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How do you know if you are doing to much weight training..

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Monkey Boy, Jan 21, 2008.

  1. Monkey Boy

    Monkey Boy Active Member

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    Yes i think my routine is working very well.. I have noticed a big increase in my strength and indurance in just the last week and abit.. Before my uni broke up for xmas i was curling and shoulder pressing 10-12.5kgs max and now my range is more like 15-17.5kg.. Also i didnt do hardly any weights over the holidays so all the increase in strength must be mainly from when i came bk to uni.. about 10 days ago..
     
  2. timwalsh300

    timwalsh300 Well-Known Member

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    So I recommend the following... Take the advice of the others who have posted here and start emphasizing the big, compound lifts like squats and deadlifts. But don't worry about being in the gym too often for right now if you enjoy it and it's working. You'll have to start with lighter weights and develop proper form anyway, so I think the high frequency will only help. After all, that's how even the most elite, competitive Olympic lifters do it.

    When the weights start getting heavier and you start feeling more drained of energy or the progress starts to slow down, then cut it back to doing each movement only 1 to 3 times per week.

    Enjoy the raw beginner gains while they last.

    Tim
     
  3. MannishBoy

    MannishBoy Senior Member

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    It's probably also much harder to overtrain with the small movements he's doing. I doubt you are going to fry the CNS with curls :D
     
  4. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Ouch. Well the leg press counts as a lame substitute for leg work. The other stuff is not really leg work at all.
     
  5. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Very very slowly.

    Hotshot firecrews are almost the ultimate in constantly working. They usually stay in incredible cardiovascular shape but they don't gain muscle mass during the fire season.

    Rest is required; this is completely well understood and not controversial.
     
  6. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Ain't gonna happen unless you learn how to work out.
     
  7. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Yeah he's progressing. He's a teenager awash in testosterone. Which he is wasting by not learning to lift safely and then hammering his legs with the real work.
     
  8. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Yeah I guess I should have expected the curls part. Oh well. I suppose there is no point it telling you to stop doing that. But that is not really your best move now. The rowing machine is helping your arms more than those curls.

    Your increase in strength is as likely due to your rest and youth as it is to your dubious training program.

    I recommend that you get a program based on the big compounds - squats, deadlifts, barbell rows, bench press, pull-ups, pull-downs, lunges, pushups, etc.
     
  9. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    I think you've indirectly hit on what we should been asking in the first place. What is his routine? So far, we know it involves a few random machines, overhead press and curls.

    Monkey Boy -- You've gotten some feedback so far, but I don't think the feedback has been that useful. The consensus seems to be that you may or may not be overtraining. You'd get much better feedback if you'd post your routine and let everybody know exactly what you do in the gym for 2 hours. My sense is that your routine is somewhat haphazard and random, and not really structured all that well. Getting everyone's feedback on your routine will probably be alot more helpful than debating whether or not 2 hours per day, 7 days per week of training is productive.

    Sounds like you are really motivated, and that is half the battle -- Probably a few changes to your program and you'll be well on your way to making some great gains! :tucool:
     
  10. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Good point. It's almost like not working out at all if you don't have to worry about hitting your CNS.
     
  11. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    We know a whole lot more. He said for legs he did some leg press, and rowing machine (which means rowing ergometer like Concept 2). He used to do running and cycling. You know quite well that no sensible program for a teenager should be like his for legs, unless he has to work around serious medical disability like paraplegia.
     
  12. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Zen

    How come I see these people who do squat after squat and their legs show little definition or shape. Same for people doing all these compound moves and having no arm shape or size.

    I think someone said they wanted a 16" arm, I assume a defined one. Do you get one on a rowing machine?

    Every young guy that come on here wants to change his body into a model one that he has seen in life or pictures. Power lifters do a lot of squatting and deadlifting, I wonder how many want to look like one?

    I assume most want a waist under 32" that is defined with a 46" chest, 16" arms, 16" calves, 25" thighs. Everything defined. If I was 18, that would sound good to me. I would even do compound exercises, But I wouldn't leave out the isolated exercises like a BB curl or A tricep pushdown. Most of the best bodies in the world were built with a good share of isolated exercises.

    An 18 year old shouldn't have to put in more than 3 hours a week in a gym. He should be living a full and balanced life and his workout should be balanced. His workouts should be hard and short.:bb:
     
  13. goonie

    goonie Active Member

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    I wouldn't overlook how the rest factor during the holidays may have contributed to your recent strength gains. The condition our bodies are in going into a training segment play a huge role in the results of that segment. You can't give complete credit to what you're doing now without looking into what proceeded it.

    Your break very well could have allowed you to come back to the gym with immediate potential to recognize increase strength as a result of a delayed rebound effect if you'd been overworking your body before the break. Basically the time off could have been what your body needed to play a little catch up.

    Your workout mentality seems more conditioning and work capacity oriented, yet you only mention size goals which is kind of confusing.
     
  14. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Even those of us who refuse to get lean eventually get rippled legs and upper bodies. It might take a while though. Any bodybuilder will tell you that if you want to look muscular it helps to be lean. Conversely, if you don't want to be lean then it takes a lot more muscle to look it. I was frankly surprised to see another head of my quadriceps peeking out from under my shorts last Wednesday, I'm still at about 19-20% bf.

    As far as getting 16" arms? The big compounds will get you there. By the time you can bent over row a 315# barbell for reps you will have them. I guarantee it. Show me someone who rows that with small arms.

    The rowing machine the original poster is using is not actually a bad exercise - I have put in the million odd kilometers on ergs myself. And it will prevent him from having tiny, scrawny arms. But in his situation - a late teenager who has not finished his principal growth and who has never seriously lifted? I would get to the big compounds for at least six months before wasting time on anything else. He doesn't have to give up the rowing machine, but it's not helping him toward his goal that much.
     
  15. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    I would actually assume not so many people want a waist under 32". If you want to be particuarly strong then 36" is more like it.

    [​IMG]

    If you get really lean, you run a bunch of health risks (Alzheimer's, tuberculosis, infections, various orthopedic issues). I know that young guys think that lean guys with big arms get the ladies. That's only slightly true, but I was young once - you want any edge you can get. But once you get past the not understanding how to interact with the opposite sex stage, I don't think people should stay very lean unless they compete as body builders. As you age, muscle mass becomes much more important to health than leanness. So people should plan to be on a trajectory through life which starts out lean and adds muscle through their whole life. Learning the compound lifts will not really get in the way of leaning out when you are young (barbell complexes are completely effective for burning fat) and will stand a man in good stead for muscle building for his whole life.
     
  16. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    Do lean people not to tend to live longer ? That is people who tend towards low calorie diets and cardiovascular work which strengthens the heart more are projected to live longer than weight training types on high calorie diets ? I'm sure I've read this before.


    Low calorie diets have been linked to longevity. I'm guessing that perhaps the digestion system is a bit like a car engine - the more you're eating, the more work you're putting it through, a bit like doing high mileage verus low mileage, the higher the mileage, the quicker the engine will burn out.

    Further to that, meat and dairy products have been linked to cancer for years. I remember reading that the countries with the highest dairy consumption have the highest cancer rates. Clearly most weightlifting diets are awash with meat and dairy products. Then there's protein. Many medics say there's already too much protein in Western diets as it is, that's before you add on the gallons of protein shakes and kilos of meat shovelled down by most folk lifting weights to build muscle.

    Obviously if you're on such a diet to try and build muscle the answer is to eat lots of roughage and green veg to get the health effects of same. Am on a high protein diet myself just now as trying to improve physique and add muscle etc and equally am eating cleaner than before I lifted weights and eating more fruit and veg too and less junk, so there are dietary benefits too for weightlifters - as long as you learn to eat clean.

    But if it was purely longevity I was after, I think I would eat a low protein, low calorie diet, stay lean (although as you mention getting too lean can be unhealthy too, so say maybe 12 percent would be a nice healthy weight) and do lots of cardio i.e. the marathon runner type look versus the bodybuilder type look. I guess another thing about the bodybuilding approach that can't be too healthy is the whole bulk and cut thing, although I dare say this depends on the extremeness of the approach i.e. a slow bulk and slow cut is presumably healthier than rapid bulks and rapid cuts.
     
  17. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    I think that's a good post. I think the bottom line is attractiveness and aesthetics wise that guys look better lean - I think most guys will only start to look their best at 15 percent body fat or thereabouts and below, at the same time one doesn't want to look too skinny or gaunt in the face either, so there's a balance to be struck. If you have a lot of muscle you won't look skinny no matter how lean you get but even with tons of muscles a gaunt looking face might still be an issue if you get very lean, that's probably something that varies from person to person.


    The problem is how the hell do you get the lean AND muscular/strong look - cos building muscle and losing fat are essentially in opposition to one another. The answer generally lies in a series of bulk and cuts, but the difficulty is for most natural genetically average lifters this takes years, tons of patience plus a spot on diet and very good training routine, it's not too surprising then that many turn to steroids due to the amount of time and effort involved for a genetically average guy to build a physique that's both lean and muscular.


    Obviously genetics are a big factor in one's success, preponderance of fast twitch versus slow twitch muscle fibres and so on (eg if you look at pictures of the physique Steeve Reeves built before steroids were around, presumably he was spectacularly genetically gifted for muscle building) and the age at which you start - starting in teens and keeping it going will be a big advantage due to natural hormones produced at that age.


    I also agree with the point you make about curls - it's easy and fashionable to shout COMPOUNDS, COMPOUNDS, COMPOUNDS, and knock curls, but as far as I'm aware all the successful bodybuilders, both pre and post steroid eras did a lot of curls, so curls are clearly not useless. Indeed I'm sure all the guys I see in my gym with big arms do a lot of curls too. Not saying curls are necessary, particularly for a beginner, as chins in particular will build the biceps quite well, but at the same time they're clearly not useless either.
     
  18. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    And your post points out, pick your parents well they make you what you are. Genes rule.

    I think the measurements, I used as examples are good goals for the young. A BF% of 12-18% is what I think The non-competing bodybuilder should shoot for. I saw something a few years back about the average college QB came in at 18%.

    Zen pushes Strength and Endurance and it has a place. I don't think the average person will ever face the necessity to lift over 200 lbs more than a few times in his life outside the gym. If you aren't lifting large rocks up to the top of a wall in competition, where is all this strength needed. There is nothing anywhere that proves runners or manual labor workers live longer; lean people do though. And attractive people do have an edge in life in general, so I suggest lift for the looks. Sufficient strength and endurance will follow for life's needs.

    I do disagree on time required for results. It doesn't take a number of years to achieve a good body. On average, I would guess at 2 years to obtain your best. It takes many to maintain that best within reasonable bounds. I think people should spend less than 5% of their exercising life in a cutting or bulking program, with 95% maintaining.

    People need a program that they will stick with for life. One that has structure that can be modified but not abandoned. But this spinning of programs - always looking for something difference can delay results big time. :cool:
     
  19. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't think the differences between a "model" and a powerlifter are due to selecting isolation over compound movements. I think the difference there is diet. Powerlifters eat an insane amount of food/calories because doing so helps them move big weight -- Even if it means that they turn into blocky fat guys.

    I don't think Zen is saying that iso's are useless -- but rather, it seems that Monkey Boy (from what we know) is structuring his workout around isolation movements....and, while isolation movements can help, they definitely should not be the core of your program. I think most of us would agree that compounds should form the core of your program, and, depending on your goals, supplemented with isolation work.

    Well, I think you start entering a slippery slope when you begin using "functionality" as a basis for arguing aesthetics over strength. After all, what functionality does aesthetics have? Strength, by definition, is functional. You may never need to lift a 300 pound rock, but the fact that you can means that you've got plenty of bone, tendon, and muscle strength to allow you to live and perform at high levels well into old age.

    Yeah, I think you may be referring to the CRON movement (Caloric-Restriction Optimal Nutrition)....which is the idea that one should maximize the nutrient content per calorie consumed, and in the process, consume as few calories as possible. The idea is that fewer calories consumed = fewer free radicals = less oxidative stress on the body. There is actually quite a bit of evidence supporting this viewpoint in animals. Some organisms can nearly double their lifespan with this approach. Even in primates, there has been found less oxidative muscular damage in calorically restricted monkeys versus those allowed to feed at free feeding levels.

    The only problem is that this type of eating will leave you really thin (medically underweight actually), with not much in the way of muscle mass. As Zen points out, that can leave you susceptible to a whole new set of potential health maladies. So, while CRON may raise the cap on your lifespan, it doesn't necessarily mean that the other physiological consequences of that won't get you first.
     
  20. euan

    euan Active Member

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    Spot on. I'd rather live healthily and happy, than live starved and miserable just for another 5 years, or however much longer they reckon you'd live for.
     

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