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Deadlift heavy routines

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Dalton, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. goonie

    goonie Active Member

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    I would strongly suggest you rethink the whole 3x5 deadlift, 3x/week. I don't know what kind of intensity cycling you were intending there, but obviously 48 hr recovery with 300+ lb pulls is going to suck the life out of you.

    Despite what may in fact be a brief exposure to weight training, I think we're running into an issue with you where the basic novice/beginner approaches are going to need to be adjusted a bit to fit your natural abilities.
     
  2. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    Well, I'd like to at least try it before I bump it. Also, I won't necessarily be adding weight every time with the 3x5.
     
  3. goonie

    goonie Active Member

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    The loading parameters and hearing what you're trying to get out of all of this by doing it 3x/week would be important.

    Can you shoot a video of you pulling 315 and we can go from there?

    The last thing you want is the natural raw ability to pull a weight like that, but to be doing so in a way that puts your body unnecessarily at risk because of poor form. Bad shit happens.

    Also, I think you're sort of being unfair to yourself calling your back "weak". If you can manage a 350+ back squat the way your video showed, there's no way in hell you can say you have a weak back.

    Some of what we're talking in this thread is just a matter of where you can demontrate your strength right now.
     
    #23 goonie, Feb 20, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  4. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    Sure, let me try and get a camera set up. Also, I surely wouldn't be doing 3 sets of 5 with 300lbs for deadlift right off the bat. Actually, I'd want about a week of just getting form down before I do a 5 or 6 week period of heavy lifting.

    Edit: Just took a video. My back is a bit round (although it looks to stay consistent through out the lift), but I don't have an opinion about anything else. Also, some of you may recognize me from an older account I had, but I wasn't very serious about lifting back then, so I'd prefer not discussing that bit. Video is currently uploading. As for my goals, I'd like to get my deadlift as strong as possible as fast as possible while keeping in consideration my goals of also losing weight (2400-2600 calories a day, 200+g of protein).
     
    #24 Dalton, Feb 20, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  5. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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  6. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    Of course I was speaking relative to my other lifts. And as far as hurting myself due to poor form, that's definitely something I'm not looking to do. I'd rather not hurt myself lifting when I'm 16, which could potentially cause me problems for a long time to come.
     
  7. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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  8. gazareth

    gazareth Senior Member

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    Oh lordy, your back position :eek:

    In that video, your lower back is rounding over something chronic. You need to push your hips back further and lower, then get your chest up before you start the lift. Use the mental cue "hips down, chest up" before you even grab the bar. Try to look at a point on the wall at about chest height throughout the lift, drive your heels into the floor and keep that chest proud all the way to lockout.
     
  9. artizzztik

    artizzztik Active Member

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    Um... yeah - that back position isn't looking good at all. I'm not saying that to offend or upset you - you can get really seriously hurt pulling with a back like that, even at 16.

    I think you should cut it down to 135 pounds. Just have two big plates so the bar is at the right height off the ground. You should be able to pull that amount with proper form if you can get more than 300 pounds up with a rounded back!

    Chest up, hips down! Believe me, it's better to lift less weight with better form. A lot of the trick of the deadlift is keeping your form ABSOLUTELY locked down at any weight you lift.

    Don't worry too much about the lack of progress - you'll already be making progress getting the form of this lift straightened out. And don't be too hard on yourself - these are complex lifts. That's why you see so many people doing the machines and calling that a workout.

    Study up, practice your form, and put up another video soon!
     
  10. theMasters

    theMasters Active Member

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    These guys are dead right about form, especially with DLs.
    One thing I do is look up a video from starting strength's wiki page the day before DLs. Helps to refresh memory.
     
  11. goonie

    goonie Active Member

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    Yeah, chasing down your squat numbers with that kind of form would not be my recommendation.

    I'd make it more of a priority to go through a phase concentrating on getting your body in condition to be capable of setting up better when pulling from the floor.

    So if that's 8-12 weeks of drilling on form, with reps focusing more on technique rather than loading, then do it. The necessary mobility and stretching work to support these goals should be included (the bulk of which should be done away from your more strength focused lifting sessions).

    Don't get caught up in trying to demonstrate or push your strength to its absolute limits right now. As long as you stay healthy and free of major injury, long term progress in this department is a given for a guy like you.
     
  12. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    I don't know why someone would be offended at people saying the form is horrible, it's the point of the video, but regardless:

    If the form is that far off, and considering there are deadlifts in my current program, I think I'll just cut the three weeks off of it and start something for deadlifts. I have something posted further up, I'd like suggestions on things to change. So far, I just know to start pretty much from scratch for deadlifts and focus on form.

    Edit: Someone mentioned my lower back being rounded from something chronic, and I assume that means my lower back is weak, which I also assume means I should be doing a lot of good mornings, hyper extensions, etc.?
     
    #32 Dalton, Feb 20, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  13. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    Alright, someone considered three days a week of heavy lifting won't work too well, so how about one day of heavy lifting for squat, bench, and military, enough to keep squat and bench where they're at (five reps at max weight), and then continuing a 3x5 w/ linear progression with military press. On the other two days, I'll do my deadlift, good mornings, lat pulls, dumbell rows, and shrugs. I've never done good mornings, and limited shrugs, so what kind of weight should I be doing for those, and what kind of Set x Rep scheme would you suggest (keeping in mind my deadlifts will be starting at 135, and staying there until form is good, and my row is very weak, 70lbs dumbells for three sets of five is what I was doing before this, although that could've been increased)?
     
  14. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    It does not necessarily mean your lower back is weak. It could indicate upper back weakness. Or no weakness at all.

    Here's my simple approach (neutral spine) to deadlifting:

    Stand up straight with your shoulders neither pulled back nor hunched forward. Take a picture. Does it look like you are standing up straight with shoulders neither pulled back nor hunched forward? OK then, that is approximately what your back shape should be through the whole deadlift from bottom to top and back down again.

    Now your video shows that you are bending forward with your whole back. You would like to avoid that. Keep the back shaped like it is when you are standing up straight.

    Now if when you look at the picture of you standing up straight, your back still looks bent forward like that, then it's really much more likely that you have upper back weakness than lower back weakness. So I'm sticking with my thinking that you want lat and trap work.

    Also: If your back is shaped like that during squat? We got to fix that too or else you could get hurt.
     
  15. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    No, during squats, because of how the hands are pulled back to the bar, my back stays straight. Also, my back is pretty messed up posture wise as it is, let me get a picture of my back like you suggested.

    Edit: Here's a picture with my shirt pulled forward as so not to hang. When I stand normally, my shirt hangs in a way that make sit look straight. Lately, I've been standing with my shoulders further back and my chest more upright, becase I realize my posture is bad and I'm trying to correct that. I'd agree with my upper back being weak.

    http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1020659ae8.jpg
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #35 Dalton, Feb 20, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  16. artizzztik

    artizzztik Active Member

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    I agree with the previous post. It's entirely possible that there is no real weakness to remedy - it could really just come down to pure form, to recognizing and pegging the right way to hold yourself before you initiate the pull.

    The reason I'm suggesting to cut out a whole hunk of that weight you were lifting is not because of a potential weakness, but because of a potential for injury. The only way to improve your form is with lots of practice, and it's better to practice with a lighter weight until the stresses on your body become predictable.

    And if there IS a weakness, and you ARE lifting with excellent form - with ALL your lifts, but especially with the deadlift - you'll close that gap in surprisingly little time. The road to real and lasting strength is paved with doing your lifts with perfect form. Once you have it down pat, it's only a matter of incrementally adding weight as soon as you can tolerate it.

    Rows, might I add, can be very helpful for strengthening your back, and don't seem to carry as much risk as deadlifting. While you're working on your form, fill in the lost work with rows, pull-ups, and things like that.
     
  17. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    I was planning on that the whole time. I think I'll add in some rear delt rows as well. I also realized your purpose for taking off a lot of the weight.
     
  18. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    Not that bad actually as far as the picture shows. Keep it like that when you deadlift.

    I do suspect the upper back, lats, traps, etc. is the target here though.
     
  19. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    Alright, well, tomorrow would normally be a workout day, so I'll try out some stuff. What would you suggest as a sets/reps and weight progression plan? After a bit of real light work focusing on form, that is.
     
  20. Dalton

    Dalton Active Member

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    Well, I'm about to ready to go to sleep, so here's what I plan on doing tomorrow:

    Deadlift - 3 sets of 5 with 135lbs, video of form

    Good mornings - I don't know how much weight to use for these, so I'll start with the bar for five reps and go from there, also will have a video for form

    Dumbell rows - I'll do 80lbs for three sets of five.

    I'll also post a rough, full plan for you guys to check out. But that'll wait until tomorrow.
     

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