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How do you know if you are doing to much weight training..

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Monkey Boy, Jan 21, 2008.

  1. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Yes, but there is a lot of play in that data. Usually the experiments where lean gets you longevity require a level of caloric restriction which also gets in the way of having a normally energetic life, let alone having muscle.

    Humans are not mice in a lab cage. Humans run certain orthopedic risks - they go up and down stairs, they pick up things. If you do the caloric restriction on humans at the level that gets the big longevity benefit, then you get wholesale sarcopenia starting at age 65 in men, and in women you can get osteoporosis added on top of that. By the time that person is 85, they are frail and falling down can easily kill them. There is a tendency for a frail elderly person with a low muscle mass to get a whole lot of complications piled on top of a broken bone in a fall which would not really trouble a normally muscled adult.

    Very lean people also have to be a lot more careful about lifting heavy (you can ask mastover about this - he confronts it in his training as a pro bodybuilder).

    So if you thought you were going to cut your calories to about 67% of the usual BMR (which is the sort of thing that gets the big longevity benefit) and have a long happy life, it's probably not so simple for humans. If you live in a padded cage for the rest of your life, there is every expectation that you would live the longest. The trouble is if you have to do that to get the big longevity benefit then maybe you would rather do something else.

    There is also the link to Alzheimer's which is not widely appreciated because it is relatively new. The leanest people have a significantly higher risk of Alzheimer's. Wow. What a fringe benefit. Of course, studies of mice in cages would not really pick that up.

    Then there is the increased susceptibility to infection. Recent studies show that infectious diseases (in particular tuberculosis) are significantly more infectious for lean people. This is sort of obvious once you realize that the immune system runs off fat for fuel. With nasty drug resistant diseases on the rise, you might not want to get lean enough to get any of this.

    And we have not talked about the health risks from eating disorders - we are only talking about risks for very lean people, as opposed to pathologically lean people.

    So you can be too thin. This doesn't mean obesity is the answer, being really fat didn't get any safer. It just means what the life insurance tables have shown for a long time - you want to be on the lean side, but not by that much.
     
  2. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Where does the average person live? Around my house I am lifting log sections for splitting which weigh in the 120-240 pound range for about an hour once or twice a week. And for those who think the balance training is silly - a few weeks ago lifting these meant lifting them on a slope with spots of black ice on it.

    But that's not really the point of the strength and strength endurance. The real reason to lift heavy in the gym is so that your heaviest lifting in life is in the gym. Your orthopedic risk is all concentrated in a safely controlled environment where it makes you very strong compared to what you need for your life.

    So when you are out of the gym, everything you really have to do - pick up a few gallons of milk from the grocery store, pushing on heavy revolving doors, whatever - or more importantly catching yourself should you fall - is all tiny compared to what you can do. It is that much less likely that you will ever injure yourself in real life.

    And then there is the fact that the more muscle you have, the more positive control you have over your metabolism. Negative control of your metabolism (through diet) can sometimes be more powerful than using muscle mass to control the metabolism, but it is always more complicated. If you eat really close to maintenance for many years, then you have to eat really close to perfect nutrition. If you can burn off more calories through exercise, you can give yourself a bigger nutritional margin of error.
     
  3. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    Okay, I see what you're saying about the orthopedic side of things as hav read before squats can make you less susceptible to needing a hip replacement in old age.

    But I guess you could do weightlifting and get these benefits without the high calorie and high protein approach - is that not just about vanity and trying to turn oneself into a muscle man ?

    I.e. could you not just do a decent weights programme and get these orthopedic benefits, and get some shape and muscle tone whilst at a more normal calorie and protein level without using up your "engine" as much as the high calorie and high protein approach and the seeming cancer risks of a diet hight in meat and dairy products ? There also wouldn't be the need for bulking and cutting with such an approach.

    So I guess what I'm saying is there do seem to be some long term health risks with the whole high protein, high calorie, lets get muscly and buff approach which is now more and more promoted by the supplements and fitness industries as being the must have look. Being on such a road myself - i.e. weight training, high protein diet etc. due bascally to vanity on my part it is something I wonder about - are young guys getting suckered into a potentially unhealthy diet in the long term in the search for more muscle on their frames ?
     
  4. chicanerous

    chicanerous Elite Member
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    Absolutely, but I think, for the most part, they are making a conscious choice to be unhealthy about it. There's no suckering involved, unless it's self-delusion. If you spend any time reading fitness related literature, you're going to have an idea of what healthy dietary choices are. You are also going to have an idea of what the most expedient ways of gaining mass are. The two aren't synonymous.
     
  5. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    You are preaching to the choir on this one. Resistance training is the most efficient and effective means of building muscle mass.

    While I am far from my past levels of muscle mass, I still have more to lose before I am concerned with falls or can't make lifts required around house. I have refused to open a fire place door for over 40 years, I would rather avoid the mess. I imagine I am more average for not using a wood fireplace and carrying 240lbs of wood each week in the USA. The gym can be a better and safer place to obtain or maintain muscle mass, I agree.
     
  6. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    Yeah, for this reason I do wonder for example if the title "Men's Health" is a misnomer. After all the raison d'etre of the magazine is to promote muscly and buff physiques as the ideal. The only way to achieve such a physique is usually via high consumption of meat and dairy products, which wouldn't appear to be an optimal diet in terms of long term health.

    They don't tell you that in the magazine though:D.

    And obviously the supplements industry couldn't give two fucks for your long term health.
     
  7. cajunman

    cajunman Well-Known Member

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    Oh, sweet Mary!! I hope to hell your user name is not an allusion to the Norse head MFer, God of War, and ass-kicker of frost giants! With a name like Odin, from the land of the caber toss, I would expect that you would be devouring meat pies in between bouts of stone-shouldering, not navel-gazing about health risks and muscly pursuits and other dross. If you want to be strong, train to get strong. if you don't, don't. If you gotta think about it, you don't want it.

    Regarding COMPOUNDS, COMPOUNDS, COMPOUNDS: too many kiddies think that weight training is like a Play-Doh funshop. "I want bigger arms, so I'll do curls" like sewing together little Frankenstein physiques. Workouts are not some Chinese a la carte menu! You want to be big, you better get strong - and if you think you can curl big weight without being able to squat, deadlift, or row big weight, you are flat-out delusional.

    Lifting 200 pounds: if this is your goal, and you expect to look better than average, you have got to be kidding me. 200 is average. A fun transition workout in between cycles is to go to the gym, load a barbell to 225, and use it for your entire workout - the stronger you are, the more exercise selection you have. Also, if you want to be able to lift any 200 pound object, you better be able to lift more like 300-400 pounds on a barbell. Go load a duffel bag to 200 and wrestle with it a while if you don't know what I'm talking about.
     
  8. MannishBoy

    MannishBoy Senior Member

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    I don't think MH promotes overly muscular people. Their models are more lean and athletic looking than bodybuilder muscular.

    Also the magazine has a lot of health based articles. Kinda the readers digest version of things, but hits some good highlights at times.

    And I don't think meat and dairy are necessarily going to shorten your life. There are a lot of nutrients found in meats that can't be easily found in plant sources. Just like there are unhealthy meat eaters, there are unhealthy vegans.
     
  9. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    Yeah, I agree they're not bodybuilder muscularity, but I would say that the bigger models do have pretty good muscularity that presumably took a few years of good training and diet to achieve - a diet presumbaly high in protein, meat and dairy.

    Anyway I'm sure you're right about what you say about meat and dairy not necessarily shortening life - but judging by some of the medical studies that come out there does appear to be some form of risk factor with a diet high in protein/meat/dairy
     
  10. MannishBoy

    MannishBoy Senior Member

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    There is also some studies showing increasing saturated fats (gasp!) and other fats while reducing processed carbs lowers some heart risk factors.

    So, what to believe?
     
  11. Monkey Boy

    Monkey Boy Active Member

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    hey, thanks for all the replies (even though some may be abit off topic :lol:) i have read them all and it has made me think that maybe my goal should not be to rush to 16'' arms but exercise 'normally' and just see what happens, and hopfully reach my goal when im ready.. Even my arms as they stand at the moment are alot bigger then most my friends and people i know.. and im starting to wonder if 16'' arms on me would even look right haha..

    Also the health factor is another reason i dont want to rush my goal. I'd rather build up my strength and size gradually and healthly then get massive fast and risk my health..

    Thx again for all your comments i found them very useful! :tu:
     
  12. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Well that got me to thinking. I haven't measured my arms in quite a while so I got out the tape. I'm still a bit pumped from today's uppers. Usually my arms are just about 15". Right now they are 15.75" on both sides. Which is not far from 16".

    And I have to say it's not that impressive checking it in the mirror. Even flexed. It pretty much still looks like me.
     
  13. andysutils

    andysutils Active Member

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    this is all good to know, but its completely irrelovent to me.
    if getting big muscle mass and getting stronger means you live less than the cardio slim jim, then its not gonna stop me.

    Im 28 yrs old, im not living for if im going to be alive in another 60 years time, im living each day now, if getting bigger and stronger and not really eating as healthy as the average super cardio man does gets me what i want now, i aint gonna be worrying about having a heart attack or dropping dead when im 70.

    At the end of the day, if im going to start depriving myself of doing what i want to do in life now to make sure im still alive when im 60, i aint ever gonna have one.

    just my personal opinion:tu:
     
  14. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    To be honest I would say it is relevant to anyone on a high protein, high meat/dairy etc. diet. If there are some health risks, particularly camcer risks from this kind of diet then it is better that you are aware of this. It is then up to the individual to look into it if they want and either pay heed to it or ignore it.

    I have looked into it (but just a little mind you) and at moment just want to carry on with a muscle building type diet and beef up a bit rather than turn myself back into the greyhound figure I was a couple of years ago.

    I do however believe in looking after one's long term health too (that said I do booze and social smoke at weekends, so figure that one out:eek:) obviously diet plays a huge part in health so I think I will review the high protein/meat/dairy approach in the years to come as more studies come out etc. Sticking with it the now though as I really enjoy going to the gym and there's nothing worse than going to the gym and getting zilcho results/progress cos your diet isn't complementing your training, been there and done that for the first eighteen months I went to the gym when I was totally oblivious to proper diet to support weight training.

    Suppose I shouldn't complain too much about that wasted time as there's probably guys who've spent 10 years and more in gyms and made little progress due to not having proper info about diet. The internet certainly makes it much easier to get access to the relevant info, I'd postulate that your average gym goer might do better now due to that easy access to info than those of 10 or 20 years ago when internet forums like this weren't around.
     
  15. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    It's actually the other way around.
     
  16. thegaminboy

    thegaminboy Active Member

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    what? i thought leaner ppl live longer. and there might be health risk with a diet high in meat/dairy products. but how is someone skinny (like me) supposed to get bigger without eating meat?
     
  17. chicanerous

    chicanerous Elite Member
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    It's not lean people or "cardio slim jims" that supposedly live longer. It's those on a specific severely restricted diet with a very low number of overall calories with nutritionally dense unprocessed choices.
     
  18. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Not humans. Thats worms and mice. If you want to live long as a human, you want to add a little fat and a lot of muscle as you get older. Didn't I just explain this in this thread?
     
  19. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    But it doesn't actually work in humans because of the orthopedic risk, also Alzheimers, infectious disease risk, risk of surgical and chemo complications, etc.
     
  20. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Well, it could raise the cap on your lifespan -- The effects have been pretty robust across a number of species, including primates -- But, as you mention, the alternative effects don't really make it an attractive option. I mean, who cares if I can theoretically live to 120 if I break my hip and die of complications at age 70? Or, I die at 65 because I don't have the physiological reserves to fight off a respiratory infection?

    It isn't a matter of being "lean", it is a matter of caloric restriction. A lean ectomorph who eats 3000 calories per day wouldn't obtain any of the advantages associated with caloric restriction.
     

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