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Quick Question: Lifting tempo

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Ender85, Aug 17, 2005.

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  1. COBRA

    COBRA Well-Known Member

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    Explosiveness can be achieved simply by altering weight percentage (6O-80%).If you were looking to incorporate speed strength you would use 90% or more.There would be no requirment to prescribe a given tempo.

    I know there are those of you who's views favor a said tempo.I respect your views.However,i don't agree.
     
  2. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I want a mix of strength and hypertrophy. The perfect balance using triple progression. I don't seek endurance or competitive lifting.

    Speed and agility are sports specific in my view. You build your muscles and strength then practise your sport. Health comes mainly from diet and genes.
     
  3. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    This is a rare moment when I actually took the time to type all of this... :lol:
    This is coming right out of the NASM text, and it's what I'm sticking by. The tempos listed below are mearly examples to act as a referance guide to better understand the variables between the Eccentric, Isometric, and Concentric movements. I do note that other than in hypertrophy phase of training, the concentric movement is basically "put it up". I think that this may fall into place with the discussion that "tempo doesn't matter" for those that wish to view it as such.
    I'm not taking the time to type out the 23+ references made throughout this section of the text, which include ACSM's resource manual for guidelines for exercise testing and prescription.

    Acute Training Variables:
    Repetitions
    Sets
    Training Intensity
    Training Volume
    Repetition Tempo
    Rest Interval
    Exercise Selection
    Exercise Order
    Muscle-action Spectrum
    Training Duration
    Training Frequency
    Planes of Motion
    Range of Motion
    Neural Demand

    Repetition Tempo (The Contraction - velocity Spectrum)

    Repetition tempo refers to the speed with which each repetition is performed. This variable, also known as the Contraction-velocity Spectrum, is an important variable that can be manipulated to achieve specific training objectives such as neural adaptation (power, speed, etc.), hypertrophy and endurance.
    Functional movements also occure at different velocities. Therefore, to achieve the appropriate results from training, the health and fitness professional must recommend the appropriate speed of movement for the exercise based on the contraction-velocity spectrum.
    The amount of time that a muscle is contracted, yields specific results (time under tension). Foe example, the optimum contraction velocity for maximum celluar changes is approximately 20-70 seconds per set (eight to 10 repetitions at a 4/2/2-2/2/1 tempo). The optimum contraction velocity for speed strength is as fast as the indivisual can move. Therefore, based on the client's specific goals, the fitness professional must utilize the entire contraction-velocity spectrum to achieve the desired results.
    By emphasizing eccentric and isometric muscle actions at slower velocities during the initial phases of training -- Corrective Exercise Training (CET), Integrated Stabilization Training (IST), and Stabilization Equivalent Training (SET) -- more demand is placed upon the connective tissue as well as preparing the nervous system for functional movements. This is important to build the appropriate physiological foundation for specific forms of hypertrophy -- Muscular Development Training (MDT); strength -- Maximal Strength Training (MST); power training -- Elastic Equivalent Training (EET) and Maximal Power Training (MPT).

    Contraction-Velocity Spectrum

    Training Adaptation..............Training Velocity (Eccentric/Isometric/Concentric)
    Neural Adaptation -------------------------- As Fast as Possible (1/1/1)
    Strength ----------------------------------- Moderate Speed (3/1/1)
    Celluar/Hypertrophy ---------------------------- Slow Speed (4/2/2)
    Endurance ---------------------------------- Slow to Moderate (3/2/1)

    A few notable observations I’ve made…
    Of all of the Acute Variables listed for the purpose of manipulating training phases, the section on Repetition Tempo is one of the shorter explanations. This might be able to be perceived as Tempo being one of the less significant of the variables to manipulate…Or…They simply felt that the topic was easy enough to understand that it didn’t require any further explanation than what was given.

    Searching through a number of article library’s that I have at my disposal, when I attempted to
    do a search for more in depth reading on tempo…there are very few articles that discuss tempo in
    any deeper detail than what is listed in the information above and what the other members here have presented.

    Breaking out Gironda’s material, the only mention of tempo is in regards to “training tempo,” which
    is really referring to rest between sets.

    Juan Carlos Santana states in an article…
    “Let’s begin with the assumption that, in a very basic form, “we are all the same basic organism.” That is, from a physiological perspective, the human organism deals with stressors in a very predictive manner; it adapts to them or it does not. The manner in which we generally adapt to specific stressors, like physical stress, is also universal and predictable.”
    This means that there are certain variables that will hold true for everybody. Including the effects of manipulating rep tempo.

    Moving onto an excerpt from Larry Scott’s material…”First Set…The first set will be the Amplification
    Set. This is done very slowly. About 5 seconds up and five seconds down. Naturally, you’ll have to use a lighter weight in order to go this slow but the greater intensity caused by the slower motion is absolutely fantastic. It will give you a terrific pump and it will start the GH flowing. Try to go all the way up and all the way down on each exercise. Really stretch out those muscles. You can rest a few minutes before going on to the Power Set.”

    And below I’ve inserted a page from Charles Staley’s material, which makes comment to effecting muscle growth verses strength.

    So regardless of whether you are conscious of your lifting tempo or not, the simple fact that you are moving an object through space at a given rate signifies that "a tempo" does exist, and does in effect yield specific results...you just may not care to pay attention to it personally.
    All in all, this is bringing me back to the one definite that I keeping coming back to…
    There is No Correct Way to Train. :rolleyes:
     

    Attached Files:

    #83 Kino, Aug 20, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2005
  4. COBRA

    COBRA Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for taking the time Kino.


    I've been trying to find Chad Waterburys views on the subject and came across this Perform Fast Concentric Tempos

    Perform Fast Concentric Tempos!
    "Of all the variables I’ve mentioned up to this point, you’re probably most surprised by this recommendation. Fast concentric tempos (the lifting portion of the movement) activate high-threshold motor units quicker than slow training. In fact, a trainee can achieve extremely high levels of tension within a muscle utilizing a very light load, if the speed of execution is fast enough. For further info on this statement, refer to Science and Practice of Strength Training by Vladimir Zatsiorsky.

    Here’s a statement that I’ve learned to make with utmost confidence: I hate Super Slow training. Our bodies weren’t designed to perform slowly, so I don’t train it that way. I feel the future of training lies within extremely fast tempos.

    But don’t read too much between the lines. I recommend that trainees execute tempos at varying speeds. Even though I usually prescribe a tempo as fast as possible, each load will mandate a different tempo. For instance, if I tell a trainee to lift a 3RM load as fast as possible, it'll be slow. If I tell a trainee to lift a 20RM load as fast as possible, it'll be very fast. Viola! One recommendation leads to different responses. Pretty cool, huh?

    Bottom line: Perform concentric actions as fast as possible, and keep eccentric (negative) phases under control (1-3 seconds of lowering). "

    :nod:
     
  5. tennisball

    tennisball Well-Known Member

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    I think more importantly if we look at this list (Thanks Kino) is Training Frequency. This is where rtestes and I will agree. Chad Waterbury's programs, while he is just one of many who advocate this, stress this to no end. In my opinion, this single variable is far more important than tempo in terms of muscle hypertrophy, for the TUT over the duration of a cycle will be the same or higher (e.g. 20 sets/bodypart/week spaced over 3 days, rather than fatigue training of 20 sets/bodypart/day). In this way, you can perform the exercises with rested muscles (given you have proper and sufficient recovery).
     
    #85 tennisball, Aug 20, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2005
  6. COBRA

    COBRA Well-Known Member

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    The bottom line is,you must apply enough tension and workload to stimulate hypertrophy.

    Professor Vladimir Zatsiorsky states in his textbook,Science and Practice of Strength Training,in order to stimulate growth,a muscle fiber must not only be recruited,but also exhausted.

    He also says that,"Motor units that are recruited but not fatigued are not trained.Only motor units which are recruited and exhausted are subject to training stimulus in this set."

    The aforementioned displays that the greater number of motor units/muscle fibers you can thoroughly exhaust during a set,the greater the adaptive stress and the greater the potential growth.

    I agree though,the relationship between frequency/volume/intensity is of obvious importance. :tu:
     
  7. JeremyLikness

    JeremyLikness Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh so tempo IS important. He wants the negative tempo to be "1 - 3" seconds, as opposed to just letting the weight come down as quickly as possible, or bringing it down super slow (although some argument can be made that 3 seconds to lower IS rather slow).

    Here I thought you were arguing AGAINST the use of tempo!

    Jeremy

     
  8. COBRA

    COBRA Well-Known Member

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    I believe his views are quite clear.With regards to the "1-3 seconds of lowering",i'm assuming that Chad is just illustrating to the less experienced (i.e. beginners).I agree with all of what he said (illustration aside),it's what i stated in my opening post "If you want to change "tempo" TUT, change weight %.Problem solved."

    And yes,i'm totally opposed to the use of number counting i.e. tempo.There are far more important issues at hand when it comes to stimulating growth,as outlined in my previous post.
     
    #88 COBRA, Aug 20, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2005
  9. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

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    Performing a slow eccentric on a normal concentric set is of little value as eccentric strength is much greater than your concentric strength, so your really only taking a rest on the eccentric part of the rep. You should be controlling the descent though not just letting it drop.

    Eccentrics should be done on their own either with a spotter or if training alone, unilaterally on a machine preferably. Using at least 20% more weight then you would normally use with a concentric set.

    I believe slower repetitions are better at hitting the muscle, if you compare it to putting your hand in a fire, you could move your hand in and out of a flame fast as many times as you like with little chance of getting burnt, try holding it there for 4 seconds each time. :tu:
     
  10. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    Cobra, I was away for the weekend. I hope everyone has cleared everything up for you by now. I didn't bother to read through all the response. Just your first one to me where you missed the point again. Tempo is speed (at which different portions of the lift are executed). That's all the damn thing is. It's inherent in every lift you do whether you pay direct attention to it or not. You could lift moderately, fast and explosvely, or slow and controlled. This will largely be automatically determined by the weights you use. Lifting as fast as possible and lowering controlled but not slow is a tempo protocal. 4 seconds lifting, and 4 seconds lowering is a tempo protocol. Lifting 10 seconds up, 10 seconds down is a tempo protocol. Etc... ad naseum. TUT is a theory that asserts a specific amount of time for sets for optimal hypertrophy. I don't personally agree with it. And said nothing about it. Hopefully you understand it. As you have attempted to discuss it at length. Nor did I say that I felt slow lifting tempo was necessarily beneficil. I do believe that specific attention and chosen parameters in terms of speed for specific portions of the lift can be beneficial. They will vary depending on your loading scheme and goals. Necessary? Nope. And I never said it was.
     
  11. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    No, you could attempt to lift heavier weights for low reps at a slow cadence. It is more natural to lift at a faster pace for heavier weights, and seeking to lift them slowly would be foolish and not beneficial in my opinion for something like a 10x3 protocol. But it's not simply automatic.

    In terms of counting out numbers, you don't have to in order to pay attention to lifting speed. Since you used Waterubry as an example, I'll stick with that. He will often recommend lifting as fast as possible and a controlled but not slow negative (depending on loading scheme/% 1RM) For higher rep work he does recommend a slower lifting cadence.
     
  12. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    Something that might interest some people here. One benefit to lifting very explosively is improved mucles tonus (tension in the muscle when at rest). This is largely genetic, but it can be improved to a degree with heavy training with very explosive lifting.

    From Christian Thibadeadu: "Lifting heavy weights will also improve neural efficiency, which will help you recruit and stimulate more muscle fibers when you get back to bodybuilding training. It'll also improve your resting muscle tonus. I know, I know I used the dreaded "T" word. But tonus is a real phenomenon that’s due to a partial activation of your muscles even at rest. This is improved by training methods focusing on the nervous system (such as heavy lifting and explosive lifting). "

    I will ask him if he knows the details and physiolgical and neural mechanisms by which explosive work can improve tonus.
     
  13. Bluestreak

    Bluestreak Well-Known Member

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    On another web board, where I first used this nic, we had a thing called Rule 789. Rule 789 states that you can say just about anything in jest... sometimes it's a bit of a dig, but it's meant in fun... without further adieu, I bumped into this graphic on another web board where a similar argument was taking place.

    [​IMG]

    -R

    789...
     
  14. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    Excellent!!!
     
  15. COBRA

    COBRA Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Typical lawyer in waiting.Please don't waste your time manipulating words with me.It will not work.

    Let me fill you in on lawyers.They are experts on word manipulation.They will try their upmost to make the truth appear as lies,and the lies appear as truth.
    I believe you have a great future ahead of you jsbrook :D

    Don't take offense,it was all good natured.
     
  16. tennisball

    tennisball Well-Known Member

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    Well, in my other post I claimed you weren't a smartass....

    I might just retract my statement.


     
  17. COBRA

    COBRA Well-Known Member

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    Few words spring to mind.Immature,Inadequate,Insecure,Malnourished and Pansy.

    Rule 789.
     
    #97 COBRA, Aug 22, 2005
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2005
  18. Bluestreak

    Bluestreak Well-Known Member

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    Figger'd he'd miss it.

    -R
     
  19. Chameleon

    Chameleon Well-Known Member

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    :lol: LOL



    so you've carrried rule 789 over here now huh :p lol
     
  20. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    hahaha! (thumbs up sign-symbols always freeze and won't insert on JSF for some reason from my computer)
     
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