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Curls/tricep extensions really needed?

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Brutus, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Zen, I missed your response to me in the cardio forum, it was sent two days later, I thought you missed my question or ignored it. I suppose I am going to have look up those epidemiological studies, he referred to. He seems to not do any original research but only suggest what others might say. I will try to find out what that 35% and 27% and 31% really mean and how it was measured.

    Yes, exercise is good, and I keep in the back of my mind that it would make sense that it was good for our health. I just don't have any proof to my satisfaction. I will continue to exercise as I have done for over 50 years. I will smile and say I do it for the looks, if it increases my longevity that is icing on the cake.

    I will mix up my single-joint and my multiple-joint exercises because I know they both build muscles. Even if you do chins, the effect on the bicep is diluted compared to the effect on the lats. You will get more directed work on the bicep muscle with curls. I would suggest others checked with exrx.net to see what muscles are affected by the exercise and in what manner.
     
  2. guava

    guava Elite Member
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    I don't know about anyone else, but the first things I notice about the way a person looks is a good tall posture that comes with a strong back.

    Bodybuilders do bicep curls, so I doubt they're completely useless.
     
  3. zenpharaohs

    zenpharaohs Elite Member
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    As far as that study goes, that is what is called a "meta-analysis". That's when someone decides to propose a rigorous methodological examination of the existing literature to see if when you pool the data of many experiments, you can accumulate the evidence to get a clearer answer than you might get from any single study.

    Now there are a lot of rules about how to do a meta-analysis, otherwise you could just pick the studies by their results, to pretend to support whatever bias you have. So in order for a meta-analysis to be useful, they have criteria for what study methodology will be included. Then they have to be able to combine the data of the studies that are included in a way that accurately reflects the evidence in the studies. When people originally started the idea of a meta-analysis it was with the idea that you might get enough statistical significance by using all the evidence in cases where nobody was able to do a big enough study for any one of them to be significant.

    You can get an idea by considering the following example. You watch people play at a craps table, and you want to know if the dice are loaded. If you wait until it's your turn to shoot, and only consider your rolls, you might not get enough data to tell. But if you go over to the bar and ask the previous twenty shooters what rolls they got, you can have a better chance of telling. You might choose to only take into account the rolls of the shooters who have had less than three drinks at the bar, or to exclude the guy who didn't keep track of his rolls. But it turns out to avoid bias, you probably want to decide what you are going to include and exclude BEFORE you interview them. Otherwise you are at risk of including people who got one sort of result and biasing your ultimate estimate. But the main point is that even though no single one of those shooters might have had enough rolls to tell on their own if the dice were loaded, by combining their results, you might have a much better chance of getting a useful result.

    The other really popular thing about meta-analyses is that they cost a whole lot less to do than the original experiments, and there is pretty much no need to get them reviewed for ethics, etc. I'm not being crass about that either - if you can honestly answer a research question in the library then that is where you should do it.
     
    #23 zenpharaohs, Apr 10, 2008
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  4. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    Yeh, I have been to school before and reseve the right to decide if I think a study is good or bad. I would like to see what the studies say. But, thank you for responding. on that.
     
  5. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    Isolation exercises are not necessary by any stretch, but they can be helpful.


    Totally disagree. If a person's goal is functional strength, then that person doesn't, by default, have a program that is not "well-rounded" if he/she neglects aesthetic considerations.
     
  6. profdlp

    profdlp Well-Known Member

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    Since you describe yourself as "not sure", here's a novel idea:

    If you have been doing the bicep curls and tricep extensions, lay off them for 6-8 weeks and see if you like the results.

    If you haven't been doing the bicep curls and tricep extensions, give them a try for 6-8 weeks and see if you like the results.

    This way you'll really know if they are worth it for you, and not just doing what someone else finds beneficial for them.
     
  7. Azure

    Azure Active Member

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    In between deads, rows, bench press, dips, chinups, pullups and pulldowns....I don't have time to do curls.

    My biceps are growing just fine as is.

    But that still doesn't mean it wouldn't help.

    I still agree with Zen though.....compound exercises ARE better, and should be the focal point for ANY beginner.
     
  8. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    That's the amazing thing that struck me about this forum. It seems that about 80 percent plus of the newbies that come on here looking for direction are people who are pretty significantly overweight/fat, people who are seeking to use weight training in support of a net decrease in body weight. Traditionally of course we probably think of guys who are new to weight training as guys who are probably skinny and looking to use weight training to support a net increase in body weight.

    I dare say that back in say R Testes' youth that the majority of newbie guys who went to gyms were so but what has happened is that in Western countries like the U.S. and U.K. is that in the last 30 years or so the diet has got so bad in terms of huge swathes of the population regularly gorging on junk food and the lifestyles have become so sedentary and lazy with increased car ownership, people spending hours watching T.V. etc. and possibly also decline in manual labour jobs and more people in service industry sedentary office/clerical jobs that there has been an amazing increase in the proportion of the population who are clinically overweight and obese.

    Plus I dare say there was a time that overweight people weren't advised to do weights but were more likely to be told to run, cycle etc. till they dropped the weight. Nowadays it's catching on that to lose weight people should incorporate weight training in their plan.
     
  9. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    I think its R. T. Estes, but, R. Testes is funnier. :lol:
     
  10. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    In RT Estes' day, It is true that overweight kids made up an extremely small percentage of the population due to activity of the youth. Our diets made McDonald's look good. I ate a couple of dozen cookies and 1/2 a gallon of milk before supper. I never did situps hardly because I didn't want muscles to increase my 28" waist size and ruin the V shape. But you did need the arms for the tight T-shirts. We got all our shirts tapered.
     
  11. odin1642

    odin1642 Active Member

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    Oh shit is that his name ? Damn I thought it was some kind of reference to testosterone or something:D.


    Sorry R:tu:. Actually I just gave your name a mention in another thread in the fat loss forum:lol:
     
  12. xclutch

    xclutch Active Member

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    i eat more than my american friends, yet because of my DNA and my crazy metabolism I gain 1/2 the weight my friends would eating the same meal. High metabolism pisses me off :(
     
  13. HevyMetal

    HevyMetal Well-Known Member

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    IMO it would depend on what your goals are.

    I don't think Curls will help overall functionality any more than doing Leg extensions will help your Squat.

    It might if you throw in a minor set at the end of a workout.

    A while back I was trying to get bigger Bi's and was doing Curls religiously. Didn't help my Chin ability at all...in fact it hindered it.

    Haven't done Curls for months now....other than a really light pump of 15 to 20 reps per workout. My Chins are way up.

    Muscle size has not diminished.

    BUT.....I am going for more of an MMA/Functionality result these days.

    If my name was Mastover I would indeed do Curls.

    But I'm not going totally cosmetic right now. I, at the moment, would rather be superfit "functionally" than just go for looks.

    Rows and Chins can absolutely "hammer" your biceps. It's all in the way you do 'em.

    For instance...if you do Seated Rows on a cable machine using D-handles (love dem D-handles on a "Y" chain), you can alternate the grip from over hand to under hand during the same ex. ( Pull----over-hand, Release-----underhand...or vice versa).

    A Seated Pulldown with your butt on the floor can be done the same way with the same equipment.

    Try Chins with a Hamilton-grip rig and then do a set overhand on the bar and then do a set palms facing on the bar.

    Same thing for Bent-over Row....alternate grip.

    One-arm Pulldowns with a D-handle, alternating grip, can toast your bi's too.

    But as I said, these days I'm going for Compos, Functionality, etc .etc.
    basically.
     
  14. JoeSchmo

    JoeSchmo Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Good post Hevy. You summed it up very well. :nod:
     
  15. xclutch

    xclutch Active Member

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    Without doing bicep curls, they might not get any smaller, but doing bicep curls do they get a lot bigger?
     
  16. BigBad

    BigBad Well-Known Member

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    Old time strong men never used them. They were strng and many were well balanced. I remmember once a trainer told me to cut them out, when I complained that my arms are not getting big. He said I was over taxing the arm muscles.
     
  17. HevyMetal

    HevyMetal Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this is getting off-topic but there is one "iso" I would do (and do)regardless....

    That's rear delt work.

    And I have found that the Cable Rear Delt Raise (one arm) hits 'em beautifully.

    Why cable?

    Because doing them this way you can keep constant resistance on the delt throughout the movement.

    As opposed to where you have 2 dumbells hanging down in front of you and try to "flye" them up while you're bent-over. In this method the full weight doesn't kick-in until your arms are outstretched.

    If using machine cable:- Stand sideways to the machine...Grasp handle with your outer-facing hand. Bend over to 90 degrees, so body is parallel with floor. Bend knees a little. Put inner-side hand on inner-side knee for support.
    At start of pull, your pulling arm should not be "straight down". It should now angled over inward to about 20 degrees or so.

    Pull handle in a crescent sweep outward and upward until it is slightly higher than your body. Now bring it back "controlled".

    On just about any machine you can get as much if not more weight up eventually than you can using a d.b. So the weight itself is not an issue.

    If using a Total Gym Or Total Trainer -type rig:-

    Put your knees on the glide -board at 90 degrees to the upward travel of the board. Bend over until your upper body is parallel to the board and support your upper body by putting your inner-facing hand on the outer edge of the glide-board for support. Grasp handle with outer-side hand and perform movement the same way as machine. Make sure to get the "crescent" motion in. Don't just pull the handle straight out.


    Although Deads,Mil Press and Bench use Delts assistively, the Rear Delt doesn't get hit too much.

    Throw in some Rear Delt Work to balance out the mix...:)
     

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