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Full body workout questions - rtestes or anyone else

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by CHAPIN, Feb 21, 2005.

  1. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    Hello all! Long time lurker first time poster here.

    Let me tell you a little bit about myself: I'm 38 yrs/old, 6´2", 225 lbs., I've pretty much always been active and fit, did martial arts (all sorts) for a bunch of years and 4 years ago I started weight training. At first my weight training was strictly for strenght reasons but the vanity bug bit me and I started working out for the looks.

    When I started to weight train and get serious about changing my apearance I got my weight down from 220 (kinda fat) to 189 (leanest I've been in ages) while increasing my muscle mass (according to the mirror). I've put some aditional muscle on my frame in this past couple of years.

    My problem is that during the last "bulk" routine I got fat :d_mad: . I'ts not terrible, or so I would like to think, probably around 18% BF (tanita scale says 22% but I don't trust that thing, I'll post pictures later). During this "bulk" I was doing almost zero cardio, didn't train in the martial arts at all and my "bulk diet" was basically wrong. I'm trying to get rid of the excess fat around the waist, which is the area where I store all my fat.

    I got back in track and right now I'm doing fasted cardio, 5-6 days/week on an elyptical like this:
    10 minutes warm up - 60-65% MHR
    10 minutes high intensity - 90% MHR
    25 minutes low intensity - 70% MHR

    Sugestions and/or coments on the cardio are welcomed.

    After doing a weight lifting routine, which had me using rest paused sets and training to failure I came to realize that my body can't handle the stress under the reduced calorie diet I'm on right now, I was feeling like crap all day long. I'm thinking about doing this full body routine M/W/F, different excercises for each day but working the whole body each time:

    DAY 1
    DB BENCH PRESS
    V-BAR PULLDOWN
    UPRIGHT ROW
    PREACHER CURL
    FRENCH PRESS
    SQUAT

    DAY 2
    INC. HAMMER PRESS
    INC. BARBELL ROW
    PARAMOUNT SHOULDER MACHINE
    INC. DB CURL
    CLOSE GRIP SMYTH MACHINE BENCH
    LEG PRESS

    DAY 3
    CHEST DIPS
    PULLDOWNS
    DB SHOULDER PRESS
    BARBELL CURL
    PUSHDOWN
    DEADLIFT

    Each excercise is done for 1 work set 10 reps to failure.

    But finally I got to the question:

    Do you guys think this is a sensible plan for minimizing the loss of my hard gaine muscle while doing a reduce calorie diet? I know that much of this is diet dependent and I'm still fine tuning the diet plan (sugestions on this matter are also VERY welcomed).

    Wow! this turned out to be a looooooooooooong post.

    P.S. Excuse my grammar and spelling as english is not my main language, not that I don't mispell on my main language either :D
     
  2. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    You do better in english then I do. It will sound like a broken record but here goes:

    Your workout looks all right. It is more abbreviated then I believe in. I think each workout should address quads, hamstrings, and calves. I think we owe the back, shoulders and chest, two exercises each, one a pre-exhaustion isolation exercise and a compound exercise. Biceps, triceps, and abs needs one exercise. I also agree with HIT that we should work big muscles first, legs, back, shoulders, chest, arms, and abs in that order.

    If you counted the above that is 12 exercises or sets. I also see an advantage in using a range of 8-12 reps. I start with a weight I can do for 8 reps and then try each workout to do as many as possible, when I can do more than 12 reps, I add weight, next workout.

    Because your calories are restricted, your body needs rest, I don't think cardio is appropriate while cutting or bulking, it is more appropriate for maintaining. There is nothing magical about the calories burned by cardio, it is taxing on body with no building of muscle.

    On diet, it might turn on carbs, either get plenty or cut them. If you have shown signs of hyperinsulinism then go low with good carbs to say 20%, otherwise put carbs up to 60% level.

    Same old thing from me. Why? It seems so logical. :gl:
     
    #2 RTE, Feb 22, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2005
  3. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    I really appreciate your answer. I respect your theories (as you can tell by me posting your name on the thread title) and I believe your advice is always sensible and well worded.

    I was thinking about doing 2 excercises for chest, back and legs. I tried the workout tonight, did day one (thats where one usually starts I guess :D ). Man was I beat up, I did the workout between 8:00pm and 9:00 pm and I'm still feeling like death is upon me and its been almost 2 1/2 hours since I got home. Either my recovery sucks or I'm over doing the intensity :confused: .

    Here is where I'm going to trust you: I've done different routines but I tend to be an abbreviator, I try to get into high intensity training by doing as hevy weights as I can handle. I if you think I could do better by lowering the weights a bit and doing some aditional excercises for chest, back and legs I'm willing to try that (if that is what you are saying actually, I might be reading this wrong).

    Here is another problem I face with pure HIT: If I do squats as the first excercise in my workout then I'm depleted for the rest of the night. Thats the reason I leave squats/deadlifts for last. Should I just "man up" and do whatever I can after squats/deadlifts or could I still do them last and still be productive?

    Also, do you think I should cut down on the cardio? I really want to make this belly go away NOW! In reality it might not be that bad, my wife even says she kinda thinks its cute. I on the other hand think that its the creature from hell, always torturing me. I don't want to sound to vain, but then again I think that people in this forum are working hard to get the body they want so I should do no less.

    How's this for an 'improved' routine?

    WORKOUT 1
    DB BENCH PRESS
    DUMBELL FLYS
    V PULLDOWN
    CABLE ROW
    UPRIGHT ROW
    PREACHER CURL
    FRENCH PRESS
    STRAIGHT LEG DEADLIFT
    SQUAT

    WORKOUT 2
    INC. HAMMER PRESS
    PULLOVER
    PULLDOWN
    INC. BB ROW
    MACHINE SHOULDER
    INC. DB CURL
    DIPS
    HAMSTRING CURL
    LEG PRESS

    WORKOUT 3
    CHEST DIPS
    INC. DB CHEST PRESS
    PULLDOWNS
    DB SHOULDER PRESS
    BARBELL CURL
    PUSHDOWN
    STANDING HAMSTRING CURL
    DEADLIFT

    Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge :tu:
     
  4. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Changes above in BOLD. Choice is always up to you. You are doing the reps. There is no one way, there are only opinions.
     
  5. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I couldn't reply until now.

    I guess me cutting carbs could explain why I feel so tired after my workouts.

    Also, a couple minutes after I posted my reply it came to me that you were defenitely NOT sugesting lowering the weights, sometimes logic eludes me :D

    Squats and Deadlifts have always killed me, I try to go all out and give it my best. My weights in this movements are not that big, in fact they are my lowest weights (in comparison) but never the less they take the best of me every time. At one time I thought that this was caused by poor cardio fitness, since at the time I started squating seriously I wasn't doing much cardio at all. Now I do cardio and still feel like death afer squats/deadlifts.

    I will give the workout you posted a good try for 12 weeks, big movements first as you outline :db: .

    I didn't listed ab work since I do that on non weight training days but i will incorporate themi into the weight lifting routine.

    I will lower my cardio a bit, 3 times a week, low intensity for 45 minutes.

    Thanks for your help. I'm really looking foward to HIT training!!
     
  6. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Since I don't do cardio except on rare occasions. I do cut my rest periods to 30-60 sec for weights. I walk out of a workout breathing heavy and heart near 80% of max. If you are sticking with cardio and still feel real tired in a workout, you might take more rest time for legs.

    I look forward to progress reports. If any of Ellington Darden's books are available to you, read them. :gl:
     
  7. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    Fist update

    rtestes:

    Last tuesday I ate something that upset my stomach so I was out of the gym for most of the week.

    Yesterday I started the routine you gave me and all I can say is: I hate you in a "thank you very much" way. That was intense!

    I'm not sure if its because I didn't eat well during the week (see stomach thing above) or the fact that I'm in worst shape that I thought but the workout did take a lot out of me, in a good way. I felt tired but good.

    I have soreness in muscles that have not been sore for a long time, I know that soreness is not directly related to growth (blah blah) but somehow it makes me feel better each time I get it.
     
  8. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    That is why they call it High Itensity Training :nod: .

    It is something all should try, they could give it a few weeks to see. One set for exercise to momentary failure. You get out of gym in half the time with a better workout. You don't hold back for those sets after sets you face under other programs. Glad to hear you like it. Remember slow and controlled.
     
  9. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Chris, I've seen you advocate this a few times. I am just curious about your reasoning -- Is it your opinion that going to failure puts one at risk for overtraining?
     
  10. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    Stoping 2, even 1 rep from failure feels odd to me, somehow I feel like I cheated on my workout. I guess this is why I enjoy the High Intensity Training.

    Chirs, I'm not saying that you are not right, I've read studies that support your advice, but as stated it just doesn't feel right for *me*. Also, I wish I could train every other day and not care about the day of the week but unfortunately its very hard for me to weight train on weekends, yesterday was a rare saturday in which I got to the gym on time. Gym closes at 5:00 pm on saturday and usually I'm still at work at that time. Sundays I spend with the family and my wife would kill me if were to mention weight lifting on *her* day. I do cardio on the weekends though.

    The only negative thing that I've found on this type of routine is running into other guys/gals using the equipment that I need to use next. I know that most people will have no problem allowing you do your one set in between their sets but there's always that one guy that won't let you do it :mad: .
     
  11. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Good to see you are not deterred from HIT. HIT is based on avoiding overtraining. The results you will see after you get aclimated will convince you.

    Yeh, I used to run into a woman that would sit on her oversized rump taking her five minute rests, oh how I like to have lost my cool and told her what I thought of her. I think she must have fell down and rolled into a highway, I haven't seen her in years. Most people will let you "work through". I am lucky and usually walk right on thru my workout with no stops. If I ever do run into a problem, I have backup exercises in mind. :bb:
     
  12. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    On the contrary, I think failing is the most important part. In almost all of the various approaches I've taken to training I've gone to failure. This is what really breaks the muscle and sets the stage for growth. And it allows less sheer volume. Lifting to failure will not result in over-training so long as recovery time and nutrition is adequate.
     
  13. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I'd definitely be interested. Or just post the link to it if you think that's easier.
     
  14. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Then HIT is appropriate for +80% of the population who is not looking to get BIG or as Strong as possible. The majority of the younger guys want to look like Brad Pitt or a rock star. The older guys want to lose the pot belly and be able to take their shirt off in public. I think HIT can do that and much more with the shortest time investment.

    You might have noticed that Darden introduces two day a week workout and/or Not to failure workouts every so often after about 10-12 months. The more advanced, the less exercise you need. Most you see on the board asking for advice have less than 12 months of any level of exercise.
     
  15. jsbrook

    jsbrook Well-Known Member

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    I can see the logic behind your reasoning. As a beginner and intermediate trainee, HIT has gotten me fantastic results. But at this point (after weight training seriously on and off-mostly on-for four years), I do feel the need to do something different. I've just never moved away from HIT. As far as recovery, I do feel that legs and back (large muscle groups) do not recover as well in the same time as smaller muscle groups. I'm finishing this cutting phase with HIT and full body workouts three times a week. But in the next bulking phase, I'm considering MAX OT or maybe one of Swole Cat's programs that people have had such great gains with. Thanks for your imput.

    however-in terms of the original poster's workout, don't you think that HIT is quite appropriate or even optimal?

     
    #15 jsbrook, Feb 27, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  16. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    I missed the fun yesterday, oh well....

    I think jsbrook is right, at this time the routine rtestes posted will probably (and hopefully) get me where I want to go. At this time I want to get in better physical shape, lose some fat and hopefully get a bit of muscle at the same time.

    I've been in a bluking state for quite some time and thats what got me a bit (or a lot) fat (I'll post some pictures later), during this continuos bulking I did various types of routines, I tried MAX-OT and loved it, did some DoggCrapp which is in my opinion HIT based. I neglected proper cardio, I practice different martial arts but right now at not near the level of intensity that a good cardio workout needs.

    If I can do my weight training and at the same time get some cardio benefit from it so much better!

    The reasons posted are why I think that at this time HIT ala rtestes is what I need, however I've learned to listen to others and if you guys think that changes like not going to failure might be better I'm willing to listen. Going to failure feels right, is it right? Now that I would like to know :confused: .

    I guess posting some pictures might clear things up, but in the mean time here is a brief description of my current status: I managed to get my arms from 13.5" flexed to 17.5" cold and flexed but they look "flat" and because of that a lot smaller than they are, when you see the pictures you will understand what I mean. Chest is about the same, it didn't grew as much as arms (genetics), shoulders are the same, abdominal area is where things look BAD, back is thicker but it has no definition, legs are probably the only part that looks defined (I don't store fat in that area), almost no calvs though (darned things!).

    I don't think I'll be able to get down to 8% BF, I don't even think I want that (different taste for different folk), I probably would feel better at around 12-14% BF (I look like skeletor when I drop too much weight). Can HIT help me get there? I believe it can.

    I look forward to your comments/sugestions.
     
  17. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Failure as defined in HIT is momentary muscular failure, It ain't a big thing! You are doing a set, you come to a rep somewhere after 8 reps and you can't complete it, it occurs on the positive phase of the movement. You return weight to rack or start position very slowly. Now if you rested a some seconds, you might be able to complete it, but you just go on to next exercise. When you had MMF did your eyes popout, did you have a fit? No, you simply didn't complete the rep. Remember we only do one set, we don't have set after set to do. Tearing us down.

    One of the aspects of HIT is slow controlled movement. It is also a relaxed movement, we aren't yelling, grunting, twisting our face and jaw up. Trying to explode and tear a muscle or mess up a joint. We control the weight it doesn't control us. If you can't contol the weight, you aren't ready to lift it. The weights are based on your ability not the guy in a magazine or video.

    This is the type training that works for a lifetime, it works with a 16 year old or a 60 year old. It is not what Dorian Yates does or even a Menzter. It is for the natural bodybuilder.

    I don't care how many studies are done on a handful of graduate students for 6 weeks by Dr. miltoast somewhere. HIT makes sense and actually the studies back it up.
     
  18. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    My personal definition of reaching failure is: When I can't complete the next rep with perfect form, this means that if I twisted, yelled and used lousy form I could probably get 1-2 more reps. Don't get me wrong, the last rep is HARD.

    I don't believe in asisted reps, if somebody has to help me move the weight up then my spoter is having a workout perhaps even more so than me. Negatives might have their place but I don't like them.

    The only excercise where I probably go a bit past this definition of failure is squats. Perhaps this is why I feel like death whenever I do them.

    I know this failure/not to failure debates have been done a million times and each camp of thought have studies that prove the other one wrong. Personally I believe that working out to failure is benefitial, MAX-OT is based on to-failure principles and it works wonders acording to most people that have tried it. The routine I was doing before deciding that I needed to cut was based on going to failure 3 times in a single set (its more like 1 set followed almost imediatelly by 2 mini-sets but I guess its just semantics).

    I'm working on croping a pic so I can post it, it will be defenitelly posted today, I want to hear/read your coments.
     
  19. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Don't crop, resize, most photos programs will do it.
     
  20. CHAPIN

    CHAPIN Well-Known Member

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    I cropped the pictures, I'm sure you guys are not interested in looking at my wife lying naked on the bed in the backround so I just left the good bits in :D .

    Actually there was no naked wife in the pics, she was behind the camera, but there was a lot of wall that was just boring so I took it out.

    I feel like an attention whore posting the pictures, been debating with myself and finally realized that this is the site where Stone posted pictures of himself on his underware so mine will probably won't be that bad.

    As previously posted, the purpose of this pics is so you guys (if you are so kind) would give me an estimate of BF%, my Tanita scale is known for NOT being acurate and I don't have access to calipers. Also, so you guys got a better idea of where I'm at and why I want/need to drop some fat.

    Here goes nothing:
     

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