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Cardio + Muscle Building?

Discussion in 'Fat Loss/Cutting' started by Yips, Nov 2, 2004.

  1. Yips

    Yips Well-Known Member

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    What form of cardio would be ideal for general fitness / burning fat without hindering my muscle builing. I currently do 16-18minute medium/high intencity cardio sessions 3 times a week. Is this sufficient for my goals? I read on the ASST site that 16-20mins of high intencity cardio is good for fat burning. However, just before whilst browsing I read that 45min at 50-60% intencity is better for burning fat. Which one is it? Thanks.

    PS: Also, what type of cardio is recommended for burning fat? Treadmill running or a bike work (Interval with hills)? :confused:
     
  2. vovo

    vovo Well-Known Member

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    who really knows.

    from what i have read ppl seem to debate this exact issue quite a lot.

    just passing on the general advice try both and monitor your bf% and your lbm then continue to use whatever works best.
    As for medium intensity it is reccommended that this is performed in a fastest state first thing in the morning.
    most importantly whichever you enjoy more, then you won't want to throw in the towel so quickly.
    or you could mix it up with HIIT on lifting days and a.m. medium intensity on other days etc.

    as for what exercise works best (eg. bike/ /) i think it is just the elevation of your heart rate and the burning of calories, so again whatever you enjoy more

    :gl:
    ~v
     
  3. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

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    The minimist answer is walk fo 30 minutes each night 15 min after main evening meal. You can make it aerobic, it adds up over time, you get to know your neighborhood and neighbors.

    Your Weight training could be three times a week whole body or one of the multi-day splits so popular here on the list.
     
  4. _Christopher_

    _Christopher_ Well-Known Member

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    Lower intensity burns more fat calories, yes...but high intensity burns more calories overall...and at the end of the day, what matters is TOTAL calories burned.
     
  5. SwoleCat

    SwoleCat Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Kcals burned is FAR from "all that matters". Not a flame, but this is the reason many cardio themselves into skinny b*tches w/no muscle to speak of. Then once they commence "regular" eating again, BOOM!!!!!!! They blow up like the world trade center.

    What if the majority of those "CALORIES BURNED" are from glycogen and lean muscle tissue as a result of very poor dietary habits, and the wrong type of cardio for the results desired?

    You become a smaller, just as fat, if not fatter, person with the loss of lean muscle mass and avoidance of true fat burning.

    It's never that simple, TRUST ME! U may wish to read this.

    http://216.27.200.156/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1767

    ~SC~
     
  6. NEdge

    NEdge Well-Known Member

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    Indeed a calorie is not a calorie, especially as you get into single digit BF.

    General fitness is not necessarily the same goal as burning fat. Do you want to be actually cardiovascular fit, or just look great?

    You had better have your nutrition wired before worrying whether one type of cardio is going to turn you into a bean, since you could do that without any cardio. Similarly you might be able to trim up while you bulk by tweaking your nutrition.

    PS Yup I'm a skinny bastard (at least compared to the bodybuilding types), but again it all depends what your goals are.
     
  7. Yips

    Yips Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    I want both :tu: Probably leaning more towards looking good rather then cardivascular fitness. However, I would like to improve my cardiovascular fitness as well. On nutrition, I eat a fair amount as my main goal is to add muscle mass to my frame. Could you list some light to medium meals that I could eat rather then snacking? Any help would be appreciated.
     
  8. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, you don't really offer the whole picture and it's very misleading. Any time cardio is discussed here, you immediately call anyone who does high intensity cardio foolish (in nicer words, maybe, but the point is obvious). I've seen the reference to a "smaller, fat person" used by you several times and it is just not true.

    Is fasted, low-intensity morning cardio optimal for fat loss? Perhaps. I haven't seen any studies proving yes or no. To be honest, I don't care because I'll never do it due to its monotony.

    However, I know from experience with both myself and tons of other people I know that doing high intensity cardio will not strip one of all his mass as easily as you say. If someone were to do all high intensity cardio, eat on a huge calorie defecit and not weight train, THEN what you say may be likely to occur. For those who eat enough food to support muscle maintanence and/or (preferably, 'and') follow a weight training program, the muscle loss will be minimal, if at all.

    Again, I'm not doubting your insistence upon the fact that only fasted, low-intensity cardio is optimal, so please don't start trying to prove to me that it is. It may very well be true, like I said earlier; I personally don't care. However, it's certainly not necessary to lose fat and maintain (or even gain, coughjohncough) muscle. No amount of reasoning will make me think otherwise because you can give me as many "scientific" facts as you'd like, but I've seen enough people use high-intensity cardio with exceptional results to trust that I (nor anyone else with a proper fitness plan) will wither away using it.

    And I hate to argue with the experts, but every new member here that asks about cardio, I see the same post by you and it's turning this forum into an anti-high intensity cardio forum. If that's how people want it to be, so be it. I just think everyone should know that there are other options and not be forced to think that the ONLY way you can successfully lose fat is fasted, low-intensity cardio.
     
    #8 karatetricker, Nov 12, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2004
  9. JeremyLikness

    JeremyLikness Well-Known Member

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    Um ... I love high intensity cardio, never was a fan of fasting morning cardio. When I do low intensity cardio, I always have something before hand - usually a high fiber shake with healthy fats, but nothing is more exciting to me than a short 20 minute session on the treadmill going from 6mph to 10mph on an incline! Didn't do too bad with cutting ... some might argue I could gain a bit of muscle, but I'm happy with this:

    http://www.naturalphysiques.com/gallery/jeremytransform/aug122003

    :)

     
  10. Mannen Gezondheid

    Mannen Gezondheid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Yips

    I've read that an interval training at 80% is the best to burn fat. You should run, ride, swim (or any other activity) during 1 min on high capacity (80%) and then 1 minute medium capacity (60%).
    Haven't tried it, but it appears that your body will burn the most fat this way...

    Good luck

    Christof
    www.mannen-gezondheid.com
     
  11. Knubb

    Knubb Well-Known Member

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    Interesting discussion. I'd like to chip in my views...

    To first adress the initial question, there is no type of cardio that you can do to burn fat that wouldn't hinder your muscle gaining in any way if you ask me. If you want to burn fat, regardless of cardio form, you need to (at least for some periods of time) be on a calorie deficit. If you want optimal muscle building, I believe that you want to be at a calorie surplus (even at an oh, so small one) at all times. That way you wouldn't burn fat at all. If you want optimal muscle building, don't try to burn fat.

    I may be wrong, since I haven't read much articles and stuff, but that's my view.

    From a personal perspective, with a lean mass of close to 220 lbs, I've never had to bother with losing a little muscle here and there (and never worried about getting fat either, sadly), since I'm fairly confident that if I do, I can get it back. I used quite high intensity cardio for my first 5 months of fat loss, without checking my macros or anything, and I certainly did not lose a lot of lean mass. Some, maybe, but hey... After that, I kinda didn't care for a few months. Right now, I'm doing low intensity cardio only, since I don't want to go out running with a slight injury to my right hamstring, preventing me from doing much stretching, which I feel I have to after high intensity cardio. I can't say if it is better or worse, but I like it (since I can play Playstation while doing it), and at the moment I am losing quite a bit of fat (even though my journal might have people believe otherwise, given my mood).



    As I see it, this whole discussion is kinda pointless unless you bring up one's intake of food. As NEdge said, if you don't have your diet in check, it doesn't matter anyhow. Without proper nutrition, no exercise is going to help you burn fat. Still, I'd like to assume that Yips does know what he's putting in his mouth.

    So, is SwoleCat right? Perhaps, I can't say that I know for sure. Obviously, he knows how to cut away fat without losing much (or any) lean mass, and that has to account for something, right? Many people, including lots of people here, have been helped by his programs, and had great results. What needs to be stressed though, is that the initial question was about what is optimal for burning fat while not burning muscles, not what works. I believe you can cut quite efficiently with high intensity cardio too, as karatetricker and Jeremy argues (btw Jeremy, you are beautiful the way you are, nobody but yourself should tell you to gain anything), but it might not be optimal for preserving lean mass. I agree wholeheartedly that promoting low intensity cardio as the only way of burning fat without losing all your lean mass is wrong, but as far as optimal goes, I do believe that SwoleCat is right. I believe he is right when he argues about calories also. It's not just calories in vs calories out, that's why people everywhere on this board is stressing the importance of not eating too little.

    Still, calling people with low lean mass "skinny b*tches" is way out of line. Some people prefer that extremely slim look, and giving them insults is in my eyes just as bad as someone saying that every muscular guy takes steroids or just have the genes to be that way. Quite recently, more and more thinner guys have been popping up in this forum in order to try to achieve a bigger frame. In my eyes, welcoming them by saying "Hey, you're perfectly fine the way you are, but if you want some more muscles, this might work..." instead of saying "You're a skinny b*tch, you need muscles, this might work...".

    I would like this to be a forum for everybody (even though it's up to John), not just those who strive for 300 lbs of lean mass with a BF% of 3...



    Sorry to go on and on, but I do that sometimes. My appologies...
     
  12. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, that was the original question. However, that need NOT be stressed here. Often, one question may lead to a whole discussion that is unrelated. That's what happens, as did here. Had the post I was referring to said:

    "Optimally, you should be doing fasted, low-intensity cardio to lose fat while maintaining LBM. However, let it be known that other forms of cardio are still beneficial."

    I would not have even responded. However, like I said above, it was not said like that at all and anyone without much knowledge on the topic can easily be misinformed. We don't want that now, do we?


    And for the record... I've seen people's results who have used both low-intensity fasted cardio and high intensity cardio. Let's just say from what I have seen, those who've used higher-intensity cardio have had better results. Others may have seen the oppposite, but from all the transformations I've seen in my day, that's just how it's been in general.
     
  13. Knubb

    Knubb Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you're saying, and I could have chosen my words better I think. I have a tendency to exaggerate now and then. I still think the original poster and his/hers questions should be the main priority though, even though I agree that SwoleCat should've chosen his words better too.

    I haven't seen any transformation that was really good actually (like going from 30% to abs), so I couldn't tell, but as far as I know, Swole does back his arguments with scientific data though.

    And for those of you asking, no, I'm not on any of Swoles programs.
     
  14. SwoleCat

    SwoleCat Well-Known Member

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    CAPS..........

    I DON'T BELIEVE YOU GIVE PEOPLE ENOUGH CREDIT TO THINK ON THEIR OWN, AND YOU ARE TRYING TO ACT LIKE THE CARDIO POLICE. I BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE THE ADVICE THEY WISH TO ADOPT, SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO AROUND LIKE BIG BROTHER. REALLY, IT'S A TURN OFF, LIKE YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST ME.

    WHATEVER THE CASE, I WILL NOT ARGUE PROVEN SCIENCE, NOR WILL I REFRAIN FROM OFFERING MY INSIGHT/TAKE ON THE BEST FORMS OF CARDIO FOR MAXIMUM MUSCLE RETENTION WHILE SHEDDING STORED BODYFAT.

    THANK YOU AND GOODNIGHT. ANY MORE ARGUING AND I'M GOING TO ASK JOHN TO LOCK THIS THREAD. I REALLY DON'T SEE THIS AS PRODUCTIVE AT ALL.

    ~SC~
     
    #14 SwoleCat, Nov 13, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2004
  15. SwoleCat

    SwoleCat Well-Known Member

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    Why? It's an article housed at MY site for people to take from it what they wish. You don't have to believe it, no one does, it's scientific proof, so if you don't believe it, well, you don't.
    :tu:

    How about this.......to each his own! How's that!

    ~SC~
     
  16. SwoleCat

    SwoleCat Well-Known Member

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    Case In Point

    Just for those who may have missed it.

    http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=7212&highlight=SwoleGenix


    Again, not to be a d*ck, but how you can argue with someone who gets results repeatedly, I've no idea.

    Again, if you want to do HIIT, then please do it. If not, then don't. I really don't care one way or the other, but don't call me out about my advice. Not until you can show me your own 7 page/130 reply thread about how you are changing people and their lives/happiness in record time.

    ~SC~
     
  17. John Stone

    John Stone Every day is Leg Day
    Staff Member Owner

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    I think I may have to classify HIIT cardio Vs. Aerobic cardio as a religious topic! :)

    Everyone, please relax.

    Come on. This forum is not pro-HIIT or pro-aerobic cardio. SwoleCat is entitled to his views, and has a right to express them as often as he wishes. SC can't "turn this forum into an anti-high intensity cardio forum" simply by expressing his views. The people here are not stupid, and they will make up their own minds.

    This may come as a shock to some of you, but I actually agree with SwoleCat on this issue. Yes, I lost a lot of weight doing HIIT cardio - but I also lost a lot of muscle. I mean, just look at me in the Summer of 2003. I was skin and bones. I've been doing aerobic-level cardio exclusively for duration of my bulk and you know what, IMO it works better than HIIT when it comes to burning fat and keeping muscle. I will probably never do HIIT cardio again for fat-loss purposes because I worked hard for my muscle and I want to keep it. I realize that not everyone agrees with my view on this, and that's cool. I know I once felt differently, but my mind was changed based on my own personal experiences. Honestly, I have to thank SwoleCat for opening my eyes to the possibility that I was wrong about HIIT cardio. I read his posts, thought what he said made sense, so I tried switching. Time passed and I'll be damned if he wasn't right on target. Does that mean everyone should stop doing HIIT? Nope. Like all things that are subject to opinion, make up your own mind.

    Let's continue to debate it, but let's try and keep it civil! Thanks.
     
  18. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually laughing over here. So pardon me while I regain my composure.

    SwoleCat, your arrogance is ridiculous. First of all, I have ALWAYS backed you up in the past so I am not just out to get you. Go through some old threads, and you will see you've even thanked me for it. However, as of late, your "my way or the highway" posts have really gotten to the point where enough is enough. This is a community that prides itself on being supportive and open-minded. Unless I am shelling out $XXX to you each month, you are neither of those things. Is there anything wrong with charging people for consultation? Absolutely not. There are other members here who do the same that I would be happy to pay for their services if I ever felt it was necessary.

    I'm not an expert. You are very correct. I don't make a living off of fitness, nor do I have as much experience as you. However, that does not by any means, mean that you can discount any credibility that I have. I can link you to 100s of posts I've made here that have helped countless people, but I really have nothing to prove. I have helped several people over the past several months make transformations out of the goodness of my heart either through AIM and/or E-Mail. Some it was a one time thing, others I spent weeks or months going back and forth assisting. You'd be surprised how many of them made remarkable progress. Is it because I'm some fitness guru? Absolutely not. I just reiterated a lot of what I learned on these forums to these people. However, I did take the time to explain how things work and help devise a plan of attack as well as keep them motivated. This is all really neither here nor there, but since you asked, I figured I'd mention it.

    Now let me just comment on a few things you said:

    AGAIN, IT'S SCIENCE! ARE THERE STUDIES, OF COURSE THERE ARE!!! YOU THINK I LEARNED WHAT I DID FROM ALIENS? AM I GOING TO POST THE 10000 STUDIES ON THE FACT THAT HIIT IS TOO INTENSE TO USED STORED BODYFAT FOR FUEL? NO, YOU CAN DO THAT RESEARCH, I ALREADY KNOW THIS, AS DO MOST. AGAIN, IT'S PROVEN SCIENCE, NOT OPINION........COME ON NOW........

    Science huh? Funny, because I've read numerous studies that showed HIIT being MORE EFFECTIVE for fat loss than low intensity cardio? Wait, I've also read that low-intensity cardio is more effective. Hold on, there was also a study that said high-intensity, long duration is best. Uh-oh, we have a confliction here. Whose studies are correct? Hopefully you get my point.


    WHAT YOUR IDEA OF "MASS" IS AND WHAT MY IDEA OF MASS IS, TOTALLY DIFFER I CAN SEE. I WORK WITH BODYBUILDERS BRO, AND THEY KNOW WHAT STRIPS FAT AND PRESERVES THE MOST MUSCLE.

    Ding, Ding, Ding. You work with bodybuilders. Please tell me the last time you saw these forums called "The John Stone Bodybuilding Forums". That's right, they're not, nor have they ever been. Perhaps you are posting on the wrong forum?


    Look, I'm not out to "get you". I value your knowledge and I know you do know what you are talking about. I never doubted that. You mistook my post and as usual you just went on an "I am the best" rampage that accomplished nothing IMO. I continuously said in my previous post that low-intensity cardio may be optimal. I AM NOT DOUBTING THAT FACT! It may also not be optimal. Like I said earlier, I don't care. All I am saying is that when someone who is new to fitness asks about cardio, there is no need for you to come in to a thread saying how anyone who does anything but fasted state, low-intensity cardio is an idiot who will end up as a skinny bitch. First of all, it's simply NOT TRUE. Second of all, higher-intensity cardio has so many other health benefits that if you were a true health professional, you would know this.

    You may respond to this, lock this, I don't care. My point has been made and I'm done debating with you. (Arguing is such a negative way to say it.)
     
  19. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

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    It does not take a "stupid" person to be mislead. It takes someone who is inexperienced and looking for an answer. Often, the first answer they find is the one that they accept.

    With all due respect, prior to the summer, you were eating 1200-1800 calories on a given day. Of course you're going to lose muscle mass with all the activity you were doing. Especially since it was on an empty stomach. Had you eaten more and done HIIT in a non-fasted state, I bet you would have seen different results.

    And for the record, I HATE HIIT. I am strictly talking about higher-intensity cardio about 75-85% of your MHR, which if I did your numbers right, is exactly what you yourself do John on the elliptical for 50 minutes.
     
  20. Knubb

    Knubb Well-Known Member

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    What I felt could've been expressed better was the part where you were talking about "skinny b*tches". It felt like you were putting down slim people, and I didn't really like that.

    I won't argue about what kind of cardio is better. As I said in my first post, I believe you're right.
     

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