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Ketogenic Diet for Weight Loss

Discussion in 'Fat Loss/Cutting' started by mastover, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. mastover

    mastover Well-Known Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046

    Thinking of going keto for weight loss?? It offers no benefits over moderate/high carb diets. In fact it may be detrimental on two fronts - emotional (severe mood changes, including amplifying depression) and down regulation in metaboiic rate.
    I have never been an advocate of any "Atkins" type, or low carb approach no matter what the goal for any lengthy period of time.
     
  2. Jaer

    Jaer Well-Known Member

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    The one thing I hear often noted as the benefit of the low carb, Atkins style is the satiation of the fats--most people say they feel full more, and thus are better able to keep a calorie deficit without feeling hungry. I've had friends do Atkins, and they usually report success in that they simply can't eat a lot while on the diet. Hence the supposed Atkins claim "eat how much you want and still lose weight!"

    I really don't get that. I can still massively over eat on a high-fat, high-protein diet.

    Having tried it a few times, I don't have any emotional issues, I don't have any less energy, my workouts don't seem to suffer...but I also don't really lose weight.

    At some point I might try a carb-cycling diet that involved a day or two of super low carb, but from my own experience, there isn't anything special about going low carb for an extended period of time.

    Jaer
    missed fruit. Particularly the smoothies.
     
  3. Robert2006

    Robert2006 Active Member

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    I doubt the average person is able to notice mood swings. Or even drops in energy.

    I bet the average angry bear thinks he is an angel.
     
  4. Jaer

    Jaer Well-Known Member

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    Really? Cause my wife goes a day or two low-carb and she's falling asleep on the couch at 8:00 and complains about being low energy and draggy all day. I would think most people notice that immediately--it's one of the most common complaints of the first week or two of Induction Atkins.

    Mood swings might be more difficult to notice--that usually takes reflection and consideration.

    In reflecting back on all the times I've ever gone low carb, I can't say I notice a difference except that I develop a sweet tooth. At the end of the night, I crave desserts, which is not something I want if I'm not low-carbing.

    Jaer
    also notices that when he gets to about mile 4 on a run after being on Atkins, he gets really tired and slow and draggy. If he's not low carbing, he doesn't hit that wall.
     
  5. Vaughan Starr

    Vaughan Starr Member

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    Is it all cals in/out? I don't profess to know. I recall watching a BBC doc on Youtube called 'Why are thin people not fat?', which overfed a lot of thin people to see what changes occurred in their bodies. None put on weight according to the cals in/out model. One bloke put on nearly all LBM even though he wasn't doing any kind of training. Then there are those native populations who seem to really get F'd up by carbs. Me? I love carbs (which is undoubtedly why I am 276.2 lbs). But whatever works for the individual I guess.
     
  6. Jaer

    Jaer Well-Known Member

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    I don't think cals in vs. cals out can be the entire equation for the simple fact that the macro-nutrients (carbs, protein, fat) do not metabolize in the body the same way. The body reacts differently on a high protein diet vs. a high carb diet.

    Jaer
    also doesn't think the same diets work for the same people, nor will hitting the perfect ratio be total magic.
     
  7. madamert

    madamert Well-Known Member

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    The basic principle of a low carb diet is to prevent insulin release. The idea is that insulin drives tissues to absorb sugar from the blood and store it (and so you don't die from high blood sugar...). If muscle sucks it up, you get glycogen. If fat sucks it up, it gets more complex but the outcome is that your fat cells get fatter and so do you. So, if one is trying to get thin insulin release can be problematic.

    Further, more recent research suggest that insulin release strongly blocks the leptin pathway and prevents satiety (video of a talk by Dr. Lustig that goes into all the science):

    http://vimeo.com/29402977

    In the brain, satiety is controlled by sensing for leptin which is released by fat cells. Unfortunately, when insulin is introduced most people's brains can no longer detect leptin and in effect, your body believes that it's starving (i.e. it things no leptin = no body fat!).

    People feel tired during the first few weeks (up to 8 for some) of being on a low carb body b/c they now must use fats to fuel them at the cellular level. This is much less efficient than using carbs for fuel but the body will adapt over a period of time by increasing mitochondrial density in cells which in turns boost ATP production and offsets the lower efficiency.
     
  8. Vaughan Starr

    Vaughan Starr Member

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    Trouble with the whole carbs cause insulin rises line of thinking is that protein also causes insulin rises that are pretty close to comparable. Something which most of the low carb proponents avoid saying. Of course this is not to say that by whatever mechanism, carbs don't effect some people more than others. But on the whole lowering insulin thing, the only effective way that I have read of is fasting. But I don't claim expertise on any of this.
     
  9. madamert

    madamert Well-Known Member

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    The insulin rise associated with excess protein consumption is vastly more moderate than carbohydrate.

    Further, low carb diets should be more accurate described as near zero carb, low protein, high fat. Low protein (~25% of daily calories) nearly eliminates protein breakdown into carbohydrates which in turn causes the release of insulin. This means that on a typical low carb diet protein consumption generally doesn't stimulate significant insulin release.

    Generally, insulin release due to protein occurs with significant over consumption and carb consumption (which magnifies the limited proteins insulin response).

    You're misinformed regarding fasting as the only way to lower insulin.
     
  10. Vaughan Starr

    Vaughan Starr Member

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    I don't know mate. I've read on a few diff sites, some quite low carb in their nature like Mark's Daily Apple, what I gave to you.

    Here's a good link: Insulin, an undeserved bad reputation http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

    When looked at over the long term (greater than 12 months) all diets fail miserably. For the reason that the overwhelming majority can't stick to them. I mean 75% of you cals from fat? Yikes! There's no way the majority could stick to that long term. But I'm not singling the low carbers out. Nearly every diet has its own insane restrictions which practically guarantee failure over the long haul.

    Morbidly obese individuals who have their stomachs zipped tiny, all lose weight, simply by virtue of the cal restriction this brings about. Bodybuilders of different generations all got lean following a range of different dieting regimens. All of which shows that there definitely is no one set of restrictions (diet) that can be said to work.

    Do carbs or excess cals in general affect people differently to a degree? No doubt. But I don't think that there is some magic formula of consumption that can be said to be best. Which for some low carb adherents is a bit like bad mouthing L Ron Hubbard at a Scientology convention I know. But, there it is.
     
  11. madamert

    madamert Well-Known Member

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    Hello Vaughan Star,

    I'm going to reply to your statements in a different order than you made them.

    "When looked at over the long term (greater than 12 months) all diets fail miserably. For the reason that the overwhelming majority can't stick to them. I mean 75% of you cals from fat? Yikes! There's no way the majority could stick to that long term. But I'm not singling the low carbers out. Nearly every diet has its own insane restrictions which practically guarantee failure over the long haul."

    First, if every possible diet fails, why are you here discussing them? The logical conclusion of your statement is that diets are pointless. Second, your statement actually refers to a study from the 1950's that showed that if an individual went on a specific diet for a fixed period of time and then reverted to previous behavior the individual would regain the weight. I completely agree with this concept. If your current diet leads to being overweight and you only temporarily change your diet it will only lead to temporary results.

    Third, the point of the low carb, high fat diet is to increase satiety so that it can become a permanent lifestyle change. Per the video link in my previous comment, insulin decreases satiety and induces calorie consumption. Reducing insulin increases satiety and decreases consumption.


    "Morbidly obese individuals who have their stomachs zipped tiny, all lose weight, simply by virtue of the cal restriction this brings about. Bodybuilders of different generations all got lean following a range of different dieting regimens. All of which shows that there definitely is no one set of restrictions (diet) that can be said to work."

    In the case of gastric bypass or stomach staples, this is a forced and permanent lifestyle change. The individual still would love to consume more food, but they are physically unable. This has nothing to do with sustainable diet changes.

    Body builders are a unique group. They are willing to sacrifice nearly anything to attain their desired physique. For most, this means being consistently hungry and irritable during weight loss phases. Most people would not put up with this type of lifestyle.

    Sure, there are many ways to lose weight. The question is what can the general population stick to consistently? I doubt a body building life style or gastric bypass surgery are good options.


    "Do carbs or excess cals in general affect people differently to a degree? No doubt. But I don't think that there is some magic formula of consumption that can be said to be best."

    Unless you're diabetic, everyone's body responds to carbohydrates in the exact same way. Insulin is released and your body stores blood sugar.

    Yes, there are certain types of consumption that are best depending on goal. Ask body builder what they cut from their diet to lose weight. The answer isn't the number of calories.


    "Which for some low carb adherents is a bit like bad mouthing L Ron Hubbard at a Scientology convention I know. But, there it is."

    This is an ad hominem attack and has no place in any discussion. For shame.

    "I don't know mate. I've read on a few diff sites, some quite low carb in their nature like Mark's Daily Apple, what I gave to you.

    Here's a good link: Insulin, an undeserved bad reputation http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319"

    This is comparing a 100% carb diet vs. a 100% protein diet. This doesn't apply to a zero carb, low protein, high fat diet which is what atkins and most "low carb" diets actually recommend.

    Actually, what this website shows is that 100% carb diet approximately equals a 100% protein diet. This makes logical sense, excess protein is broken down into carbohydrates; WHICH THE ARTICLE CLEARLY STATES.
     
  12. Vaughan Starr

    Vaughan Starr Member

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    I don't reckon everybody responds to carbs the exact same way. I talked earlier of a BBC Doc Why Are Thin People Not Fat? Their results were all over the shop. And then you have Native populations which really seem to respond badly to carbs. Yes, everybody produces insulin, just like when you work out with weights, everybody breaks down muscle fibers and builds bigger ones. But in the same way that not everyone who lifts weights looks the same, people can have quite different final results to the ingestion of different macro ratios or cal levels. This should be obvious.

    My point on the failure of low carb diets and all other diets, was that trying to shoe horn an ideology of eating into reality will eventually fail. Sure, you will have a few zealots that will stick with anything. But the overwhelming majority don't. Your affronted statement about satiety and low carb diets is equally as foolish as one who advocates counting every cal, and spacing meals out, and eating a set no. of different macros, in the respect that for the majority, you just can't do it long term. And that is ultimately what matters.

    I'm all for people eating in a healthy fashion. And if you are one of the few zealots who can stick to something that is completely at odds with real world people living real world lives, then more power to you. But you are a tiny, tiny, minority, and your approach fails for the majority. So rather than getting all precious over this unarguable fact, why not abandon advice that fails over and over again, and instead, look to different ways that the majority can adopt?

    And as for ad hominem attacks and for shame? Pull your head out of your backside mate. You're carrying on like I insulted your God, your Political Party and your family lineage, all because I have a few doubts about the way carbs are demonized. Look, if you want to eat 75% fat everyday, go to it. Its a free country. But if you seriously think that in anyway this can be taken up and held by the majority, you have let dietary ideology separate you from reality.
     
  13. digitalnebula

    digitalnebula Plagiarist

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    Not true. I have been training for natural bodybuilding competition for a while now.

    A typical day has me eating in the 2600 calorie range.
    And better than 30% of my cals are from carbs....and on Saturdays, I basically eat as many carbs as I can stand....(its called a refeed).
    On certain training days....that ratio exceeds 40% of cals to carbs...

    I am anything but hungry. In fact, I use weight gainer twice a day so that I can hit my macros....:lol:

    I have been eating a bodybuilder's "diet" for months....

    I have lost over 70 pounds of body fat and added over 15 pounds of muscle this year.....and have been on a caloric deficit the whole way.

    Carb restrictive diets are doomed to end in one thing eventually: catabolism.

    And the reason 99.99% of "diets" fail is because:
    #1 - people can't stick to *anything*
    #2 - the "diet" has a fundamental flaw (like ketogenic nonsense) which make them unsustainable....

    All fad diets are perpetuated though marketing and book sales.....and they rely on the zealots who get results for one month to perpetuate the insanity....

    Example: All you hear these days is Paleo this....and Paleo that....the claim being that a carb restrictive diet allows you to burn fat faster.

    The facts:
    There isn't a single medical study done that substantiates this claim that wasn't entirely predicated upon the dreaded "self-reported data." Ever.

    On the other hand, the OP gave you just one of the *many* medical studies done to show that its not only a baseless claim.....but has "...several adverse metabolic and emotional effects."


    Edit: And this is the perfect example of what catabolism leads to....

    The body runs out of traditional energy sources (food and bodyfat) and starts breaking down muscle.
     
    #13 digitalnebula, Nov 12, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  14. gazareth

    gazareth Senior Member

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    It's taken me about 7 years of flip-flopping, false dawns and failed diets to realize the truth: the best diet is the one that works for you, and the one that you can stick to.
     
  15. Jaer

    Jaer Well-Known Member

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    I pretty much agree. However, I also like to experiment, and some of the experiments get pretty whacky. Which is the point.

    I have had great success at loosing weight on low carb. I have also had times where I have done low carb for 6 weeks and lost nothing. But then, I'm one of those rare individuals who can still massively over-eat fatty, meat foods, so the idea that the high-fat diets are more satiating and thus over-all consumption goes down...yeah, not for me.

    I don't react super-well to low carb, but I don't react poorly.

    There is no magic ratio. No mystic perfect diet. There are plenty of things that work, some only in the short term. I don't think that is a bad thing. A diet that is extremely effective for 6-8 weeks, but unsustainable long term isn't bad--so long as the person doesn't lose all progress when off.

    For example, imagine if in two months someone could lose 20 pounds, 90% fat mass. But then there needed to be a month off, or even 2 months off, for mental freedom. During that time, only 2 pounds are gained back. Two months back on the extreme diet, another 18 or so pounds.

    Some people would say this is a bad diet, too extreme, unsustainable. But the weight loss time isn't supposed to be sustainable; at some point, we want to stop losing weight cause we'd hit the goal. As long as the extreme period isn't detrimental to health, these sprint-and-walk diets are not bad.

    Jaer
    just doesn't do well with the moderation between the extreme.
     
  16. madamert

    madamert Well-Known Member

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    A couple of question for you digital nebula:

    1. Do you count your calories?
    2. Under what conditions do you believe that muscle catabolism takes place? (i.e. do you believe that on a near zero carb diet it's impossible to add muscle, etc.?)
     
  17. digitalnebula

    digitalnebula Plagiarist

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    1. Yes.

    2. For a detrained athlete or total novice....lean mass can be gained under almost any circumstances at a caloric surplus....but I have no scientific study of these types of athletes on a zero carb diet....so I don't know. Impossible is a very stong word. Few things are impossible.

    But is a carb-restrictive diet optimal or superior for training and adding lean mass? Here is a medical study that say no:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23905657

    "In conclusion, a low-CHO diet reduces both performance and total aerobic energy provision during supramaximal exercise."


    I don't think anyone is disputing that you can lose fat....get in shape....gets results or whateverthehell eating Paleo/Atkins/whatever fad diet that puts you in a caloric deficit....that is almost always going to work....no matter the methodology. You expend more cals than you eat....you lose fat! Yay!
    But their claim that low-carb is somehow better than everything else....its 100% horseshit. And I will reiterate.....there isn't a single medical study done that shows that low carb burns fat faster or is even equal when it comes to muscular performance. Period.

    :deadhorse:

    This is my final response.....and I am only responding because I hate the spread of bunk in the name of book sales. :mad:

    Wanna lose fat? Eat less cals than maintenance. There isn't some triple-top secret method that you can only learn by buying Dr. Doofenschmirtz f*cking book.
     
    #17 digitalnebula, Nov 15, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  18. madamert

    madamert Well-Known Member

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    Hello Digitalnebula,

    I agree with you that you don't burn more calories on low carb diets. To your body, calories are calories. (I certainly didn't claim this in any of my posts)

    Now here is where our thinking diverges. In terms of dietary compliance, I claim that low carb diets are better. The reason for this is the interplay of insulin, leptin, and satiety. In my view:

    carbs->insulin->blocks leptin signaling->body thinks it's starving->leads to hunger->overconsumption of calories

    Conversely:

    no carbs->no insulin->strong leptin signaling->body thinks it's full all the time->satiety->less consumption.

    So in my view, no carbs leads to naturally lower consumption of food which leads to weight loss.

    I commend you for being able to stick to your diet and meet your goals! But I personally believe that most people would not be willing to invest the time/energy/willpower to count calories and stick to a diet (i.e. most diets fail/etc.). This is because (IMO) when they eat carbs they block leptin which leads to consistent hunger.

    The appeal of low carb to me is that it's an autoregulatory process. One can eat as much fat/protein as desired to reach satiety, but satiety comes much sooner b/c insulin isn't blocking leptin. This is what I claim is superior about low carb diets.

    Also, I'd like to comment on your linked study. In this work they took athletes that have been eating a traditional diet (i.e. lots of carbs), put them on a low carb diet for 48 hours, and then see how they performed aerobically vs. baseline. The result is that they perform poorly. This is exactly what I would expect to happen, they haven't become fat adapted (i.e. increase mitochondria) which takes weeks. This is certainly a major disadvantage of the low carb approach. It definitely takes a significant time commitment which may make it less attractive for some.
     
  19. digitalnebula

    digitalnebula Plagiarist

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    Now you are getting into psychology.....which if any of us had the answers for....we would be trillionaires....:lol:

    Also, a carb isn't a carb. Just like a fat isn't a fat....and a protein isn't a protein....

    You eat processed sugar.....sure, you are going to be hungry because its garbage. You can't tell me that someone who eats at a small caloric deficit that chooses to get their carbs from decent sources (beans, oats, fibrous veggies, fruit) is doomed to fail becuase they are going to feel like they are starving to death....:lol:
    If they are eating a proper nutrition plan at a reasonable caloric deficit and they feel like they are starving....it's completely mental. Or they don't know what the hell they are doing and are eating at a 1500 calorie per day deficit....

    The overwhelming number of people who are currently eating a caloric deficit are totally ignorant of what a decent nutrition plan looks like and are starving themselves in eating <1000 cals per day...that's why they are hungry. Not because they are eating beans....:lol:

    I eat 280 carbs on training days.....and *way* more than that when I do refeeds on Saturdays....and I am *never* hungry. Ever. And I have lost over 60 pounds of bodyfat this year eating as many carbs as possible while still hitting my PRO and FAT requirements.

    In fact, I use weight gainer because I can't eat all my macros in solid food....the exact opposite issue as being hungry.

    If you eat right, there is no reason to be hungry.

    inb4 genetics is the new reason...:rolleyes:

    People fail on diets for two reasons:
    1. They don't know what they are doing and set up a nutrition plan that is doomed by its fundamental makeup. (see: 200 pound guy eating 900 cals per day)
    2. The majority of people can't stick to *anything* for a significant amount of time. (see: the person who tries something for 2 weeks and changes it....tries something else for a week and changes it......on the plan for 5 days....cheat meal....back on for 3 days....cheats again....)

    If low carb is your preference.....awesome...have at it and good luck.
    Let me know how those headaches and that 3-8 week "hazing" period that the Paleos talk about works out.

    No matter what you choose....if you actually stick to it and it is a caloric deficit....you will lose bodyfat.
     
    #19 digitalnebula, Nov 15, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013

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