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How can it work?

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by doordude42, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. 1FastGTX

    1FastGTX Elite Member
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    Now we're just going around in circles. The point is, by his definition, it would not be possible to lift weights for 2 hours at that level of intensity, and if you did go for 2 hours, then the session was not as intense as his. BY HIS DEFINITION of "intensity," you cannot go that long.

    Another story... I thought my sessions were intense, until one day I had a chance to work out with some equipment invented by someone who used to work with Jones on the early Nautalis machines. We went through a chest routine that consisted of 2 sets of flat bench press and 1 set of incline bench press. That's it. I was planning on doing some dumbbell decline to complete the workout, but after the incline press I was getting really sick feeling and picking up that dumbbell was not possible. Get it? I could not do anymore, unless perhaps had I sat there for a while and waited. That was about 10 minutes of time spent on chest; our rest periods were about 3-4 minutes between sets. Now I did wait a little bit and proceeded to do some back work. Similar session: some deadlifts (regular, didn't use his machines), a set of rows, and a set of pulldowns. That was it. That was all I was able to do. I tried to do more, grabbed the bar and pulled, but it wouldn't move. Now he does use full-body HIT training for his clients (who consist mostly of professional athletes, the only people who can afford to go there!); they go 2 days per week and do a full-body routine each day. I believe he also does a upper/lower routine, but I have not been by there in a while.
     
  2. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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  3. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Well, certainly not, but that is simply because you are fatigued after 1.5 hours of lifting. Now, I will concede you will be fatigued, but I just don't buy this idea that you are so wiped out that you can't even pick up a weight, or manage to do another set. Perhaps we are discussing different things here -- The way some of you describe "intensity", it sounds as if you are tracking the elusive Loch Ness monster....sure, there are many dark tales of its existence, a few grainy films, a few old men in scant isolated villages who claim to have seen it, but nobody, despite their efforts has ever tasted this mythical "intensity". The reason is because it doesn't exist.

    Surely, I believe that you might not be able to do another set at the same weight due to fatigue, but I certainly don't buy this idea that after an intense set, the trainee is just so wiped that an additional set at any weight is just impossible ... especially if you believe in overload training. I will agree though, that the second hour of a workout will generally be less intense than the first, but not markedly so...especially if you have adapted to it (the body can adapt to almost anything).

    For the record though, I do not recommend long, intense workouts -- only that I don't dismiss them as being impossible. Impossible for some perhaps, but not impossible for us all.
     
  4. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I just happen to find it an interesting topic, thats all :) -- Not trying to be negative. I do agree though, that there is a strong mental component to lifting...especially when doing heavy compound lifts. I often have to rest upwards of 5 minutes for some heavy lifts ... Not necessarily because my muscles haven't recovered, but rather, because I need to mentally work myself into a proper state before I attempt the next set.

    I suspect we agree on most issues as well -- as I believe in overload training, low volume, and primarily compound work. I think for the most part, you dole out some very sound advice in your posts :)
     
  5. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    .2x post, sorry
     
    #105 doordude42, Jul 18, 2005
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2005
  6. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    [

    Surely, I believe that you might not be able to do another set at the same weight due to fatigue, but I certainly don't buy this idea that after an intense set, the trainee is just so wiped that an additional set at any weight is just impossible ... especially if you believe in overload training. I will agree though, that the second hour of a workout will generally be less intense than the first, but not markedly so...especially if you have adapted to it (the body can adapt to almost anything).

    JoeSchmo,

    Just for the record, again I agree for the most part. However for me I gotta think the second hour would not be very productive. I'm one of those 1 hour dudes.
     
  7. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    We all have muscle memory to a degree, sometimes the lack of it. Hudlow for instance started bodybuilding in high school, played football for awhile at Georgia tech and was in the marines for 3 years. So some muscle memory was present, his before pictures looked like he was out of shape. When he lose the 50 lbs and 9" off waist, he looked good and most would have stayed at that weight. I think he took the bulk a few steps too far. It is all spelled out in the New HIT book.

    I do agree muscle memory and genes play a role. I don't think anything is faked or misrepresented, nor is drugs involved. Creatine was used during bulking as only supplement.

    Anyone living near Jackson, TN might try to contact Darden and volunteer for next study, if there is one.
     
  8. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    yeah, I am too. I never go past one-hour. I think I was just questioning this idea of this god-like intensity that seems more like something entertaining to read about than anything real. I would agree though, that hour 2 of a workout wouldn't be terribly productive....not only for intensity reasons, but also due to elevated cortisol, and excessive catabolism.....that second hour is well-past the point of diminishing returns.
     
  9. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    Diminishing returns definitely come into play at some point. My personal belief is that every set should be taken to near failure. Rep range makes a difference, but it is only possible to do this with an appropriate loading scheme for so many sets. Also, once volume gets past a certain point, there are diminishing returns and the drawbacks begin to outweigh the benefits. These things naturally limit the lengths of workouts.
     
  10. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    One more time, I agree!!!!!
     
  11. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    hehe. Great minds think alike. :lol:
     
  12. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

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    Now thats what im talking about!
    And thats the same reason i think a split works better than fullbody for building mass. :tu:
     
  13. 1FastGTX

    1FastGTX Elite Member
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    I do agree with you Glenn, I firmly and strongly believe in splits not only for mass but as well as those looking for fat loss over muscle gain. Then again I don't really change my weight-lifting depending on whether or not I'm bulking, cutting, or maintaining. The only reason it changes for me is because of plateaus or prioritizing a particular muscle.

    At Strength Studio (the place I was discussing), the owner, Dr. Mike Macmillan, does push HIT style workouts. His routines are 2x per week full body routines I have been told (I THINK he offers some type of upper/lower split but I'm pretty sure his preferred method is full-body). As stated he worked with Jones during the early years on some Nautalis equipment. I believe he and Jones disagreed on the mechanics of the machines although they agreed on all general principles of muscle growth. He felt a real mechanical, electronic machine would work best (heavier negative than positive, so make a long story short; you'll see Magnus using similar machines in Sweeden I believe, though they're much more clunky I have heard). Jones disagreed and believed in I think more of a pulley system of sorts. Dr. M. once told me a story of Jones and him working on a machine and the pulley went so high it would not fit inside the gym where they were testing it. It would have had to have shot through the roof to actually work.

    Of course a friend of mine was a trainer at this gym, so we were allowed free access 24/7, and we made our own splits and styles of lifting with these machines. The bench press alone was worth the drive for me. In literally 3 workouts (4 weeks) my max bench had shot up 50+ pounds (note that my bench press is nothing to brag about in the first place, so even at my so called "advanced level" I would assume much of this jump to be "newbie gains" of sorts).

    You would have liked it there. If you're ever in the Orlando area let me know and I'll see if I can get you a couple free sessions in there. I can't promise anything (my friend no longer works there) but I'll try. :)
     
  14. doordude42

    doordude42 Senior Member

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    RTE,
    I failed to mention this before however I feel compelled to do so now. You looked pretty damn good in your picture. It ain't easy for us old guys!!!!!!!! Keep it up.
     
  15. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I picked up type II diabetes about 10 years back. The dumping of ineffective insulin doesn't help. I into a cut that I hope will be my last. Age does make a difference.
     

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