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Slight DOMS, Does any one like them?

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by CA$ON, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. mastover

    mastover Well-Known Member

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    I hope the people who PM'd me regarding DOMS forgive me for expressing my opinion on this thread, instead of answering them personally. I'm no expert on this subject by any means, so please bear that in mind.

    From what I've seen, the only accurate gauge to determine whether DOMS renders hypertrophy on the said bodypart is through a lengthy period of training experience. As an example, if you've been having DOMS on a regular basis with your quads after a couple of years of training, has it induced growth? Same situation with the glorified "pump". People love the pump, but has it produced results? Or does it merely feel good temporarily. After a year of feeling the pump, has it produced noticable results? On paper, the pump opens up the blood vessels for increased nutrient flow. But even so, is this leading to more gains. Only time and experience can tell.

    My chest always has had DOMS from way back since I first started training in 1922 :). I can do 2 sets of DB fly's with 15 lbs. or 25 sets of various chest movements to failure, and lo and behold my chest is sore to the touch the next day. Even with only the 2 sets of DB fly's. Yet chest remains my weakest bodypart :o

    Now legs on the other hand are different. I never get DOMS. Whether it's some crazy workout involving multiple tri-sets of leg presses into hack squats into squats, or SLD's with 355 lbs for 8 sets or 5 sets of 50 rep leg presses finishing off with walking DB lunges........my legs never get sore. But they continue to improve and remain my strongest bodypart :confused:

    My stance is a neutral one with DOMS. I pay it no mind, unless it's after a deadlift session, where the deep ache in the entire trap/erector/lat area is too luscious to describe. ;)

    IMHO :tucool:

    So, I probably lean towards zenparaohs opinions on the topic.
     
  2. Blighty

    Blighty Active Member

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    I never, ever, not never, feel DOMS in my forearms. But my forearms are worked hard in every exercise I do - my hands support weight, in a gripping motion, in every exercise I do. I do get DOMS elsewhere but not where you'd expect it - my lower arms which work hard every time, sometimes to the point where my grip begins to fail and I have to put the weight down sharpish before it plummets to the ground. It can't be due to adaption because I didn't have soreness in my forearms after my first training session. Perhaps it's because the forearms mainly work isometrically when I exercise. But, my traps hurt after my first dumbell squat session and they will have been working isometrically. My forearms are a bit bigger than they used to be, especially the tendons in my wrists so they, at least, are gaining without paining.
     
  3. Foley

    Foley Well-Known Member

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    In my (very small amount of) experience, I seem to get DOMS when I haven't worked the said bodypart for a while. My first leg workout back, I could not walk for 4 days, but after the second, I was fine.

    Same with Chest. I could almost not touch my face with my hands, as my chest hurt so much. After the next Chest workout, it is fine.
     
  4. dszil

    dszil Well-Known Member

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    Blighty:

    However...my guess if you HAVE been spending your entire life using your grip quite routinely and quite often to failure?

    Your traps on the other hand?...

    Not saying this proves that your body may have adapted more to stress on your forearms...just saying it may prevent you from ruling it out. Think of the "big toe" test people tend to do with cold water. Stick your foot in and it doesn't really feel that cold. The skin on your feet is quite used to exposure to the cold so you're body tends to not warn you unless the water is freakin' cold! Start wading in though...or have a wave crash into your chest...so the water hits some of that skin that doesn't get cold nearly as often...and you tend to get some different messages! (always made me laugh watching people do this when I worked beach patrol) Your first "training session" really was back when you took your first step or two. Everything you have done since then has "molded" your internal systems into what you have today. Just something to consider...
     
  5. 1FastGTX

    1FastGTX Elite Member
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    I don't think I've seen anyone say that. I've seen people say you cannot ISOLATE, but not that you cannot target or emphasize.

    Pretty hard. And I rarely get DOMS.

    I am the same way as you. A layoff or sudden introduction of an unfamiliar exercise will induce soreness. Or pulling a groin. That's about it. :)
     
  6. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    If you do some single leg work on inverted bosu you would be able to control that tilt.
     
  7. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Tom Venuto on DOMS:

     
  8. DashZ

    DashZ Active Member

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    After not reading this thread for a whole day, wow, that's a lot of good informative posts.

    So, my thanks to you all for enlightening me, and providing different opinions.

    For me lately, when I work on my triceps, I usually feel DOMS the next day, when I work on my biceps, I usually don't experience them. So, I was wondering if I'm not effectively working my biceps. I have noticed a little bit of gain and definition starting in my triceps more than the biceps. Having a good set of "guns" is a personal goal. So I wondered maybe I need to start upping the weight on the biceps to get them to be a little sore, like my triceps. See why I use DOMS as a gauge? But know I think I shouldn't be so concerned. (as an engineer, its a personal hobby and inclination to analyze things to death)

    Thanks everyone, you're helping me a lot.
     
  9. Rabid

    Rabid Active Member

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    When I first starting lifting, I got DOMs for the first three weeks or so, but they gradually went away. I'm of the view that DOMs doesn't have anything to do with training hard because I went from barely able to bench 130 pounds six months ago to hitting a new personal best Sunday PM of 195 and I don't think I felt any DOMs in my chest/triceps since April or May. In fact, the only time I've felt DOMs in the past few months was when I did Good Mornings for the first time. My hamstrings were very sore the next day, but the next time I did them it wasn't nearly as sore and now the day after, nothing.

    I'll agree with others that say that nutrition and getting plenty of water and rest are probably contributers to keeping DOMs minimized. It makes sense that if you are feeding your body right, staying hydrated and sleeping, your body has everything it needs to repair itself quickly.
     
  10. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Well, I know others will disagree, but I don't think DOMS is meaningless. I do think you can make progress without it though, and that the absence of DOMS isn't an indicator of an ineffective workout.
     
  11. guava

    guava Elite Member
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    I'm sensitive about zen too. :cry: And mastover. :cry: But they've both proven to be very knowledgeable people, so I'm learning to love them, even though their response style can be a little bit harsh.

    DOMS makes me feel a sense of accomplishment, even if it isn't necessarily a good indicator of it. I've had DOMS which was followed by no noticeable changes in strength or hypertrophy, and I've had leaps in strength without DOMS, so if there is a relation between it and growth, it's not without it's exceptions.
     
  12. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Tom needs to clarify this. Soreness in general is not the same as DOMS, which is only delayed onset muscle soreness. When he then quotes Wilmore and Costill, what process is he referring to?

    Since DOMS is not clearly understood, (at least not in the open literature) then I would suspect that Wilmore and Costill could be talking about a process associated with soreness that could be unrelated to DOMS.

    There's a lot of biochemical pathways involved. Almost by definition, soreness involves nerves (CNS, pain thresholds) as well as other physiology. So when we get down to individual people's experience of soreness, it's going to be hard to say whether this hypertrophic process that causes soreness in one person has to be absent in a person who does not experience soreness.

    You can ask any dentist - people vary very widely in how much pain they experience even from the same procedure. I had a root canal on one molar that made me think I was going to die once, and the same molar on the other side was no big deal. It was still a major root canal.

    One final thing about this. There are processes associated with hypertrophy that may be blunted if you take NSAIDs (like ibuprofen). But my recollection of that research is that it was about immediate use of ibuprofen - not delayed.
     
  13. mastover

    mastover Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I'd use an inverted bosu ball for is probably to sit on one after my workout and eat a sandwich or something.

    :o

    Aw shucks....I had no idea......;)

    Harsh? What are you talking about Guava!!:mad::mad:
    I WOULD NEVER BE HARSH WITH YOU!!!!!!!:mad::mad:

    :)
     
  14. Rabid

    Rabid Active Member

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    Oh, totally. I'm not saying that the presence or lack of DOMs is meaningless. I just don't see them being a true indicator of workout intensity. If the weight you can push keeps going up and the tape measurements increase/decrease, that should tell you if you're working hard enough.

    I know I had some killer DOMs a few weeks after not having them back in April or early May. The reason? I did one set of 100s for my chest, legs, back and biceps. I think when you drastically change something in the workout, you'll see them for the first few workouts.

    Just my $.02
     
  15. Blighty

    Blighty Active Member

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    No, I carry a dumbell in each hand.


    I usually get DOMS when I have done some higher repetition work. Rarely when I use a weight that I can only lift for 3 or 4 reps. In fact, I can't recall that type of soreness after such low reps. I did some light dumbell bench pressing today - first set 11, second set 10, and third set 7. I haven't done any benching for three weeks and I think my chest will be sore tomorrow. I then did 3 sets with just my left arm with an extra 20 pounds for 3 reps each set. I doubt if my left chest side will be more sore than my right.

    I experience a lot of soreness after doing slow-ish eccentric work. Perhaps that has something to do with it - if you just let the weight down without a fight it might not lead to soreness so often.
     
  16. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    A well balanced diet, I take it.

    Odd, I just did a leg workout with my old trainer Andre (who as far as we know invented the single leg barbell deads on inverted bosu) and it was all "normal" exercises. I cruised through the tougher stuff only to crash and burn on the easy stuff at the end.
     
  17. CA$ON

    CA$ON Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good info on this thread!


    Other than ETS (From ATLARGE) What else would help get rid of DOMS ?

    Does stretching help the muscle or hurt it?
     
  18. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Stretching does not affect DOMS.

    Dunno about ETS.

    Most of the stuff you can do to avoid DOMS is to stay well hydrated, maintain a high level of cardiovascular fitness. It's not guaranteed though, since nobody really knows what DOMS really is.

    You can also take NSAIDs for DOMS, but this may or may not be a good idea depending on the scheduling of your workouts. It's complicated to figure out whether you should take NSAIDs because that interacts with a bunch of long term health issues as well.
     
  19. Nowhereman

    Nowhereman Well-Known Member

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    Wow! I'll have to remember not to use refer Mastover to other people as his pm box can get overfilled.

    I also love how DOMS feels especially in my back. I like stretching it out when I'm sore. Ahhh complete bliss! But I don't really get it anymore. Only time I do is when I switch up routines or exercises.
     
  20. dszil

    dszil Well-Known Member

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    CA$SON...a good number of experts are in agreement that Low Intensity Activity can assist in reducing DOMS once it has set it. However...you'd have to do so with a full range of motion of the sore muscles to get the full benefit which is typically difficult to do with DOMS. However...if you can think of any way to temporarily increase your range of motion in those muscles so that you can get that full range of motion...then you should be able to use that Low Intensity Activity to help.

    It has already been proven that zen and I definitely disagree on this one...but like I said...in my opinion and the opinion of several experts...if you can think of a way to maximize the range of motion you use during the low intensity activity...you should be able to reduce the soreness.
     

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