1. Have you installed the new JSF Mobile app? Check out all the details here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. One account & one avatar for all of JSF. Unified login and profile. Forum alerts on the main site, and more. Check out the details here: Forum & main site unified account feature is live!
    Dismiss Notice

Abs before Cardio or Cardio before Abs?

Discussion in 'Weight Training/Bulking' started by Oranzith, Jan 29, 2005.

  1. supirman

    supirman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    720
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't say you "can't" do abs a million times per week, I just saidthere is no point to doing that for someone that simply cares aboutbeing in good shape and looking good. Doing abs every day won'tdo anything as far as that aspect is concerned so, as I said, therereally is little point to working them any more than once perweek. Certainly, if you ARE in martial arts and you have to doit, then by all means do it. But if you are simply trying to getinto good shape and look good at the same time, there is no point indoing all of the extra work.

    I'm sure most people are like me, they like efficiency. Doing absevery day is not necessary for developing aesthetically pleasingabs. And doing abs every day isn't going to build you any specialset of abs to make it not go away when you get fat. That simplyhas to do with your body and how it carries the fat.

     
  2. supirman

    supirman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    720
    Likes Received:
    0
    And to set the record straight... I don't even directly work myabs. So what I say isn't directly indicative of how I train myabs. I don't think my abs even need training, so I don't dothem. Without even traning my abs, you can see them to an extenteven when I'm at my fattest, which was around 20%.

    Go ahead and expend the extra energy doing countless ab workouts, andwhen I get my fat down to 10%, my abs will look and feel just as goodand I won't work them more than once every couple of weeks( and sayingI'll work them that much is being ambitious).


     
  3. Boxer-in-training

    Boxer-in-training Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    0
    Boy I have to agree with karatetricker. I think it depends on what your goals are. With me, having strong abs that can take repeated punches to the solar plexus is more important than just how they look. I don't do them everyday, just because I am so busy doing other stuff with my limited time. But he does have a point about conditioned athletes i.e. martial artists, gymnasts - that do them daily. It all depends on what your goals are!
     
  4. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    4,947
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, this pissing contest can go on forever, but for the record, I haven't worked my abs religiously in years myself...

    And honestly, expend the extra energy? It takes no more than 5 minutes to get in a decent ab routine.

    Anyhow, no sense in arguing any longer, this is getting nowhere. I was arguing about who is right and who is wrong. I was arguing over the same thing I seem to be constantly over here, and that is that a lot of people need to be more open-minded on a lot of issues. Just remember, what you do or worked for you may not be the "golden rule" to fitness. And no, that was not referring to you Supirman, just a general comment.
     
  5. wh0rume

    wh0rume Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    10,915
    Likes Received:
    10
    I think it's hard to be openminded when it comes to this stuff because what you said about abs (to non-experts) contradicts everything we thought we kind-of knew about muscle growth (how a specific muscle needs a week rest before it's worked again, yada yada yada)

    So any closedmindedness i think may be from frustration from that, or the fact that two separate/opposite philosophies on this subject had the same impressive results (you vs supirman). For me, the first paragraph applys.



     
  6. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    4
    That is new to me, a specific muscle needs a week of rest. Dang, just goes to show that some people don't believe the same thing, others do. Everything I know and believe about muscles says that is absurd.

    But, should I argue with people who believe that, I don't think so. I don't know why they believe that and I don't think I am wrong or will change my mind. I might point out I don't agree, so my opinion is stated. Maybe it would be better to start a new topic on same subject. Man, it is a tough problem, what do you do?

    Could all things be relative with no absolutes?
     
    #26 RTE, Feb 2, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2005
  7. Jono

    Jono Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    0
    do your abs whenever you want, it makes no difference.

    any ab workout should take no longer than 10-15 (max) minutes. an effective ab workout that is, anymore is essentially useless and counter productive
     
  8. RM. Andersson

    RM. Andersson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Messages:
    419
    Likes Received:
    0
    The body responds in different ways to different types of training. And it´s very good at adapting. If we talk about general fitness I think it´s good to know more than one way to do things. The results and progress might not be the same with different alternatives. And you must decide what you want to do. Know what your goal is. Know how to get there. But it also depends on genetics and on your level of fitness at this time. The best alternative for person A might not be the best option for person B even if they have the same long term goal.

    Regards!
     
  9. wh0rume

    wh0rume Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    10,915
    Likes Received:
    10
    sorry - didnt mean to say "we", i just meant "me" i guess, since muscle building hasnt been my focus yet. i know very little about muscles besides the fact that they are under skin (i think?)

    neway - can you give more feedback of what you meant by how it's absurd? (the 1 week thing)

    All i know is i thought i was supposed to do bench press (for example) once per week, giving the chest muscles plenty of time to heal/grow/etc. Is this the same type of absurdity you speak?

    so far while cutting i've kept all of my muscle mass, and maybe gained a few lbs too, so what im doing is definatly not WRONG, just very absurd, and i would like to remove any absurdity that i can from my routine. :D
    (this including abs)


     
  10. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    4
    I am of the strong opinion that 48 hours is sufficent time for any repair and recovery. I saw an article somewhere that they wanted to tie down repair to a 15 min period that occurred 30-42 hours later. Of course I took that with a grain of salt. To me, the concern is on placing body under stress, not a chest muscle.

    Remember our bodies have a lot of repair, growth, defense aginst diease, etc. going on all the time, even if you never lifted a weight. Now you throw weights into picture some, with splits, work weights in a volume manner 5 days a week, and don't forget those that have to do cardio maybe 7 days a week, too. But somebody tells you wait a week before you work a muscle again?

    Compound exercises, the ones that work more than one muscle, should be used. But, guess what you might work arms, back and legs each day in those splits with compound exercises.

    Everything works after a fashion, bodies adapt. I will continue to go to the conservative side on sets and reps and the amount of time I put body under stress. Then there is more non-exercise time available for recovery. less concern about individual muscle and more concern on body as a whole.

    I am glad your training agrees with you and you are having success. That is all that matters.
     
  11. karatetricker

    karatetricker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    4,947
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, is it absurd to work a specific muscle group only once per week? Absolutely not. You can work a muscle group only once per week with great results. However, to say that you must wait one full week to work the muscle again would be absurd. I know people with bodies some of us could only dream of having who work out the same muscle groups twice per week. Does it mean it's more effective? Not necessarily because there are people with just as good physiques who use the one week rule. The bottom line is there is no "rule", almost about anything with fitness. Millions of people have used so many different methods of reaching their goals that anyone who says you must do this or must do that is just being ignorant.

    And as for your gains, that is very impressive. Just keep in mind, if you are relatively new to lifting, "newbie gains" are almost a guarantee. Almost anyone who begins lifting after having never lifted or not in a long time will almost always see good results quickly, no matter what they do in the gym. That is not to take anything away from what you've accomplished, it may not even apply to you. Just a possibility.
     
  12. slag

    slag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2005
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well take this with a grain of salt -- I'm still a major beginner. What I do is 15 min cardio 75 ab crunches then another 15 minutes cardio.

    I start to die around 15 minutes so i can cool off for a sec and then hit the ab bench....it seems to work out pretty well.


    Rob
     
  13. 1FastGTX

    1FastGTX Elite Member
    Lifetime Platinum Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2004
    Messages:
    9,201
    Likes Received:
    2
    RTESTES: as someone who knows HIT very well I was hoping you could elaborate on the rest time further. You say 48 hours is sufficient for recovery, yet does Darden and Jones not push advanced trainees to rest even longer than this? I thought that the advanced trainee under a HIT approach was to reduce workouts to 2x per week (as opposed to the 3x per week, full body routine for the less-advanced)?

    Please don't think I'm questioning you, I'm just trying to understand. Perhaps I misread something in one of Darden's books.

    I was under the impression that most of the high intensity experts (and I am going so far as to even include Mike Mentzer and AST/MAXOT) say that the better one gets at overloading the muscle and performing higher and higher intensity, the more rest time he should allow for. While original HIT designers (Darden, Jones) differ extremely from Mentzer and even AST, I still thought that they all agreed on a general rule of "more advanced trainees should rest longer than less advanced trainees."
     
  14. RTE

    RTE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    4
    Very true, cut down on workouts to two a week as you become advanced. What is "advanced"? One year? 5 years? Or just leave it to the person to decide? For my part, leave it to the person. I have always thought of mentzer as a different breed of HIT. Max-OT is too high volume for HIT qualification IMO.

    If you note on page 132 of new HIT, Darden even carries you to 5 times in two weeks after a year. Someone that does it that soon has more intensity then this old man can manage. A young firebrand might do it. I picture it taking me a good three years to get down to 2 sets a week.

    HIT has first brought you to a 1-2 set max for body part per workout and no more than 12-16 exercises. You are having to recover from a short but intense time under load. For the chest, I do 2 sets of 8-12 reps, a total of 16-24 reps. I have no fear of training in the same way 48 hours later. The body needs those 48 hours not just a muscle.

    If I find I have not improved in the last month of training, I might take 7-10 days off for rest.
     
  15. 1FastGTX

    1FastGTX Elite Member
    Lifetime Platinum Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2004
    Messages:
    9,201
    Likes Received:
    2
    I suppose "leave it to the person" is the most logical answer to your first question.

    Mentzer is a much different breed, but still similar to many degrees. MAXOT is definitely too high volume for "HIT" qualification but not for a general label of a high intensity routine. It's low in volume compared to a lot of routines, and if you look at some of their major sponsored trainees (Jeff Willet comes to mind), some of their routines are lower in volume to what their documentation recommends. My routine is much lower in volume than MAXOT, but higher than HIT. And I think I found a pretty good groove as of right now anyway.

    Thank you for the reply and for looking up that page for me Rtestes. I'll check into that again, very interesting. I believe that it does bring us to the conclusion though that most HIT guys say "the more advanced you get (or the more intense you get?), the longer your layoff should be."

     
  16. Rakanat

    Rakanat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just out of curiosity, what is your routine?
     
  17. 1FastGTX

    1FastGTX Elite Member
    Lifetime Platinum Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2004
    Messages:
    9,201
    Likes Received:
    2
    It's the Chris Routine. :)

    Actually from what I remember it resembles John's routine, in a 5-day split though (I think he's on a 3-day?). It has no name, it's the result of my own experimentation and reading. It's similar to MAXOT, with less volume though.
     

Share This Page