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Dangerous

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by CASABLANCA, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    Anybody interested in picking up a DVD or video from one of the true greats of our time, should look into Larry Scott's Hyper Growth. Why? :confused: He was the first Mr. Olympia, and today in his 60's is in better shape than guys half his age. Also, as one of Vince Gironda's trainee's, he demonstrates the correct way to perform some of the most productive movements ever created.(and you've probably never seen) Be warned though...this is not a video for those seeking proof that absolutely strict form is the key to maximum muscle growth.
     
    #21 Kino, Mar 11, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2005
  2. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Are we promoting cheating as a way to size and strength? Should the teenagers be taught that proper form doesn't mean a thing. Even Arnold says use proper form in his books.

    I say use proper form, if you are really strong than do it right. Most aspects of form seek to concentrate the effort on a particuliar muscle or prevent injury. Don't use curls to build your back, if you trying to build your arm.
     
    #22 RTE, Mar 11, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2005
  3. Banditfist

    Banditfist Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Cheating has its place. It has it purpose to add size and strength. The key is to determine when to cheat and when to use good form.

    Critiqueing pros on their form based on pictures is not a idea. You have no idea what the context was when the picture was taken. How many times in this forum has it been stated that you have do what is right for you. One workout program may work for one person may not work for another. Same with diets. There is not a one-size-fits-all formula. To be a professional bodybuilder, you must have figured something out that works for you.
     
  4. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    85% of people coming to these boards may never have pickup a barbell before a year ago. We have 12 year old coming to this board. Some don't identfy their ages. I could care less what Arnold did in a 30 year old photo or what any pro does.

    I think the advice to a beginner should not be do your own thing or do it like the pros. But I can't stop others, I can only do my part to give good advice.
     
  5. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    While I understand where you're coming from in the above statement, and agree for the most part...I think that it could be over generalizing to an extent. There are also members here that have progressed in their training very well in however short a period of time. They shouldn't be constrained by the thought that every movement should be done in the strictest form possible. If every movement we did throughout our day was done in a strict predetermined pattern, we'd all be moving like robots. It's probably as far from natural as you could get. But that's another topic all together...*cough* Functional Training
     
    #25 Kino, Mar 11, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2005
  6. Nico

    Nico Well-Known Member

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    I think the term 'good form' is relative to the exercise. There are ways to cheat that are safe and work the muscle better than trying to do the motion to a count of 3 or 5 or whatever slowness would guarantee 'good form'.

    For instance-tricep kickbacks. If you try to do these slowly you'll never be able to use any amount of weight that will stress the triceps enough. You've got to swing it a little. People tell me all the time I'm doing them 'wrong' because I'm not doing them slowly and it infuriates me.

    I also disagree that 85 or 90 percent of the people on this board have never worked out with weights. From my experience it's maybe 50/50.

    I think it's fair to say that there's good cheating and bad cheating. I've already described good cheating. Bad cheating is someone doing side delt raises with a weight that's double what they can control and swinging it up with pure momentum-that's unsafe. Then they wonder why they have shoulder impingement problems and a stiff neck all the time. Or people slamming the bar off their chest on the bench press and thrusting their ass two feet off the bench to make the rep. Cheating is a waste if you're just doing it do make your rep by avoiding work, then you're just going through the motions and you haven't challenged your muscles. But by doing everything superslow and stopping at the point where it seems that you failed, you're missing out on a lot of work that could be done if a little more momentum was used.

    You are always using momentum no matter how slow you go, so it's just a matter of degree's of cheating. The only way to eliminate momentum is to do the rep so slowly that they become a series of isometric contractions. I don't know any pro's who work out like that.
     
  7. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Form also can prevent injury. Your mention of "functional" aspects, also goes to sports, in most sports movements there is a proper form. In your paddling a kayka, isn't there a proper form. If you were teaching someone, would you say "do what you want". Or as a trainer, will you tell them " Here is how this exercise is performed, in a few months, you can do it any way you want, because the idea is to use more weight. Just get it up".

    If someone is strong then they ought to be able to exercise in form. If you use momentum you relieve the muscle of its tension. Increased momentum makes the exercise easier, your goal should be to make it harder work with smooth motion that doesn't jerk your muscles and joint. Look at all the knees, back and shoulder injuries reported here. Where do they come from?

    And I repeat, Arnold in his book, I am sure he didn't write it but he must have approved it, said about the exercise shown " Remember that this is a back exercise - you are not suppose to do much lifting with lower back or legs. If you find you are not able to do so without swaying and lifting up with your back to an excessive degree, you are simply using too much weight and should take off a plate or two. However a small amount of movement is inevitable. But be certain to keep your back straight or even slightly arched and never bend over hunchback-fashion which would result in injury".

    I would rather people remember those words rather then do as you want to.
     
  8. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

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    This seems to be a never-ending discussion.

    Strict and cheats are two sides of the same coin-imagine trying to row a rowboat in "strict" form..? Same with kick-backs, as mentioned, and same with Arnold with his favorite biceps bullk builder, low rep strict + cheat curls with heavy weight.

    Arnold's not the last word in training BTW, but that quote's been misinterpreted-he's not saying cheating's bad, he's saying not to lift with the lower back, which isn't the same thing. He's always used strict and cheat reps in much of the training, because the combo is one of the best ways to go, excluding some of the HIT sects that espouse only strict reps.

    HIT only believes in strict reps, but then supports the use of negatives and forced reps, which in effect are very similar-all are used in the same fashion towards the end of the set to up the intensity and allow the set and intensity to continue.
     
    #28 pumpster, Mar 11, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2005
  9. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

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    Please don't pretend to think you know what I might teach my clients. This is one of those topics that comes up in here where "you" defend your stance, while others try to discuss that there are reasons why too, or not too be concerned with drop dead strict form. Everybody's right here. There is NO CORRECT WAY TO TRAIN. There are ways to train that will help to reduce injury, but that is another area that that seems to be overlooked, and on some occassions even discouraged in here. It's called maintaining ones functional flexibility. Lack of proper flexibility leads to improper length-tension relationships. Improper length-tension relationships lead to arthrokinetic disfunction. (improper joint mobility and function) Arthrokinetic disfuction is what ultimately leads to joint injuries while relative flexibiltiy (the body seeking the least path of resistance to create and/or allow for a particular movement or posture) leads to pulled back muscles, and muscle strains. Moving ones arms and legs in a straight up and down pattern repeatedly does absolutely bupkiss for the promotion of functional flexibility. If anything, it helps to retard it. Fortunately, some members know enough to perform some type of stretching either before or after training. Advice such as "I don't feel the need to perform a warm up" isn't exactly confidence inspiring. So, if you want to quote me on my statements that were obviously thrown out there sarcastically, you should at least keep some congruency in your own advice.
     
    #29 Kino, Mar 11, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2005
  10. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    That is the only thing you have said that I agree with. I could have gotten tons of quotes saying don't cheat, I just thought since it was his picture, we should have an exact quote of how he said to do the exercise in his book.

    You seem familiar with how Arnold exercised did you see him exercise or weider mags?
     
  11. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    I knew you wouldn't advise your clients in that manner, I threw it out for you to come back with a No. As for my comments on warm-ups, I disagree with you on their preventing injury but I might be wrong to tell them what I believe in that area. They won't hurt and they might make someone feel better. I try not to say don't do them. I just say I don't do them. But I will just ignore those questions in future. You had a point there.
     
  12. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

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    So if everyone trains like ronnie we will all be huge in what... 10 years?
    Over cheating promotes the use of momentum to get the weight up, which limits the the amount of stress on the targeted muscle.
    Your muscles dont know if your lifting 100lbs or 120lbs it responds to the relative stress you give it.
    Just because you use the 120lb weight doesn't mean you've stimulated growth.
    Only with controlled form can you accurately say you have increased the intensity this week.
    You are all entitled to cheat all you like, makes zero difference to me but promoting it to beginners is a huge mistake.
     
  13. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

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    This sr. member's apparently a retiree with lots of free typing time and a love of "debate" aka arguing.
     
    #33 pumpster, Mar 11, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2005
  14. John Stone

    John Stone Every day is Leg Day
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    Hey, no one has crossed the line in this thread but YOU. Good debate is what this forum is all about, and this thread has been interesting and civil - at least until your post. If you don't have anything meaningful to add to the discussion, then you shouldn't be posting.

    I think you owe rtestes an apology (via PM, so as not to derail this thread any further).
     
  15. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

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    This is one sentence i can agree on. :jumping:
    Its true that some exercises require a slight "swing' to get going but thats all.
    As long as the muscle in question is doing most of the work then your form is good.
    Too much momentum from too much swing is counter productive.
    Bodybuilding is not about lifting the heaviest weight possible as easily as possible, you can't overload your muscles like that.
    Overloading your muscles is what stimulates the growth.
     
  16. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

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    I would be contradicting myself if i was an olympic lifter.
    Im not trying to be an olympic lifter, are you? ;)
    Im sure some of these lifts could benefit a bodybuilder but the technique can't be used for all bodybuilding exercises.
    And im sure an olympic lifter would have precise technique to lift the huge weights they do.
     
    #36 glenn_001, Mar 12, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2005
  17. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

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    ok :spaz:
     

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