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Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Demon Knight, Sep 26, 2005.
Absolutely. But no strength gains? C'mon.
Honestly, not really. Maybe it's just me or my intensity or the fact that isolations are always last for the muscle group so I can't give it my all. I don't know, but isolation exercise numbers move up much slower than compounds.
Yeah, same with me. Isolations have helped me achieve hypertrophy in some areas, but quite honestly, I almost never experience any detectable change in strength from isolation work -- In fact, my strength doing pressdowns ironically never increased from doing pressdowns! They did increase dramatically after doing heavy weighted dips.
JUSTIN !!!!!!!!! YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!!!!!!! Agreed, gains are dramatically slower however they DO exist!!!!!!!!!!! That's all i'm saying.
Huh? Talking to me?
Nah, the other Justin.
Well..Iwas on isolations AND mass together for the longest time. Got some really good results physique-wise but was burned out a lot of the time. Now I'm on straight mass compounds. I'm actually stronger than when I did isolations. However workouts are trickier on compounds because there's only so many of them. And we all know you shouldn't do the same ex's every workout. Then again I've always done Full-body. Biceps respond better for me in size and strength by cutting down on the curls and increasing the chinups/pullups. I read an interesting article onthe net the other day where a trainer was saying that you only have to look at a gymnast (who uses rings) physique to see that you can get phenomenal lat and arm development by imitating the basic ring moves to some degree on pullup bars. He claimed frequency of moves was the key as opposed to just trying to jack the weight through ex's like One-arm DB rows etc. I can't argue with most gymnasts physiques. They usually look better than me. So I strongly believe in chins and pullups of all type and description. For the more adventurous (and insured) pullups and chins can be modified if you have the equipment to simulate the range of motion on some gymnast moves. e.g.- start by gripping the bar and then pull your legs up above you so you are hanging upside down etc. ( I've done these many a time at the local gym and was never told to stop doing them by staff).DISCLAIMER:- Newbies! Don't do these without supervision by a qualified trainer or personnel!!!!!! And for all the "hardgainers " out there I would recommend a mass only program especially if your a hardgainer ectomorph. You don't need to worry about "cutting" and "shaping"....you haven't got anything to cut or shape.
Without a doubt, copying gymnastic skills can give both phenomenal strength and amazing improvement to a person's physique.
But, while gymnasts definitely use chin/pull/muscle-ups, it's no where near as much as you'd think. The key to their impressive development is straight arm leverage work. If you examine the strength elements (front/back lever, cross, inverted cross, planche/maltese, victorian, even press handstands) and their progressions, you'll find there is very little bent arm work. Back in the day, there used to be a lot more of it, but the current aesthetic requirements have virtually eliminated it. Straight arm leverage work is THE element responsible for such impressive upper body muscularity.
Imagine being able to straight-arm lateral raise with half of your bodyweight in each hand and then being able to hold the dumbells parallel to the floor for 10-20 seconds. If you're a high level rings man (iron and, especially, inverted cross proficient), this should be a piece of cake. It's amazing, especially when you consider, perhaps, 75-85% of gym-goers can't bench press this weight, let alone lateral raise it in this fashion.
I'm not a huge fan of isolation or compound.
But aren't calf raises isolation? I'm pretty sure most people who do those can see progress in strength on that exercise. No?
I guess the upside down one is like that, but I thought pressing to iron cross is like some sort of pull down. Like if you did the lat raises with the dumbells while inverted.
Either way, you mentioning it makes my whole arms hurt.
That's true. Lowering the dumbbells while inverted trains a regular cross. Lowering them (from above your head) while you're not inverted trains an inverted cross. I used the lateral raise example because I didn't want to explain being upside down as well since isn't as directly relatable to most people's own lifting experiences. It's safe to say that if you can do an inverted cross, you've definitely already trained an iron cross and you have more than enough strength for this dumbbell example.
Just for more information than you'd ever want to know:
I think you mean lower to cross. Unless you happen to mean an elevator: starting from a hang (below the rings), do a straight arm pull-up to cross (or overhead press down depending on how you look at it, becoming level with the rings in either case), and then continue pressing from the cross to a support (above the rings, aka dip support position) -- it's really amazing to see (and usually is done in one continuous motion). You most often see lowering or swinging to a cross because they are the most useful ways to combine the skill with other strength elements. Elevators are more often used for training than competition because of their difficulty, but you will definitely see Olympians doing them.
Semantically, when you enter the cross from above the rings, it's a lower to cross and, when you enter from below the rings, it's a pull to cross. Once you're in the cross, you can press out from it.
So, with the exception of a pull to cross (which isn't all that common), the motion of entering a cross (as well as an inverted cross) should be thought of as the negative portion of a press.
You can see videos (training advice as well) at: http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/Rings/
P.S. Just thinking about all of it makes my arms and my head hurt!
Yeah but I'm thinking that upside down I have a lot better chance of holding those dumbells then right side up. Upside down I get my lats and pecs, but right side up it's lateral delt failure time.
My lat pull down is still not body weight though - no iron crosses for me in the forseeable future.
Just went over to drillsandskills; they didn't have a picture of an elevator; what I meant is sort of like what they called "Back uprise to cross".
Browsing over there gave me an idea for my next pushup goal (I just finished my previous one today). The next goal is one planche pushup. That out to take a while.
What about your biceps?
Unless I am mistaken isn't all bicep exercises (not back) considered isolation movements?
Direct bicep work such as curls (one of my very favorites), yes.
duh, brain fart.
I forget to mention all calf work as well.
I don't know of a calf exercise that exist that is considered a compound movement. I wish one did though. My calves are pathetic!
I just don't understand how ANYBODY can end a bicep workout without a couple of sets of concentration curls! Excuse the analogy but I liken it to having sex WITHOUT the orgasm!!!!! :d_eek: Of course this is MY personal preferrence.
Yup, they are isolation movements. Don't get me wrong -- I think isolation movements have their place, but I believe they are less effective for strength than they are for hypertrophy. Interesting that you should mention biceps though ... Those are the one bodypart I have alot of difficulty strengthening (either with compound or isolation). Methinks it is genetics .... I have excellent push strength, and those gains are almost effortless, but I am considerably weaker pull strength. I have had some gains though ... mostly by doing weighted chins, but am nowhere near where I want to be.
I have the same problem.
My pull strength is considerably weaker than push.
I recently started using an underhand grip on all of my back work to see if it helps.