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High Intensity Training on the Net

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by RTE, Dec 23, 2004.

  1. ebatch20

    ebatch20 Well-Known Member

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    Wow.. great info rtestes and everyone..

    When John gets back, this should be a sticky! :tu:
     
  2. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Back hurting from Squat would indicate improper form to me. You could substitute leg extensions and leg curls until you study and develop proper form in squats and deadlift. You might look here for proper form: http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C03D688F10C4DE1F

    I am from the old school, I prefer and recommend barbells in lieu of dumbbells for those exercises. Why do you feel the need for dumbbells?
     
  3. optheta

    optheta Active Member

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    WoW rtestes that Link is Awsome. I just watch video one and wow never thought of any of what i could be doing wrong. Practicing near a wall seems like a good idea. Also is there not supposed to be any lower back pain at all or am i probably experiencing to much from improper form. Also do you have any video links for Deadlift?

    Only reason i want to do Calf raises with DB is because I have yet to find "the sweet spot" for the barbell on my back.

    BTW would this be considered a good reference on Deadlift Form? http://youtube.com/watch?v=8-O_MT72rck
    Also in the deadlift how low is your hips and Glute supposed to go when you go down from a standing position i first thought you were supposed to go realy low but now it seems like ur glute and behind need to be low it seems you make it so ur hamstrings are tight. is this wrong?
     
    #63 optheta, Jan 14, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
  4. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    There shouldn't be "pain" with any exercise, while performing the exercise. We can have DOMS or Delayed Onset Muscular Soreness at some point in exercise. but if I ever have pain during an exercise, I stop and examine form.

    I think the stiff legged or Romanian deadlift(there is a difference) are the one to be performed for exercise, we aren't doing power lifting. A person who has form down well is fellow JSF member chicanerous so this is how I expected the romanian is to be performed.

    Now on the stiff legged version. First It is always performed with a slight bend in knees, this protects the vertebrae in lower back. use a shoulder wide grip, don't use an alternate one.

    Stand over bar, bend hips and knees, grasp bar, extend hip and knees lift smoothly and slowly to standing position. Now keep slight bend lower bar down thights and shin, touch floor lightly but don't stop . repeat slowly and smoothly for reps. Don't use more weight than you can handled until you get form down.

    Again you might use leg extension and curl, you can get good results when you handle more than 100-150 lbs in each. I am just wanting to build the quads and hamstrings, there are other exercises to build back.
    :cool:
     
  5. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    #65 RTE, Feb 17, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2008
  6. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    #66 RTE, May 15, 2008
    Last edited: May 15, 2008
  7. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    While Mike Mentzer was very popular, I was never impressed with him as a trainer, author, or bodybuilder. These videos were done in 1982, I believe. He had been retired for 2 years and was starting out as a trainer. He and his brother started to work for Arthur Jones in February of 1983 until September of the same year. Those times were covered in Darden's The New Hit book. After returning to California, they were involved in training and writing until their deaths in 2001.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xExJhXRLO4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqI6z6g3dXM&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEI4dS_xjDk&feature=related
     
  8. gareth

    gareth Active Member

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    Most of the moves in these videos are done at around 2020 - i thought hey had to be 4040
     
  9. gareth

    gareth Active Member

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    What strikes me about Dr D`s routine there are very few exercises, the emphasis seems to be more on the diet. In the article `Florida dreaming..` I think the trainees were only doing 6 exercises 3 times a week, and the mass building building program in the new hit book doesnt have many exercises too.

    There are the beginner and intermediate routines but as they progress the sessions are reduced to two a week.

    As I enjoy going to the gym I would like to do the 12 exercises from the beginner/intermediate routines (which do not differ very much) followed by 15-20 mins cardio and also do around 45 mins cardio on non-lifting days. I wonder if the cardio would erase the benfits of the lifting - Dr D doesn`t seem to have much of a liking for cardio.
     
  10. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    I consider the mentzer's videos to be poor examples of HIT. As I stated Mentzer never has impressed me. I didn't think he reached a 2/2 cadence.

    Darden and the majority of HIT followers don't think cardio is effective. He and they also think HIT is efficient and effective training and as you advance you would require less training time. I agree.

    Your concern about cutting the time in a gym down is one I don't understand. If you can get the same or better results by using HIT 90 or less minutes a week. Why shouldn't you? Don't prejudge it, try it as prescribed. You should find yourself working harder.

    Now note some reasons. Look at most videos, the average rep time is 1/1, HIT is asking for 6-8 seconds a rep. that is 3-4 times as long. Darden choose 10/5 for the person, Hudlow. he choose in the New HIT study. The rest period in HIT is reduced to 60sec or less. The rep range method tries to keep you at an average of 80% of your 1repmax. These things as well as others are to keep you at a high intensity, always progressing. If you tried to add more than the program provides, you would quickly get into overtraining. You would be less effective.

    Continue to read Darden's explanations. He backs up his advice, very well. HIT has more rules to follow, start winging it and making up your own rules you can mess things up, causing problems.:nono:
     
  11. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Kind of interesting because of the two prominent bodybuilders here at JSF, one of them insists on cardio (Swolecat) and the other one avoids it at all costs (mastover).

    And then you get a guy like John Stone who has benefited from the advice of both Swolecat and mastover.

    There's more than one way to skin the bodybuilding cat.

    In reality, some of it is a problem of terminology. If you lift with short rest, you are actually doing "cardio" (just check the heart rate). Some people avoid calling it cardio, though. Any exercise that loads the cardiovascular system hard should really be called cardio though. I have enclosed the heart rate graph from my speed deadlifts a couple days ago:

    note that these sets have a lot more than 30 seconds rest - more like 60-75 seconds. But you can see that even this longer rest keeps the heart rate elevated. So although this is just conventional barbell deadlifts, I was doing it for "cardio", and we see that it was effective as "cardio".

    So when we talk about cardio being effective or not, it's important to remember what various people mean by cardio, as opposed to what they ought to mean.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    I use the term it provides a "cardio effect". I just don't like to think of it like non-muscle producing exercise like most cardio. Of course there are many ways of skinning a cat. I just think HIT offers the most effective and efficient way for the vast majority. While it produces strength, I don't think it is best for those who want to compete in strength demonstrations or bodybuilding competitions at the national level.
     
    #72 RTE, May 23, 2008
    Last edited: May 23, 2008
  13. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    More of Mike Mentzer, again I must say I never cared for him but he did have an impact on some in the 80s and 90s after working with Arthur Jones for a short while.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppf3hAC4tx4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLZiErtne7c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sdOrVXqIM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv1eUqmZB0I

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-d5wwe91M

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xEvrM-8ni4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH24f6k5aT0

    Remember in my opinion, this guy was someone that used the knowledge he learned from Jones and others to stay in the spotlight for a bit longer. It is worth a listen.
     
  14. HevyMetal

    HevyMetal Well-Known Member

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    There's cardio and then there's cardio...

    It is generally agreed by the medical/scientific community that lifting weights will give you a "bigger' heart.

    Whereas some forms of cardio like cycling will not give you a bigger heart but will give you a more efficient one in terms of ability to pump volume of blood.

    Now if I cycle all the time but don't lift weights I will have a very efficient heart.

    If I Powerlift all the time on a regular basis....I will have a stronger heart but it will be bigger and it will not be as efficient as the cyclists.

    Now posters have said that you can do cardio with big weights .....just keep the rest periods shorter.

    ( And I realize this differs from a Circuit routine where you are using not-so-heavy weights but you're doing it with little rest between exes and sets).

    Bottom line.....are you guys saying that doing cardio by using heavy weights and short rest periods produces the same type of efficiency/volume for the heart compared to other types of non-weight-bearing cardio like running/cycling/eliptical/swimmimg etc.etc.?

    A bigger heart is not a more efficient heart.
     
  15. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Gosh I don't have the slightest idea. I never knew you could build bigger heart muscles. I have always heard Heart muscle doesn't regenerate when it's damaged. Bigger hearts from weights sounds like an urbane legend. Cardio exercise is simply increasing heart rates but you will have to explain getting bigger hearts and what makes one form of cardio exercise more efficient.

    I am still trying to find out if it increases lifespans. Do bike riders live longer than a weight lifter? what if you quit riding bikes at age 60 but lifted till 90? I use to have a citation from Harvard medical school that said there was no long term studies that showed exercise increased lifespan.

    In my life, I have rode bikes, lettered in track, had a pool for years, hell, hate to admit it, but I have a treadmill, my wife uses and I have on occasion. But I don't do any of that for "real" exercise.

    I have never done cardio on purpose. When I started lifting I always held my rest periods to less than 60 seconds to keep the "pump" not my heart large. Who knows my heart might go anytime if I don't get killed by a drunk or drugged driver like over 30,000 Americans a year. :D
     
  16. bradh

    bradh Well-Known Member

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    Cool RTE, i always thought you thought :) that HIT was the best way to train, period. I also believe HIT would work for alot of average folks but i believe many other methods would work just has well.

    The bottom line is weight training.
     
  17. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Endurance training has been associated with an enlargement of the wall of one of the ventricles (the left one if memory serves). Oddly enough some say this increase in thickness of the muscle weakens the heart. I doubt this, and the evidence I have seen seems to indicate that endurance training increases cardiovascular performance (well duh).

    It is actually possible to regenerate heart muscle, and also now the coronary arteries.

     
  18. HevyMetal

    HevyMetal Well-Known Member

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    Well...I'd have to go back through the archives and sites etc.

    But I knew about enlarged hearts for heavy lifters,strongmen and powerlifters decades ago.

    I was merely pondering the difference in application for the term "cardio" as applied to this.

    Efficiency versus strength...

    Studies have shown that pro cyclists can move the most blood through the heart volume-wise.

    How does this compare to a strongman who can deadlift 800lbs.?

    His heart, according to scientific info, is bigger and enlarged..

    I guess I could take from this analysis that his heart is also very strong.

    But he won't be doing the same volume as the pro cyclist.

    The strongman heart is good for lifts of very short duration basically.

    'Cardio" seems to be more about steady-state prolonged heartbeat of a continuous nature.

    "cardio" also encompasses lungs as well.

    Where's the cutoff point between lifting weights and making your heart beat and duration 'cardio" of other forms?
     
  19. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    I'm not sure if that is true. Elite rowers typically have much higher absolute VO2maxes than even elite cyclists, because the rowers have no penalty in their sport for being heavy or really tall. So for example Lance Armstrong had an absolute VO2max of about 6.4 liters. But Matthew Pinsent had an absolute VO2max of over 8 liters - more than 25% higher than Armstrong.

    Now since people's oxygen saturation of blood tends to be very tightly controlled until they get close to physiological disaster, this means that for Pinsent to support the 25% higher oxygen consumption, he had to move a corresponding more than 25% as much blood volume in the same amount of time.

    So, yeah, elite cyclists can shovel a boatload of blood through their bodies, but it's not really close to the human limit. I've heard that Pinsent had the highest absolute VO2max ever measured in Britain, and this is despite Britain having some gold medalists in cycling (Chris Hoy, for one). This is why I think the rowers are the top.

    Rowers were the first people to really get very serious about lactate threshold training, which might explain part of it. They are also obviously selected for being huge people with giant VO2maxes, so a good deal of it could be just genetics and selection. But if you want to see a scary amount of Calories hit the fan in a short time, check out rowers.
     
  20. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Hypertrophy of the left ventricle occurs more often in weight lifting (than endurance training) because of elevated blood pressures associated with the valsalva maneuver. It also occurs in people with high blood pressure, and over time, can lead to a number of heart problems (ischemic heart disease and congestive heart failure). I've read though, that cardiovascular training helps mediate this effect somewhat by keeping the walls of the chamber elastic and able to move a decent volume of blood (which is reduced when LVH occurs).
     

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