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PWO shake....for all those that don't spike. Time to include milk....

Discussion in 'Nutrition & Supplements' started by Gordo, Sep 22, 2005.

  1. Gordo

    Gordo Well-Known Member

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    I'm in the non-spiking camp. I go for an insulin release but not an insulin surge.

    This is not a spike versus no spike debate....save it for a different thread.

    What are the non-spikers using? Just curious?

    Me....

    Whey
    Oats (usually ground into oat flour)
    Half a banana (for taste mostly and I seem to get a bit of a boost)
    Strawberries or blueberries (for antioxidents and energy)
    Skim Milk....

    Here's an interesting study done on milk:
    http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Milk%20Final.pdf

    Milk apparantly has an interesting duality....in that it's low GI but a rather high Insulinaemic Index ( II ). Something to do with it's unique complex of amino acids (mostly BCAA's) and carbs and glucose working synergystically together.

    Look at the chart that compares the predicted results versus the expected. ~ a 5 fold increase in predicted versus actual tested. Milk is very good PWO and especially on a bulk.

    The other interesting note was that all milk products except cheese were insulin raising. So you may want to note that in timing when you drink or eat your dairy. Highly anabolic stuff.


    So in other words....SOME low GI foods are not as linear as we once thought in terms of their insulin response in the body. That's a pretty far reaching thought....
     
    #1 Gordo, Sep 22, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2005
  2. dodus

    dodus Well-Known Member

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    Interesting stuff man. I've been suspecting lately that milk products are pretty misunderstood as far as how they are processed by the body, and I'm starting to rethink my assumption that early on, before I switched to water PWO, the insane progress I was seeing was merely a result of "newbie gains"...maybe not.
     
  3. Gordo

    Gordo Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's funny....everyone always spouts off the same old song and dance....

    "I heard..."
    " Don't have milk because it's low GI so it's bad post-workout"
    " Don't have milk PWO because the casein slows down digestion"
    Problem is they heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who....

    Thing is milk is a unique combination of whey, casein, BCAA's, and lactose (the lactose is broken down first into half galactose and half glucose....the fact that the body has to further break down the galactose in the liver to glucose first is what makes it low GI). Everyone sees low GI and made a lot of assumptions about milk....missing the fact that it is rather high on the insulin index (II).

    The body splits up the different fractions so that the whey continues on giving you immediate protein recovery. The casein doesn't "hold things up" like everyone thinks and gives you a slower release of protein for recovery over the long haul. Perfect PWO I say :tu:
     
  4. BkRich

    BkRich Well-Known Member

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    What do you use to ground your oats and what amount do you use?
     
  5. mastover

    mastover Well-Known Member

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    I like to use one of those mini coffee bean grinders. Becomes a fine powder in a matter of seconds.

    How about trying something new PWO... NO PWO shake! That's right. Just down some bcaa's, Glutamine, maybe some citrulline malate, creatine (I like Beverly's Creatine Select) some anti-oxidants, then wait an hour until they do their job, and follow it up with a whole food meal consisting of lean meat, a complex carb source and some fats. This method is extremely effective if you train in the morning, while on a lean mass gain cycle.
     
  6. Bluestreak

    Bluestreak Well-Known Member

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    Depends on what your goals are at the time as to whether or not you want dairy products in your nutritional approach. For those on a cutting cycle, dairy is a plain-old no-no. It is no secret that milk products cause subcutaneous water and fat retention, preventing skin from thinning out and tightening against your lean mass. For some, this is more of a problem than it is for others. Me, personally? Milk products cause my skin to thicken quickly and very noticeably. I enjoy maintaining a tight, vascular, lean look because it really shows of what I've done thus far. To do this, I have to avoid dairy for the most part.

    On training days, the most dairy I ever have is a cup of lowfat, low sugar yogurt in the morning and 1/2 a tablespoon of butter in the small portion of noodles I have with dinner. That's the absolute most I can have - as soon as I throw even a single glass of milk into the mix, things go awry. You can use dairy if you like, but if you're cutting, I highly suggest you avoid it and see how you look without it - you can't measure dairy's effects on your body with a scale or calipers or a personal trainer. You can only measure it in the mirror.

    -R
     
  7. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    I'll play ignorant on this one...but carbs in general cause the body to hold water. Milk = Carbs Any chance that this could be what's causing the water retention, and not the dairy products?
     
  8. Bluestreak

    Bluestreak Well-Known Member

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    I won't argue with that... I am carb sensitive. I'm sure it's related to that somehow. I'm very careful to strategically place my carbohydrate intake at specific times of the day so as to utilize those carbs immediately for energy and glycogen replenishment. It's my belief that this minimizes my reaction to carbohydrate sensitivity.

    I've had four highly successful personal trainers (Swolecat among them, whom you all know I trust a great deal) either tell me these things about dairy and/or agree with my assessment of dairy products.

    Pursuant to this, I have specifically experimented with milk to find out - mainly because there are few things in life I enjoy more than a practically frozen, very cold glass of milk (throw some Oreos in the mix and the only thing better is sex). My personal threshold for milk is extremely low - it appears to be between 8~16 ozs. in 24 hours - and even that little bit appears to obscure vascularity significantly in my body. I don't know why - I don't care why - I just know that if I want my skin to maintain that "paper thin" look, I have to stay off the milk/dairy. When I let dairy slip back into the diet, I see it in the mirror.

    I have a portion of al dente noodles just about every day with my dinner... it gets my pasta fix in and one would think that's a no-no, but as long as I keep the meal ratios to that which Swolecat sets for me, I have no problems with just about every other form of carbohydrates - dairy seems to be an extreme sensitivity for me. For others, it may not be that way... I find it best left out of my diet.

    -R
     
  9. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    Interesting... :confused:
     
  10. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    AAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek:
     
  11. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...This would be nearly the exact route that contributed to my $150 per month supplement grocery bill. But unless you're using a HUGE straw and snorting all of those ingredients, it's still a PWO shake...with the BCAA's filling the protein role, and the glutamine for your carbs.
     
  12. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    Again, AAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek:
    For the record, my monthly supplement bill is right up there. :whistle:
     
  13. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

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    My monthly supplement bill is $0.00. :D
     
  14. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    How the hell do you swing that?
     
  15. mastover

    mastover Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. But, people throw all or most of the supps I listed INTO their PWO protein powder, malto, dex, and whatever. A waste of money, unless you include this shake as one of your daily meals. In that instance, it would be better to do on a cutting, or pre-contest phase. Sans the dex of course ;)
     
  16. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    First time responding to my own post. :lol: I still have about a 2 month supply of ingredients for the that recipe...more than that of some. I will admit that it's the most potent PWO that I've ever used. Cept, I add 10g of arginine to the mix. :D
     
  17. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

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    Quite simply. I don't use any supplements. My PWO meal is usually F/F turkey hot dogs on light white bread with F/F cheese and ketchup/mustard. I don't use Glutamine, Creatine, etc. And I have like 8 lbs. of dextrose left that I bought last year, but I don't use that either.

    I actually did just get fish oil capsules for like $8 last week, so I guess you could say I spend $3-4/mo. However, I bought those due to a suggestion from my doctor, not really for fitness reasons, although I know it may offer some.

    And as for this thread... I don't think milk is so bad PWO myself, or in general at all. I stopped worrying about what's ideal PWO a long time ago. I've tried it all and have seen little to no difference no matter what I consume PWO. And, I used to be anti-milk after reading what some professionals thought, but I spoke too soon (for myself at least) as taking it out of my diet did nothing for me. I don't drink a lot of it, but I have no problem whatsoever when I do.

    EDIT: When I was at my biggest, ever, about 15-20 pounds more than I am now, my PWO meal was a whey protein shake blended with ice and milk with a bowl of oatmeal and often a banana.
     
  18. Gordo

    Gordo Well-Known Member

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    That was a secret to me. How is this so. Can you offer up any documents to back this up? I'm not calling you out, I'd just like to learn more.

    I know excess sodium for a fact will draw water into the cell and cause retention (but when used correctly can maintain vascularity) but dairy?

    Other than milk brings more calories than water (okay a lot more) how does it smooth a person out????

    It really hasn't been detrimental to my bulk....which is on the slow but steady rate, still got my abs :tu: %bf has gone up very little and my waistline is holding at 30.5". I'm up from 138 to 141 over a good several weeks....baby steps but I'm in no rush and have no contest in my near future ;)

    I think your mileage might vary.... Maybe (if you are as carbo- sensitive as you say) spiking with dex and over-releasing insulin is causing more harm than good (fat retention)....just a thought (and that's assuming you're using dex....I don't really know). Sounds like with the help of your trainers that you know yourself best and obviously your advice wouldn't necessarily apply to everyone. Same goes for my suggestion to use milk. It's just a suggestion but it's backed by a pretty decent paper....it's only one study but a darn good one.

    Also, those who are lactose intolerant can totally disregard the dairy :p
    (bloating, suxs)

    ================================================

    I use a food processor and do up a big batch of oat flour. I grind it, sift it, grind it, sift it and then grind it again. It doesn't take too long. That way, I can use it for other stuff: like homemade protein bars, breading fish, oat pancakes, waffles etc...


    As for how much to include in your shake, well that's entirely dependant on your LBM and requirements....that's totally an individual thing.

    PWO:

    ~0.5 * LBM carbs
    ~.25 - .33 * LBM protein

    That's what I go by.

    No PWO shake, interesting idea Mastover. You've been at it a while I gather and you actually compete so I think I'll have to give this some serious thought.

    My PWO shake protocol has been pretty good....but I'm always willing to try new stuff out....it'd be boring if I always kept it the same....I'd probably stall as well.

    Also my PWO shake always goes towards my daily counts, so in essence, it's a meal.

    What's citrulline malate and what's it's purpose?


    Relax Doordude :lol: If you got something going that works for you, why change it now? It's only when things stall that you need to change it up a bit. Just keep these ideas in your back pocket for when you need them. ;)
     
    #18 Gordo, Sep 23, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2005
  19. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    Sounds good. As i've said, prior to me joining this forum I had no idea what a PWO drink was. After reading all the mumbo-jumbo about it I figured it was the only way to go. Whether or not i'm benefiting from it is unknown. I do however KNOW i've made some nice gains in the past 7 months. I've always used a protein supplement while training but even that has changed. The old school mainstay was egg protein. None of this whey, casein shit. I suppose i'm an easy mark for the advertisers. Either way, I don't plan on changing anything soon. My gains keep coming so it seems worth a few dollars to me at this point. :tu:
     
  20. Bluestreak

    Bluestreak Well-Known Member

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    Nope. I can't offer a single concrete shred of evidence other than my own empirical observations and the fact that I've had several trainers, one of whom specializes in competition preparation, concur with my assessment. Perhaps Swolecat will come by this post and enlighten me as to why exactly this is the case...

    -R
     

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