sit back' on your squat with the weight starting at your ankles for the lifting phase. I'm not saying this exercise isn't beneficial, but I don't really see how the ergonomics can be closer to the back squat than a deadlift. The balance requirements are radically different, and there's definitely no way that torso stabilizer muscles are affected in the same way.
     
  2. John Stone

    John Stone Every day is Leg Day
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    Um, chicanerous is a well-respected and well-liked member of these forums. He took the time to reply to your post, and even if he didn't answer your question to your satisfaction, there's not the slightest hint of "wiseass" in his reply. Your post, on the other hand, I have a definite problem with.

    The rest of you, please resume thread.
     
  3. chicanerous

    chicanerous Elite Member
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    I'm sorry that you applied a tone and character to my post that was unintended and I hope that you will not think of me unkindly on account of this misunderstanding.

    I would like to refer you to the following two links:

    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/DBSquat.html
    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/BBDeadlift.html

    I apologize that ExRx does not have and I could not find a suitable page describing a dumbbell deadlift in the same format. However, I hope you will agree that the mechanics of a dumbbell deadlift and barbell deadlift are the same when the dumbbells are held in front of the body.

    There is definitely an intimate relationship between any squat and any deadlift as the same muscles are involved in each lift -- as ExRx confirms: quads, hams, glutes, lower back, calves. However, the distinction between the two is that any squat loads the weight within or extremely close to (in the case of a hack squat) the vertical plane that runs through the body's center of mass; in contrast, a deadlift normally loads the weight in front of this plane. As such, any deadlift use the hips, lower back, and traps to pull the weight upwards and backwards on the concentric portion of the lift, while any squat, on the concentric, merely presses the weight straight upwards until the body is again erect. As well, using proper form, a deadlift uses the least amount of depth necessary to initiate a powerful pull, while the squat lowers to the deepest depth that a lifter can safely perform. Additionally, there is much more hip and lower back involvement in any deadlift than in any squat; the squat tries to maintain an erect upper body to the limits of the body's hip flexibilty and balance, while the deadlift pulls the weight upwards and backwards, significantly and purposefully changing the inclination of the upper body -- indeed, at the peak of a deadlift, the body will normally be slightly leaned backward behind its own standing center of mass. Because of these differences, though the same muscles are used in each lift, they are loaded and forced to work in different degrees, which differentiates the two exercises.

    The deadlift's status as a pull comes primarily from the hip and lower back's involvement in the lift, despite the fact that the legs do indeed push the weight upwards. The squat's status as a push comes from the leg's involvement in the lift. ExRx confirms this.

    The distinction between a deadlift and squat becomes less clear when dumbbells are used and held at the sides during both lifts. The tendency is to squat the weight as this is the more natural movement with this loading. The weight must be pulled backward as it moves upwards for the movement to be a deadlift -- the hips and lower back must be significantly involved and not merely used to maintain a maximally erect upper body. I, personally, would advise any lifter to use a barbell instead of dumbbells when performing a deadlift so as to eliminate this possibility of mistakenly performing a squat. (I believe this may also be the reason why ExRx does not carry a dumbbell entry for deadlifts.) Alternatively, the dumbbells can be held in front of the body, but I do not think this is safe as it places the weight's center of mass too far forward of the body's own, which is dangerous in a deadlift and can more easily lead to a rounding of the lower back when using maximal weights; this set-up is, however, suitable for dumbbell cleans.

    In a squat, when the dumbbells are held hanging at the side of the body (as I've been discussing) the movement approximates best a back squat. When they are held on the shoulders, the movement better approximates a front squat.
     
    #43 chicanerous, Dec 19, 2005
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2005
  4. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    You're just TOO DAMN NICE!!!!!!!

    only kidding:D
     
  5. swole

    swole Well-Known Member

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    Yah, he is.


    And John: Holy muscles, Batman. Pretty soon they will be asking you to try out for a new Terminator movie!
     
  6. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    It's OK to have the dumbells a bit forward when you are doing single leg dumbell deadlifts though, because the free leg counterbalances them.
     
  7. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    See? Compounds ain't so bad after all.... :D
     
  8. guava

    guava Elite Member
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    I've been doing dumbbell squats as part of my leg routine, and I don't feel it in my glutes at all nor in my hamstrings very much. Is it a balance problem? I feel leaned over too far forward when I do them, so I do mixed sets with ball squats. Should I be doing the ball squats with weights? I also find that the ball ham curl is great for glutes.
     
  9. senimoni

    senimoni Well-Known Member

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    I've seen pics with db squats where the dbs are held up near the shoulders......would it be more beneficial to do it witht he db's held up??
     
  10. Butterflyer

    Butterflyer Well-Known Member

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    I, too, love squats. And I don't know why!
    I used to hate lunges but now I like them. I think I've developed a trend for liking exercises that are really difficult for me.:confused:
     
  11. Butterflyer

    Butterflyer Well-Known Member

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    I've noticed when I try to pay attention to basing my balance on my heels and pushing up from my heels, it seems to work the glutes more. Also, for me, a wide stance helps it hit the glutes more.
     
  12. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    I NEVER said compounds were a bad thing. As a matter of fact i've ALWAYS said I advocate using compound movements followed by an isolation excercise!!!!!!!!!!! The isolation is a MUST in my book.:neener:
     
  13. swole

    swole Well-Known Member

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    From what I recall, your figure does not need much, it is already sculpted like a fine Botticelli. :tu:

    As BF indicated above, the wider you go, the more you will feel it in the hams and glutes. Start with shoulder width and point your toes outward and let your knees follow your toes outward as you sit back, and then down. If you don’t feel it, then try them with a little wider stance and make sure you are going to at least parallel. To prevent from tipping forward, as BF said above, try to keep most of your weight on your heals, say approximately 60/40, especially when you are pushing upward. You will find that over time, as you strengthen your glutes and hams, you will be able to squat more to parallel than if you use a narrow stance, because you are using all of your lower body (glutes, hams and quads) as opposed to mostly quads.

    Those ball squats shown are good form. Another good way to learn is to get a low bench or box, or a milk crate. Use a wide stance and practice touching your butt to the bench without weights until you get the form down. Then try it with weights. If you sit back and down properly, then your shins will remain mostly vertical. Unlike the ball squat, your torso may have to come forward a bit in order to sit back and down while holding weights, but that is OK. It wll only make your lower back and abs stronger.

    For added ab work, keep your abs sucked or tense (but continue to breathe properly) while doing the squat.
     
  14. Timbermiko

    Timbermiko Well-Known Member

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    Here we go again:lol:
     
  15. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    Dude, you KNEW it was just a matter of time.:lol:
    On another note. Jr.'s football team just began training again for next season. He came home last night claiming his legs were sore after a tough workout of squats and the sled. He's crippled this morning!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :D
     
  16. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha...I've learned my button pushing skills from the best -- Gotta test the master every once in a while :lol:
     
  17. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You've learned well!!!!!!!!:tucool: :tucool: :tucool:
     
  18. Justitia

    Justitia Elite Member
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    I am not able to lift as much with a squat as I am with a deadlift. So I had to use DB's. I found it hard to make progress (of course a shortfall in consistency plays a role here :o ). I am able to make progress in other exercises but not the squats.

    I discovered my gym had gotten these "Body Bars" which are BB's (with no weights on the end) in graduated weights, starting as low as 8 lbs (I think) and then going up in 3 or 6 lb increments up to and including 30 lbs. Then I could shift to the Z bar (I heard it called that, or the "wavy" bar) which is 25 lbs and then I started to be able to put on a little weight.

    The bar felt much different from the DB's and I liked it much, much more. I like doing deadlifts and then I once I started with the "Body Bar" I started to enjoy squats.

    But my weeks of workouts keep getting interupted, so I have never gone beyond that.

    Chicanerous: how can you be so young, so knowledgeable and so sophisticated about it? I keep having to look at your age every time I read one of your posts and have to shake my head in disbelief.

    When I first started learning about dealdlifts and squats this past winter, I had a devil of a time distinguising between the two in terms of movement even with reading ExRx, videos on-line and posting on several boards. Your explanation of comparing the two has been the most concise and succinct and has helped me solidify more what I have come to be able to figure out through my readings and queries. (And no, there is no trainer around I can ask..I am the ONLY one in my gym that I have seen who does squats and deadlifts, including the trainers, and you should see the stares I get.. :lol: )

    I have been using Swole's suggestion for holding in abs, which he has suggested in the past generally, in a variety of contexts with satisfying effect.

    I have enjoyed this whole thread tremendously and everyone's contributions. ...thanks for starting it Doordude
     
  19. Butterflyer

    Butterflyer Well-Known Member

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    My very first reaction reading guava's post had been that her glutes are already super strong and that's maybe why she's not feeling the squats working there! ;)

    Reading your description actually made my abs and lower back feel like they were working just now, like a virtual squat. :nod: ouch!!:)
     
  20. mrpilotguy

    mrpilotguy Well-Known Member

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    I agree....I have several of his posts (and others) copied to a Word file for future reference.
     

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