1. Have you installed the new JSF Mobile app? Check out all the details here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. One account & one avatar for all of JSF. Unified login and profile. Forum alerts on the main site, and more. Check out the details here: Forum & main site unified account feature is live!
    Dismiss Notice

My Bench Shirt Exploded!

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Eman7673, May 14, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jwdiho

    jwdiho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's not only that.
    Bench shirts were originally created as a safety device like lifting belts. Protecting the shoulder and pecs during heavy lifting.
    There's good in that evil little shirt.
     
  2. Eman7673

    Eman7673 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    0
    The good thing is, they help you bench more. The bad thing is that they tear your freaking arms apart, and leave you feeling sore for a few days, even after 4-5 reps.
     
  3. Bluestreak

    Bluestreak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    6,136
    Likes Received:
    16
    Because we all have opinions. A lack of hands-on experience is no reason not to form and express your own opinions, as long as they're reasonably well-informed and put forth as such.

    -R
     
  4. guava

    guava Elite Member
    Lifetime Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    12,604
    Likes Received:
    19
    cajunman, I think you had some valuable input into this thread. I don't think you were speaking intolerantly.

    Any equipment that is not standardized across all users is controversial.

    I think supplying identical running shoes to each marathon competitor would not be a bad idea. Same with golf, swimming, etc.
    I don't see how benching more with the aid of a shirt is a good thing. From what I've heard, shirts are only bad news, but I don't see how you could logically compete without one.
     
  5. Skoorb

    Skoorb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whatever is at work, if one can move more with a shirt, the shirt is assisting the movement.
    World record raw bench is around 733 or something like that. Shirted, it's 1008, which is a damn lot more. My 50% number was due to an oversight in mental functioning at the time; it's almost 40%. No, they aren't the same lifters. The guy who did 1008 with a shirt is reputed to have a raw max in the 600s. There was an article posted some months ago talking about how the bench max increased very slowly--until shirts came out, then it rocketed up.
    It has advanced very little--meaningfully one can argue it's not progressed at all. Although the "best shoes" now can cost $160 or more, the world's elite athletes continue to set records in 7-8 oz tiny pieces of nothing that do barely more than protect against puncture wounds. Indeed, there has been absolutely no proof whatsoever that the shoes of today vs the shoes of 30 years ago make a) injuries less likely to occur in a biomechanically sound runner and b), more importantly, make a person faster. Shoes do not increase speed, they lessen it. The only exception to this is spiked shoes for track use. The best marathoner today could run about as fast in racing flats from 30 years ago. A great runner can run the crap out of 99.9% of people in his barefeet. However, with a bench shirt a pretty good, but not spectacular powerlifter could take out a non-shirted pro. A decent club cyclist could take out a tour de francer, if that tour de francer was riding on a $80 huffy. Shoes are an almost meaningless part of the performance equation in running.
    Not agreeing with you doesnt' make it garbage. I assert that the world powerlifting records now are _substantially and massively and unequivocally_ greater with shirts than they are without them. That is an obvious fact . The sport could do fine witout them, but the poundages would not increase very quickly. Allowing them is akin to introducing 100m competition on downhill courses. In time, the courses would be more and more downhill, following the trend of these shirts encouraging more and more weight moved. Shirts are a non-integral-to-the-sport addition that has substantially changed its course.
    It isn't the same because golf clubs are an integral, necessary part of golf, just as a bike is to a cyclist. In these cases, the equipment gets better and the athlete's results are better. Bench shirts are not an integral part of powerlifting and the activity can exist perfectly without them
     
  6. Coachese

    Coachese Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,565
    Likes Received:
    0
    Zola Budd? Your marathoner fiance'? Both runners. Zola Budd (with shoes or not) set the world record for 5000m. You? Not a runner (I presume).

    1. I said I was a weightlifting noob -- not a running noob. I also fly fish, collect beer cozies and read books without pictures.

    2. Perhaps we got off on the wrong (bare) foot. I made a joke about bench shirts (actually two jokes). My experience with bench shirts could fit on the end of a No. 2 pencil. Had you merely explained what a bench shirt was, I would have been satisfied. Yet, you took the opportunity to pile on me and others stood up for me -- which seemed to only froth you up more. I was only stirring the pot.

    3. I read through your posts. You clearly have a lot of knowledge re: powerlifting, weight training, etc. However, until you post about something else, I will regard my knowledge of running, endurance training, Kant, house music, UCLA sports and Shimano Components (while hardly world-class) superior to that of yours. I'm sorry, this is as hard as I can come. Grrrrrrr!

    Please realise that 95% of this is tongue in cheek as we are on an anonymous website 'arguing' over essentially, well, nothing.

    Good day sir!

    :gl:
     
  7. Banditfist

    Banditfist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    2,491
    Likes Received:
    3
    So what is the difference between steroids and creatine?
    Other than the legality?
    Creatine is occurs naturally as do steroids (test-based).

    I am impressed with raw lifts and I am impressed with shirted. I am impressed with myself. I don't use a weight belt. I don't use knee wraps. I do use wrist straps. I am an f'ing hypocrit!

    Please, I did not bring up the steriod thing to get in a big pissing match. Much of the arguments here can be applied to them and other arguments. IMO, this is a powerlifting argument with people who are doing bodybuilding who don't really understand the difference. The goals of the two people are different.
     
  8. jwdiho

    jwdiho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know I'm arguing a minor point, but what the hell, I'm just waiting to start at work.

    Like I said, it's not the golf clubs themselves. It's the titanium and other -nium metals they are putting in clubs. Golf can exist without titanium. Titanium is not integral. Make the clubs out of wood. Just like in powerlifting, the new technology has destroyed old courses making them a drive and chip affair.
     
  9. Coachese

    Coachese Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,565
    Likes Received:
    0
    Drive for show, put for dough Johnny Boy!
     
  10. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
    Lifetime Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,137
    Likes Received:
    14
    Steroids work.
     
  11. jwdiho

    jwdiho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    0
    THANK YOU! Why is it that just because someone found steroids illegal for use in powerlifting and other sports, they have been given such a BAD reputation and condemned so completely. Steroids are used regularly in the medical profession treating everything from rashes to asthma to life threatening organ rejection in transplantation. And yes, they are used for improvement in mass as well.

    What if tommorow they deem whey protein illegal. Should we ostracize everyone that has drunk a protein shake? What about creatine, or NoXplode or a dozen others?

    Probably the wrong thread to bring this up so I'll just stop.
     
  12. jwdiho

    jwdiho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    0
    And John Daly is so popular for his delicate around the green work, right? (although he does have a great short game)
     
  13. Coachese

    Coachese Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,565
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, you can add golf to my list as well.

    Daly can't putt worth a sh*t. That is why (among other reasons) he has 'only' won 5 times out of 371 tournaments on tour. He won the 1991 PGA and the 95 British because he happened to get hot with the putter. I watched him live here in SF in October at the AMEX. Know why he lost to Tiger in the playoff? Missed a 4 footer.

    He is popular because a) he hits the ball a mile; b) he is a 'good ole boy'; c) he is a classic American underdog in a country club sport.

    If Daly were truly 'popular' as in marketing 'popular' and could get his fans to buy his stuff (like Tiger) then his major sponsor wouldn't be Lumber 86 or Piggly Wiggly!

    :gl:
     
  14. Fender

    Fender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    I use wrist wraps too. The first time ever on Tuesday.:o :o :o
     
  15. Skoorb

    Skoorb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is why, more than before, I can at least appreciate one side of the pro-shirt argument. As I've gotten into cycling a bit, i can see that buying equipment is fun. Although records now are not applicable to records of yesteryear, such as fastest time-trial ever and things like that, I have to wonder if the sport would be just a bit more boring if all competitors were allowed to ride just the same $300, 28 lb bike. It would even it up, but there is a certain amount of fun by tweaking components and buying new gadgets. It drives interest.
     
  16. Coachese

    Coachese Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,565
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yuck. They already have Nascar.

    :nono:
     
  17. cajunman

    cajunman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    0
    :bang: :bang: :bang: why, oh why....

    Mile: 5:55
    10 Miles: 1:13:15
    Marathon: 3:52:54
    Can you run these times in dress shoes? Can you run these times in Chuck Taylors? Can you run these times barefoot? Whatever is at work, if one can move faster in a shoe, the shoe is assisting the movement…If you assert that your choice of running shoe does not assist your movement, I have a challenge for you. PM me the weight of your running shoes, I will provide you with footwear of equal weight, and see if you can hit that 10 mile time…let me know how much money you want to put on this...

    Do you have numbers to back this up or are you just throwing out an assertion as fact without any knowledge? (Ano-rectal vocalization...)
    Fact: at the NERB, Jeremy Hoornstra and Rock Lewis did 605 and 580, respectively at 239 and 240 (242 class). This would have put them at 3&4 in the Top 20 rankings of shirted (single-ply) lifters in the USAPL, and placed 2nd and 4th in the IPF's World Bench Press Championships (single-ply). They would have come in 7th and 8th at the WPC Worlds (multi-ply, unlimited), and won their weight class at the APF Nationals (US arm of WPC, multi-ply, unlimited). Nick Winters and Mike Wolfe in the SHW did 650 and 600 at the NERB. This would have put them at 2 and 8 in the Top 20 rankings of shirted (single-ply) lifters in the USAPL, and 8th and 9th in the IPF's World Bench Press Championships (single-ply). OK, I'm getting tired of doing the legwork for you...suffice it to say, this is NOT a true statement, and unless you have names and numbers to justify this statement of fact you are making, I think you should back away from this assertion...

    It’s not garbage because someone doesn’t agree with me. What is garbage is two people in this thread who have made claims as to what lifting in a shirt is like – “swimming being pulled behind a boat”, “riding a bike with a motor on it” – who have NEVER worn a shirt, and when someone who has says “no, it’s NOT like that”, they keep on repeating it. What is garbage is someone who has no hands-on experience, only hearsay, deliberately pass on the opportunity to learn something from someone who HAS hands-on experience and tell THAT PERSON how things are. You are entitled to your opinion, but when I explain the way things work, the ways in which your analogies don’t apply, the ways in which the same charges could be leveled against other sports equipment, your apparent misunderstanding of the structure of the sport of powerlifting and the various powerlifting federations, and you still want to sit here and lecture me, then that is garbage. I don’t know where your bias or disdain for powerlifters comes from, a bias and disdain that is evident in other threads, and frankly I don’t care…but I don’t respect someone who has nothing of value to add to a thread, only a desire to come in and piss all over the place without learning a damn thing. That is what is garbage.

    :bang: :bang: :bang:
     
  18. Skoorb

    Skoorb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    0
    I could achieve that mile time in barefeet. I am not sure I'd want to do it because my feet are soft, like most people's. I am not a barefoot runner. Same applies for the 10 mile and marathon times. The shoes that I have worn do not assist with my speed, but rather personally my comfort, because I'm used to something with padding. In actual fact, I've been running lately in $5 aqua socks, which do nothing but prevent puncture wounds and are no more an assist to running than a 30 year old training flat would have been. Shoes do impact performance, just like I couldn't sprint quickly in steel-toe work boots, but they do not increase it. The reason most elites will use a shoe instead of barefoot is for comfort's sake and that landing on something like a nail when barefoot really sucks. They are using cheap shoes, though. The first US woman to ever break 2:20 in a marathon did so a couple of weeks ago in shoes that cost less than $100. I think the winner of the boston marathon recently used shoes even cheaper than that.

    For somebody without a biomechanical deficiency, shoes will not increase speed. The more shoe, the slower the runner will be. Now, if somebody comes out with shoes that somehow actively make the person faster, then you'll see debate, and that is what we've seen a bit of with Spira, a company that makes shoes with springs in it. If those shoes somehow made a person 30 seconds faster on the mile, many people would call for their abolishment in competition and many people would run off to the shoe store and buy a pair! Eventually you'd have "active shoe" and "non-active shoe" events, rather like you've got in powerlifting with shirt assisting and non-assisting, but running isn't there yet.
    Mendelson has, I think, the raw bench record at 713. How many people can bench more than 713 with a shirt? Considering the record is 1008, quite a few, so that is what I mean.
    I take your point. When it really comes down to it, this is what I think happened: Some guys were sitting in the gym thinking "Damn, this is really tricky raising my bench strength. I'm so tired of the slow gains. If only I could fiure out a way to get my shirt to help, I'd be able to surely throw a hundred lbs on my bench." and presto, out comes Inzer with a bench shirt. Eventually somebody will be training for the tour de france thinking "Damn, these hills are really tough. If only I could fit a tiny motor in my rear wheel and a solar panel on my helmet, I could get a few extra watts when climbing hills and get some faster splits.".
     
  19. John Stone

    John Stone Every day is Leg Day
    Staff Member Owner

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    20,867
    Likes Received:
    75
    I'd like to see this thread remain open. For the most part people have been pretty well behaved. There's no need to bang heads and get upset, it's just an Internet discussion. Everyone please take a deep breath and realize that you're not going to necessary get everyone agree with your PoV, or even consider it.

    Thanks. :)
     
  20. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
    Lifetime Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,137
    Likes Received:
    14
    See the thing you might be missing here is that he can run pretty close to those times. I used to run cross country in Adidas 'Antelopes'

    [​IMG]

    and then a year or so later I was running similar distances overland in WWII pattern (e.g. Corcoran) Jump Boots.

    [​IMG]

    The difference was probably less than you seem to think. And Jump boots have steel shanks and are not light. You can run almost as fast in Jump Boots.

    Can most lifters bench almost as much with a shirt? My brother, the former shirt-using competition power lifter, says no.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page