1. Have you installed the new JSF Mobile app? Check out all the details here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. One account & one avatar for all of JSF. Unified login and profile. Forum alerts on the main site, and more. Check out the details here: Forum & main site unified account feature is live!
    Dismiss Notice

Dangerous

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by CASABLANCA, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. CASABLANCA

    CASABLANCA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Arnold back is curved . I think it's a dangerous way to do T-bar row like this .
    Do you use a narrow grip when you do T-bar ?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. brezman

    brezman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, it is.

    Surprisingly, most Pros have horrible form. Or at least they're always photographed and videotaped using bad form. I seen most of the top Pros videos and they almost always are just throwin weight around like crazy, Coleman in particular.

    But they obviously know what works for them.
     
  3. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    4
    In his Encyclopedia, he says keep back straight or slightly bent but not hunchback. You have to wonder if he had taken 1 or 2 plates off and done the exercise slow and controlled, no yelling or grimacing, would he have build less or more muscles. Who knows?

    I use narrow grip on most back exercises. I never go wide grip, beyond shoulders, anymore.
     
  4. Gillisc

    Gillisc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2004
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could be that he threw on a few extra plates, which, along with the facial grimace, makes a more dramatic photograph

    I'd prefer to think ego & vanity are present rather than the alternative, that he has bad form all the time.
     
  5. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's a very temporary position in a shot taken while cheating at the end of the set. The tip-off's the slight blur seen on the plates-that shot was taken during the split seconds that he and the plates were in motion. Cheating after hitting failure doing strict reps is one of several great ways to increase the intensity and improve.

    Photograph anyone rowing and doing some extra cheats and you'll get all sorts of misleading angles, each for a split second whilst in motion.
     
    #5 pumpster, Mar 5, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2005
  6. Banditfist

    Banditfist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    2,491
    Likes Received:
    3
    and he is probably barefoot too! I wish I could do legs without shoes at my gym. Most people wouldn't understand.

    I agree with the above. You have no idea if he is finishing up his set with a couple cheat reps (form is not as important), or if he is just hitting a ton of weight for the pictures.

    It is hard to doubt Arnold with what he did. Fast reps, slow reps....he did what worked for him. The only thing I ever question about Arnold is what would he have been like with today's steriods. Coleman would destroy him today verses what Arnold looked like. Very said that aestetics no longer matter and it is all about mass. I like women's fitness contest because it is about fitness and not mass. One girl (I think she is a girl) scares the crap out of me. I have to do a double take everytime I see her to make sure that she is a she. But, when I see her pull a 455 deadlift it gives me motivation to continue on past 500.
     
  7. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think a beginner cheating in this manner in any exercise would be putting themselves in high risk of injury, but i think the pro's have enough development to get away with it more.
    Good form or bad form, you will still build muscle, but with bad form you really slow the process down considerably as the muscle targeted is not doing all of the work it should be. :db:
     
  8. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not a matter of getting away with it. Cheating is one of various effective devices that if used in moderation after doing strict reps, pushes the envelope towards better development by overloading the muscles.
     
    #8 pumpster, Mar 6, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2005
  9. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    4
    I can imagine cheating after you can complete desired reps in proper form but I see so many drug bloated monsters cheating from rep one. I wonder who is the strongest, someone who uses proper form for 8 reps or someone who cheats with 10 lbs more from rep one. and get 10 reps? Same thing for time under load. Who is strongest, the person who can do 10 reps in 20 sec or someone who does 10 reps in 80 sec with same weight? You can find out for yourself which is the toughest?

    I am more impressed with the guy who very smoothly, calm, cool and collected picks up the weight and moves thru each rep in a slow controlled manner, with out yelling, gritting teeth, even if he might use 20-30 lbs less. The person that uses his biceps for curl rather than his back and hips.
     
  10. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice, polite strict reps are fine, but for max. development, cheats and other post-failure techniques separate the men from the boys on rows. That's the point that it gets interesting, and very challenging to push the envelope to the next level. Depends how ambitious one is..I train the same way, there is no other way for some of us-we like it!

    I'm not sure i see any evidence that today's "drug-bloated monsters" are doing anything other than same-strict reps first, then take no prisoners reps later, going for broke. Exactly as it should be. Drugs or not, that kind of intensity's inspiring.
     
    #10 pumpster, Mar 6, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2005
  11. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yes, I am stating my opinions. You are stating yours, we differ. I am suggesting you can push your limits in different ways. Out of the 1000's signed up at this web site, how many even want to have the body of Arnold, even if it was possible without drugs? 5% or 10%? I think I said I didn't lift weights to see how much I could lift, that never interest me. You said most "men" did. We disagree.

    I have always trained to look better, even there, I haven't been possessed.

    BTW: I never thought Arnold was bloated, I have a problem with the last 15 years of bodybuilding.
     
    #11 RTE, Mar 7, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2005
  12. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have no doubt your right, as long as its performed the way you say,
    but as rtestes said, quite a lot cheat from rep one.
    I will be putting on 20lbs of lean mass this year, and it certainly wont be happening with excessive cheating. :bb:
     
  13. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would be interesting to know how you know that some are cheating from the first rep.
     
  14. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Its quite easy to see.
    Watch any pro video and you'll see some great examples.
    I dont really care, its up to the individual how they wish to train, makes no difference to my life.
    Its just funny to see ppl slow their progress like that.
    Some ppl dont know any better, some just like to stroke their ego.

    But the technique you describe is fine, i do it myself only on the last 2 reps to failure ,usually only on barbell curls though.
     
  15. Kino

    Kino Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,086
    Likes Received:
    4
    This is one of those topics where no matter what you think, somebody's going to disagree with you. :rolleyes: (BTW...I'm on both sides of this arguement) Throwing all professionalism aside...I say do whatever the hell you want, and if you end up getting hurt, you might not want to keep doing it that way. :lol:
     
  16. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where is it written in stone that somehow strict reps are better? Some programs have emphasized strict reps so much that some believe that this is the only way. Not. HIT espouses ultra-strict reps and even very, very slow reps, which i don't believe in at all-nice way to run down the central nervous system. IF today's guys are cheating from the first rep, it might be just for the camera and for video purposes, but in any case, it's working!

    As long as you're warmed up and are not getting hurt, i'm not sure there's any difference whether heavier weights and cheats are used throughout the set or not, as long as the muscles are feelin' it. Might even hit the muscles better to cheat most of the time with heavier weights in some cases.

    Reminds me of negatives done with weights that are too heavy to lift up; similar concept and something that's considered viable.
     
    #16 pumpster, Mar 7, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2005
  17. glenn_001

    glenn_001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    ok.. :gl:
     
  18. Methodx

    Methodx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    0
    What are some of the "pro videos" you guys are talking about?

    Are there videos of the pro bodybuilders working out? Is it an instructional video?

    If anyone can provide an example, that would be great, thanks.
     
  19. Nico

    Nico Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's hard to work your back to the limit without a little cheating on the heavy sets. In my opinion the grip and biceps give out before the larger muscles in the back when you move very slowly, so you throw in some momentum and move heavier weight and you'll definitely feel the difference.

    As for safety, he is doing a t-bar row with the 'old' setup, where the bar is latched to the ground and there's nothing for you to lean on. So if you put five plates on there the only 'safe' way to do it is to lean back and have a rounded lumbar spine, or else the force of the weight pulling you forward will generate some serious shearing forces on your back as you try to maintain a neutral spine but are unable due to being out of position.

    The taller you are the more you would have to round the lower back to do these old t-bar's, and Arnold was among the taller guy's around.

    I wouldn't go recommending to a novice that they should have a rounded back when doing any sort of row or deadlift though-for the millions of people who get laid out from low back problems every year it's usually from spinal buckling resulting from bending over without maintaining a neutral spine. It's a technique that many powerlifters use and is safe provided the angle of force isn't compressing the discs. The most dangerous move in the gym would have to be stiff legged deadlifts with a rounded back, but regular deadlifts require a lot of people to have a rounded back, so it's a gray area.
     
  20. pumpster

    pumpster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Totally-rows are tailor made for cheats, it enhances the effects. In fact and as mentioned, doing this kind of thing strict can be harder on the back, and not as intense, from my own experience. Just imagine real rowing in a boat, there's absolutely no doubt they're "cheating" as part of the natural rowing movement!
     

Share This Page