What should I expect with the Military Press?

[HevyMetal]

Niku:---

actually you don't need to spend ages changing weights in the gym on the barbells.

If you want to get stronger with BB's you wouldn't be doing 14 exercises every session.

You could do it with 3 or 4:- Deadlift or Squats, Bench, Standing Mil Press or Push press.

If you like doing static exes like Charles Atlas did.....IMO a better choice would be to Google Pete Sisco.....his static holds are in the max strength range whereas Charles Atlas's were not.
Charles was a look-good bodybuilder not a strength specialist.

You'd get a lot stronger from doing Sisco's partial bench exercise than you will pressing your hands together in front of you.

I too hate changing barbell plates......it's just one of those pains-in-the-ass you have to live with to get the job done.

I think I know where you "are coming from" in regards to a training protocol..

At 73, you have figured that long drawn out sessions of"bodybuilder" sets are just not your cup-of-tea.

Looking at a few of your posts it looks like you are into "pyramid" sets each and every for a total of around 8 reps. (I assume ONE set).

Have you ever tried HIT routines?

Do you cycle your training?

If you are seated on a machine for every ex you do.....you will get very limited results.

Most stack weight machines simply do not have enough weight on them to challenge you beyond a very limited point.

At the swimming pool gym I used to go to years ago I could max out the leg press machine there.....and at first I wasn't even into weight training. It was easy.
The plates showed 750lbs of resistance. Everybody that walked in there could max it out....trained or not. In reality it was far less than advertised.

If you INSIST on using that machine...then I would suggest getting creative with the dumbells at the same time.

Even though the dumbells only weigh 50lbs., I would follow up whatever ex you did on the machine with an ex on the dumbells that works the stabilizers.

example.......chest press on the machine/dumbell flyes/ dumbell press.........leg press on the machine/dumbell squats/lunges............Mil press on the machine/ Delt raises with the dumbells (Anterior/Medial/Posterior).

Do walking lunges with a barbell plate. Surely you have 35lb.plates there.....maybe you have 50's..............or do static lunges with a 50lb. dumbell in each hand.

On the machine your back gets basically ZERO stimulation.

(And don't say "Well..I do Lat pulldowns").

On the Sisco static benchpress hold, your arms only come down about 3 inches from lock-out with your hands a little wider than your shoulders. This is your strongest spot in range-of-motion for a bench. You direct absolutely MAX force for about 8 seconds.

Trouble is.....while this is the strongest position for bench it is not the best position for PECS.
So if you want to see some chest muscle you are going to have to do standard pushups followed by dumbell flyes after that ex.

For chest IMO do not waste your time with Hindu pushups or Divebombers. IMO these break the tension chain on the core and Transverse Abdominus also Pec muscles.

The good old standard pushup is the best bang for the buck in my opinion, because tension is constant at all times.

Again, at your age you are probably not thinking too much about actual bodybuilding per s e...right?.....you just want to be strong as you can and look fairly decent.

Even if you only have 50lb. dumbells.......and... if there is nothing wrong with your knees and legs...
I would do dumbell squats with a dumbell in each hand and build up the weight/reps/sets as you go even though you are never going higher than 100lbs. total with the DB's.

Do you a have chin bar at the gym? Build up to where you can do them with a weighted vest, or wear practically anything that increases the weight.

You do have a valid point.....absolute maximum intensity for short duration can yield results...but you need to know your "recovery" ability inside out....and you need to know how to cycle it.

You also need to know what leverage positions produce "maximum" intensity.

If you put your hands in front of your chest and press them together as you suggested...you aren't going to get much intensity for that ex because it is basically a weak leverage position.

[Zilla]

Niku- I don't know what kind of equipment your gym has handy, but this is all I use in my home gym.



When I need heavier ones, I buy them. No plates , no fuss. I'm given more of a hard time when I have to buy heavier ones at the store then people getting on me for lack of barbell use.

If your gym has the type of DB I've posted a picture of, give them a try. Full range of motion is a beautiful thing.

Good luck in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish.

[Niku]

Originally Posted by Zilla

Niku- I don't know what kind of equipment your gym has handy, but this is all I use in my home gym.



When I need heavier ones, I buy them. No plates , no fuss. I'm given more of a hard time when I have to buy heavier ones at the store then people getting on me for lack of barbell use.

If your gym has the type of DB I've posted a picture of, give them a try. Full range of motion is a beautiful thing.

Good luck in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish.

==================================
I agree that they are great, except for expense and space requirements. However, you are right about convenience. I regret not taking advantage of the great selection at the last gym I went to. They went up to 125 lbs, but I only used them for shrugs. Showoff that I am, I really liked it when an old geezer gym-rat said that he had never seen anyone do that: shrug with 125 pounds. I had worked up to that--almost. My grip hadn't had the time to sufficiently develop before I moved to San Diego, so sometimes I could do it with my left hand and sometimes not. But I was the only one. That was the great part. One other thing about dumbbell collections, they seem so wasteful. I mean, after you have passed a certain poundage, those dumbbells are of no value. Seems wasteful to me. Finally, why only those dumbbells? When I was looking into the possibility of buying a dumbbell collection (I ended-up with two-quick change 'bells), I looked at many, many kinds, including yours, but there were many others that I would have like to have owned. Remember, you are collecting weights to pick up, not building an art collection. Still, I have wondered if you can buy adjustable--the quick change ones-- dumbbells that start at, say, 50 pounds and go higher. Something to think about, but not as long as I'm going to the gym.

[Zilla]

Originally Posted by Niku

==================================
I agree that they are great, except for expense and space requirements. However, you are right about convenience. I regret not taking advantage of the great selection at the last gym I went to. They went up to 125 lbs, but I only used them for shrugs. Showoff that I am, I really liked it when an old geezer gym-rat said that he had never seen anyone do that: shrug with 125 pounds. I had worked up to that--almost. My grip hadn't had the time to sufficiently develop before I moved to San Diego, so sometimes I could do it with my left hand and sometimes not. But I was the only one. That was the great part. One other thing about dumbbell collections, they seem so wasteful. I mean, after you have passed a certain poundage, those dumbbells are of no value. Seems wasteful to me. Finally, why only those dumbbells? When I was looking into the possibility of buying a dumbbell collection (I ended-up with two-quick change 'bells), I looked at many, many kinds, including yours, but there were many others that I would have like to have owned. Remember, you are collecting weights to pick up, not building an art collection. Still, I have wondered if you can buy adjustable--the quick change ones-- dumbbells that start at, say, 50 pounds and go higher. Something to think about, but not as long as I'm going to the gym.

My goals are do not include trying to outlift somebody else. It is not my thing, nor has it ever been. I lift to be lean, burn fat and when I get a wild hair across my butt ( i.e- a large landscaping project around the yard) I have the ability to get it done without hurting myself or have to depend on other people because I have the strength to move heavy plants and such. My goals are active fitness oriented, not "Dig Me!" If that works for people, all the more power to them.

Workouts can be changed on the fly. Reps, sets, tempo, pyraminds, reverse pyramids, grips, ect. The only limitations on these things are the limits people put in their own heads.

The other advantage to using DB's in my case anyway is my left side is weaker than my right. It has gotten much better with time, but if I used a barbell all the time, it's likely that I wouldn't have progressed like I have in terms of strength on my left side as a barbell allows me to cheat or push harder with my right furthering the imbalance. Can I cheat with a DB? Certainly but if I do, I'm simply cheating myself.

I wasn't suggesting or telling you to purchase anything. The point of my post was since you complained about changing plates ( used changing plates as a excuse) having access to other types of DB's removes the excuse.

I have the room for my DB collection so that is what I buy and enjoy using. Ive looked into the adjustable sets and none of them I've seen thus so far have impressed me. As long as I'm using what I have and enjoy using them, it's a non-issue.

As I said previously, good luck with whatever it is you're trying to or accomplish.

[Niku]

Originally Posted by Zilla

My goals are do not include trying to outlift somebody else. It is not my thing, nor has it ever been. I lift to be lean, burn fat and when I get a wild hair across my butt ( i.e- a large landscaping project around the yard) I have the ability to get it done without hurting myself or have to depend on other people because I have the strength to move heavy plants and such. My goals are active fitness oriented, not "Dig Me!" If that works for people, all the more power to them.

Workouts can be changed on the fly. Reps, sets, tempo, pyraminds, reverse pyramids, grips, ect. The only limitations on these things are the limits people put in their own heads.

The other advantage to using DB's in my case anyway is my left side is weaker than my right. It has gotten much better with time, but if I used a barbell all the time, it's likely that I wouldn't have progressed like I have in terms of strength on my left side as a barbell allows me to cheat or push harder with my right furthering the imbalance. Can I cheat with a DB? Certainly but if I do, I'm simply cheating myself.

I wasn't suggesting or telling you to purchase anything. The point of my post was since you complained about changing plates ( used changing plates as a excuse) having access to other types of DB's removes the excuse.

I have the room for my DB collection so that is what I buy and enjoy using. Ive looked into the adjustable sets and none of them I've seen thus so far have impressed me. As long as I'm using what I have and enjoy using them, it's a non-issue.

As I said previously, good luck with whatever it is you're trying to or accomplish.

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It's a pleasure, and a change, to see intelligent, and temperate remarks in response to my comments. I can find no fault in what you say, no, make that, I agree with them. I especially like your second paragraph, which adds to the list I have been mentally assembling. A few days ago, I saw an article about a recent study on Aspirin. It seems yet another study has been made on its efficacy. This time they found that it's of no value. Well, they were more specific than that, but that's a rough summary. Anyway, my reaction was, "There they go again". I don't know about you, but I am so sick of how the "known" and "settled" truths keep changing, and changing back, before our eyes. Whether it's eggs, or butter, vitamins, or alcohol, or coffee, or...well, you get the point. And that's in fields with scientific credentials. What, then, can we expect of the advice given by exercise "experts"? How much faith can we place in advice or theories that have so little in the way of scientific research to back them up? Well, we can, and we must, trust them as far as our judgement and experience justify. I'd love to have certainty, but since it's not available, I'll have to struggle along as best I can, and I'm still testing and checking. As an example, I started by being a fan of Joe Sisco's, but I'm sure he wouldn't approve of what I'm doing now. I'm also sure that he would deny making statements which I have attributed to him. This getting too long, so I'll close for now. I won't be back until this evening. Oh, I have to add the results of an other recent "scientific" study. Very recently, another study said that deadlifts should be avoided because they have proven to be very bad for backs. They also mentioned other exercises (I think the squat, but I'm not sure, so I'm not claiming that). Anyway, here are what are perhaps the two essential exercises, and now some "experts" are saying they are bad for you. See what I mean? Decisions. Decisions. I'm choosing to ignore this latest study. How about you? Oh, I don't do "situps," but not because of stories that they can cause back problems but because I think the exercises I do are better.

[HevyMetal]

Niku:-


That's Pete Sisco not Joe Sisco.

Before anyone undertakes an exercise regime...they have to know what they are shooting for.....because specific regimens work for specific purposes..

Not exactly sure what you are shooting for ...other than whatever it is you don't want to have to change plates.

"Full-range -of-motion" is a specific regimen usually applied to bodybuilding techniques/exes. A muscle is not as strong at it's extended range as it is at closer leverage-advantage positon.

Take the Bicep Curl.....any weight you can lift from the fully extended position will not be as much as you can lift/hold from the almost fully retracted position.

There is nothing wrong with Squats...done properly.
There is nothing wrong with Deadlifts....done properly.

The BIG PROBLEM is:------many lifters will read an article in a mag or online where another lifter is doing squats with ,say, 400lbs.
The reader can only do them with 100lbs.
So immediately he cranks up the weight so he can "fit in" with the big boys, but using atrocious form and the wrong rep set.
Then...they will do this for weeks and months on end, always trying to increase the weight every session.
A little while later.....bango!...they are out with an injury.
The injury wasn't caused by the Squat or Deadlift....it was caused by their own ego.

BTW....yes, they do make quicklock interchangeable dumbells that go to 90lbs. and higher.

If you are into oldtime strongman training you will know that it is not what you do so much as how you do it.

Take the Turkish Get-up for example.....50lb dumbell isn't too much but try getting up off the floor with one in your hand.

You sound like you have some "over-the-years" acquired knowledge.
Therefore you would know that it is how you put exercises,weight,time,sets together that determines the outcome....
You can achieve very good results by knowing what to do,when to do it, and in what order things are done.

Yes...there are conflicting truths and testimonials. For every study there is a study that refutes it.

However it is a fact that...while one is often stronger on a "closed chain" ex, you sacrifice development of surrounding stabilizer muscles.
The term "stabilizer muscles " is really not a good term, because it makes one think that they are some mysterious muscle that is only there to support other muscles when in fact they are there to perform a task just like every other muscle during an "open chain" movement of any kind, of which you will encounter more of in real life than in a gym generally.

One could say that every single muscle in our bodies is a "stabilizer" of some sort.

Usually when somebody wants to adhere to a particular belief, the first thing they do is attempt to justify it with whatever information they can get that they think will convince others.

You admit that you are "lazy" in a certain regard.

And there are ways to train a "lazy" guy......because "lazy" guys want to train the least and get the biggest bang for their buck.

Some machines are better than others........top-model high-resistance Bowflex comes to mind. But the one you are training on does not, inlight of your posts, offer the same exes or resistance.

Would help if you posted a pic of this particular model rig you train on.......

[Niku]

Originally Posted by HevyMetal

Niku:-


That's Pete Sisco not Joe Sisco.

Before anyone undertakes an exercise regime...they have to know what they are shooting for.....because specific regimens work for specific purposes..

Not exactly sure what you are shooting for ...other than whatever it is you don't want to have to change plates.
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Strength, but not only that. Exercise has so many benefits. It's a win-win game. One, seldom mentioned, is posture. Trivial, some might say, but not in my eyes. All I know is that when I was going to school at Santa Rosa Jr. College and I unexpectedly noticed that my posture had become respectable in a matter of months, I was delighted. Considering my age, it will never be what it would have been if I had worked at it decades before, but it is noticeably better than it had been in my memory. A big plus in my opinion. Then there's weight control, as well as all the other things we have to be aware of, such as blood pressure control, blood sugar balance, bone strengthening, etc. These things are especially important to the aging population. Still, I have to admit that I started weightlifting to become stronger, no, not just stronger but STRONG.
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"Full-range -of-motion" is a specific regimen usually applied to bodybuilding techniques/exes. A muscle is not as strong at it's extended range as it is at closer leverage-advantage positon.

Take the Bicep Curl.....any weight you can lift from the fully extended position will not be as much as you can lift/hold from the almost fully retracted position.
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No question about that; however, I do believe that Pete Sisco's system is much safer. I do believe that "full-range-of-motion" is much more likely to result in injury. Nevertheless, I do use it. I have no choice. The only way I could use Pete's system at my gym would be with Power Racks, or Smith Machines, and the ones at my gym require plate changing. There are cable machines with weight stacks, but either the weights provided are not enough, or the machines are not comfortable to use. At my old gym, there were cable machines that I really liked (I could even do military presses starting from the floor), but I was beginning to outgrow them. I might add that I feel that many of Pete's followers are delusional. From reading their testimonials--some of them--it is obvious they feel that they have pressed 300 pounds when they have actually only pushed it for a few inches. That's baloney. Only a "full-range-of motion" lift can be considered the real thing. That's not to say that a partial lift is of no value, but it's merely a plea for realism and honesty.
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There is nothing wrong with Squats...done properly.
There is nothing wrong with Deadlifts....done properly.

The BIG PROBLEM is:------many lifters will read an article in a mag or online where another lifter is doing squats with ,say, 400lbs.
The reader can only do them with 100lbs.
So immediately he cranks up the weight so he can "fit in" with the big boys, but using atrocious form and the wrong rep set.

Then...they will do this for weeks and months on end, always trying to increase the weight every session.
A little while later.....bango!...they are out with an injury.
The injury wasn't caused by the Squat or Deadlift....it was caused by their own ego.

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I almost didn't mention that study that said that deadlifts and squats were bad for the back because I knew the answer I would receive, and I don't like to provoke the inevitable. Even so, it seemed to be a study made by respectable authorities, so I was going to enclose a link to it, but finding it now would probably be beyond my ability, or patience, at any rate. In any event, I choose to ignore it, as I ignore many other such warnings. Otherwise, I don't believe there would be a way to "run-the gauntlet" of the many health warnings that are out there.
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BTW....yes, they do make quicklock interchangeable dumbells that go to 90lbs. and higher.

If you are into oldtime strongman training you will know that it is not what you do so much as how you do it.

Take the Turkish Get-up for example.....50lb dumbell isn't too much but try getting up off the floor with one in your hand.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I've been intrigued by that challenge, but this time I actually tried to do it. I couldn't, but I'm going to try again--manana. It does seem like an easy way to cause an injury, though.
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You sound like you have some "over-the-years" acquired knowledge.
Therefore you would know that it is how you put exercises,weight,time,sets together that determines the outcome....
You can achieve very good results by knowing what to do,when to do it, and in what order things are done.

Yes...there are conflicting truths and testimonials. For every study there is a study that refutes it.

However it is a fact that...while one is often stronger on a "closed chain" ex, you sacrifice development of surrounding stabilizer muscles.
The term "stabilizer muscles " is really not a good term, because it makes one think that they are some mysterious muscle that is only there to support other muscles when in fact they are there to perform a task just like every other muscle during an "open chain" movement of any kind, of which you will encounter more of in real life than in a gym generally.

One could say that every single muscle in our bodies is a "stabilizer" of some sort.

Usually when somebody wants to adhere to a particular belief, the first thing they do is attempt to justify it with whatever information they can get that they think will convince others.

You admit that you are "lazy" in a certain regard.

And there are ways to train a "lazy" guy......because "lazy" guys want to train the least and get the biggest bang for their buck.

Some machines are better than others........top-model high-resistance Bowflex comes to mind. But the one you are training on does not, inlight of your posts, offer the same exes or resistance.

Would help if you posted a pic of this particular model rig you train on.......

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is really not the proper place, but it is the end, so I'll say something now that I should have said before: I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE. Not too many people go around saying that changing plates is too much trouble, but consider how they BEHAVE. How many gyms would be in existence today if it were not for the introduction of weight-stack machines? I could expand upon this, but it would only be unnecessary rhetoric. The fact is, for reasons of convenience, comfort, safety, time-saving, etc, most (I think that's the correct word) people choose to exercise with machines rather than free weights. One more thing: I'm sorry for the delay. When someone takes the trouble to respond to something you have said, common courtesy demands a prompt and polite reply. In this I have failed, so I again apologize. It's just that sometimes some things become more important than exercise. It's also lack of self-discipline and organization. I'm going to have to get a life plan to accompany my exercise plan.

[Niku]

Originally Posted by HevyMetal

Niku:---

actually you don't need to spend ages changing weights in the gym on the barbells.

If you want to get stronger with BB's you wouldn't be doing 14 exercises every session.

You could do it with 3 or 4:- Deadlift or Squats, Bench, Standing Mil Press or Push press.
_____________________________________________
I'm familiar with that approach, but it just doesn't satisfy--me. I want to do more. I enjoy some other exercises for various reasons. Some because I feel that they are helping me, some because I can max them out, others just because they're there and are convenient. However, I am thinking of changing my routine. I'd like to feel some ache for at least a day after my workout. That's now missing, so I have to wonder if I'm actually accomplishing anything. Repetition seems the way to cause "burn" and "ache". So, instead of one repetition at maximum, I might try to do five repetitions with as heavy a weight as I can. Incidentally, one repetition at maximum doesn't actually work out to only one lift. I have to warm up, and I have to find the maximum by experimentation. As an example, here's what I did with the MACHINE biceps curl the last time I was at the gym; 70, 70, 110, 130, 150, 170 (Failure), 160 for ten seconds. I might add that Pete Sisco says that 5-seconds is the optimal time for holding the lift. He feels that you can do more but that it doesn't add to the strength-building. In other words, 5-seconds for each exercise once a week. That doesn't seem right, so my minimum time is usually 10-seconds. Laugh if you want, but that worked for me for a long time. Oh, one more thing Pete says. He says that you should improve each time you exercise and that if you don't, it means that you didn't rest enough between exercises, that you didn't give your muscles time to recover and rebuild.
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If you like doing static exes like Charles Atlas did.....IMO a better choice would be to Google Pete Sisco.....his static holds are in the max strength range whereas Charles Atlas's were not.
Charles was a look-good bodybuilder not a strength specialist.
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I never bought Charlie's course, but I had assumed that he had called for maximum efforts. That's what I do when I use "Dynamic Tension" (Isometrics). Incidentally, Charlies's course is still being sold. I would have bought it out of curiosity and nostalgia, but it was around $40, and I'm not that nostalgic.
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You'd get a lot stronger from doing Sisco's partial bench exercise than you will pressing your hands together in front of you.
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Not if I use maximum effort, and that's what I do. I might add that I am pressing the door frame now, and I use maximum effort when I do it. I've been trying to to it for 20-seconds for three sets, but MAXIMUM is really hard to do for 20-seconds. I'm going to switch to 6X10 seconds. We'll know in few more weeks if I've been wasting my time. I should add that I'm talking about the top of the door frame.
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I too hate changing barbell plates......it's just one of those pains-in-the-ass you have to live with to get the job done.

I think I know where you "are coming from" in regards to a training protocol..

At 73, you have figured that long drawn out sessions of"bodybuilder" sets are just not your cup-of-tea.
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You're certainly right there. However, in the interest of civility and courtesy, I'll spare the readers my opinion of bodybuilding and bodybuilders. I'll just add that my generation thought of them in a different--VERY DIFFERENT--way than people of today do.
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Looking at a few of your posts it looks like you are into "pyramid" sets each and every for a total of around 8 reps. (I assume ONE set).
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No, I'm not.
----------------------------------

Have you ever tried HIT routines?
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I had to look up HiT. Now that I have, I guess you could say so. Although I have strayed from my original plans, my exercise program now is basically to do one-repetition of each exercise, for the maximum effort, for at least 10-seconds, and to do that no more than once a week for each exercise. However, as shown above, it's actually more complicated than that. I might add that I am missing muscle soreness, so I'll probably increase repetitions, although that might mean going to the gym more than once a week. Once a week for each exercise, but twice a week, or more, to cover all exercises
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Do you cycle your training?
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I'm not sure what that means, but I have been thinking of using different exercises to accomplish the same goals. I don't know if there's anything to the "muscle confusion" concept, but I'll give it a try. However, how many ways can you do the military press, for example? I suppose you could do it s-l-o-w-l-y. You could do negative lifts. You could use elastic bands. Then, there's all of the games people have conjured up for variations in repetitions (I have no faith or interest in them). Pyramiding, I believe they call it. Well, I have a Soloflex, which has an action something like elastic bands, so I can make some changes.
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If you are seated on a machine for every ex you do.....you will get very limited results.
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Well, that's definitely a matter of opinion. The fact is, people have gotten very good results with machines.
---------------------------------------------

Most stack weight machines simply do not have enough weight on them to challenge you beyond a very limited point.
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Some I've already max'd out (All leg machines except leg curl, torso twist machine, ). Some I'll max-out in the very near future (fly machine, row machine) , and some leave room for dreams, the bench press and military press machines, for example. All in all, I can't say they're too easy for me to make it interesting. More accurate to say--at this point-that I'm too weak.
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At the swimming pool gym I used to go to years ago I could max out the leg press machine there.....and at first I wasn't even into weight training. It was easy.
The plates showed 750lbs of resistance. Everybody that walked in there could max it out....trained or not. In reality it was far less than advertised.
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No argument there. You just can't believe what stack machines say. I've already mentioned what I've learned about press machines and curl machines, and I have to believe the same situation applies to most of machines. I do have to wonder why, though. As Yul Brunner said in "Anna and the King of Siam said, "It's a puzzlement".
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If you INSIST on using that machine...then I would suggest getting creative with the dumbells at the same time.

Even though the dumbells only weigh 50lbs., I would follow up whatever ex you did on the machine with an ex on the dumbells that works the stabilizers.

example.......chest press on the machine/dumbell flyes/ dumbell press.........leg press on the machine/dumbell squats/lunges............Mil press on the machine/ Delt raises with the dumbells (Anterior/Medial/Posterior).

Do walking lunges with a barbell plate. Surely you have 35lb.plates there.....maybe you have 50's..............or do static lunges with a 50lb. dumbell in each hand.

On the machine your back gets basically ZERO stimulation.
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You remind me that there's one exercise I haven't been doing. More importantly, I have the machine at home to do it, and I will start on Monday, my next exercise day. That machine is called, I believe, back extender. I used to use it at my old gym, even though I had to walk quite a distance to get plates to make it challenging. At home, the plates can be kept right next to the machine, so it can become one of my signature exercises. Oh, there's one more thing. You already know it, but Ill give one example. I remember getting muscle soreness in my abdominal muscles from--wait for it--the pulldown. Yes, I got sorer stomach muscles from that exercise than from anything else. It didn't always happen, but was exercising my stomach muscles by doing the pulldown. The point is, exercises can work out many muscles, even the back.
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(And don't say "Well..I do Lat pulldowns").

On the Sisco static benchpress hold, your arms only come down about 3 inches from lock-out with your hands a little wider than your shoulders. This is your strongest spot in range-of-motion for a bench. You direct absolutely MAX force for about 8 seconds.

Trouble is.....while this is the strongest position for bench it is not the best position for PECS.
So if you want to see some chest muscle you are going to have to do standard pushups followed by dumbell flyes after that ex.
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I don't know the answer to that. Certainly Pete Sisco would disagree; in fact, his whole philosophy is in disagreement. He feels that you can get a complete workout with only partial movement. Actually, it's academic, since I don't have a way to follow his method. With few exceptions, I have to use the "full-range-of-motion" method. I'm not complaining, but I would like to give Pete's methods a fair trial. PECS? That's the last thing I'm interested in, except to the extent that stronger pecs improve my performance. Personally, I...enough said.
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For chest IMO do not waste your time with Hindu pushups or Divebombers. IMO these break the tension chain on the core and Transverse Abdominus also Pec muscles.

The good old standard pushup is the best bang for the buck in my opinion, because tension is constant at all times.

Again, at your age you are probably not thinking too much about actual bodybuilding per s e...right?.....you just want to be strong as you can and look fairly decent.
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You're certainly right about my opinion of bodybuilding, now, and as far back as I can remember. Enough about that. My goal is strength, not the body beautiful. However, I do want to look healthy and vigorous. I do want to have good posture, and a flat stomach is not something to be despised, either. However, the word, "grotesque" comes to my mind a lot easier and sooner than with many people of later generations than mine.
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Even if you only have 50lb. dumbells.......and... if there is nothing wrong with your knees and legs...
I would do dumbell squats with a dumbell in each hand and build up the weight/reps/sets as you go even though you are never going higher than 100lbs. total with the DB's.

Do you a have chin bar at the gym? Build up to where you can do them with a weighted vest, or wear practically anything that increases the weight.
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Yes, there are many bars at the gym that can be used for chinning, but I workout with the pulldown machine. I know many people say that chinning is more effective than pulling down, but I've never agreed with them, and I have challenged people on pro-chinning sites to explain the difference, but no one could. In fact, most people finally agreed with me.
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You do have a valid point.....absolute maximum intensity for short duration can yield results...but you need to know your "recovery" ability inside out....and you need to know how to cycle it.
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That is a very important point, and I don't know the answer. In fact, I don't know of anyone who knows how to determine that. If there is such a one, please let me know. Also, I'd like to know the quantitative effects of aging as far as weightlifting goes. Simple questions, but everyone is different, and I don 't believe that there are any reliable answers to these questions to be found. Recovery requirements and age limitations. These are my two biggest questions. Oh, one more: muscle recovery requirements for different muscles. They are different, but I'd like to see some serious scientific studies on these subjects.
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You also need to know what leverage positions produce "maximum" intensity.

If you put your hands in front of your chest and press them together as you suggested...you aren't going to get much intensity for that ex because it is basically a weak leverage position.

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I have to disagree with that. The way I see it, it's the strongest leverage position. Think of the alternatives. One would be to extend your arms straight out in front and then to press your palms together. Obviously not very good leverage. Another way would be the method you use with fly machines, Now, you can start the exercise with your arms far back, in which case you have the least leverage, or you can start with your arms further forward. Weak leverage, also. However, if you wanted to crush something with your bare hands, you'd want the position with the best leverage, so you would use the palm-to-palm near-to-chest position.
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Finally, I regret being so late in replying to your posting. You deserved better.

[HevyMetal]

The reason "actual" chins or "pulldowns" are more effective than the machine Lat Pulldown is this:-

When you do a real chin/pulldown on a bar and it is done properly, involving pre-tension on the whole body with the 'irradiation" technique you will end up a lot stronger on this move than you would doing it on a machine, which in turn will give you the opportunity to do weighted bar chins/pulldowns which in turn will produce better results and make you bigger and stronger than on a machine chin/Lat pulldown.

For a guy that is so critical of bodybuilders, you sure defend the use of machines a lot....which is what a bodybuilder would use, but a strongman-type lifter would not.

Machines and total-integrated body strength are 95% at polar opposites.

Instead of doing a bunch of no-result machine exes....cancel them and use the same time to throw plates on a barbell and do Deadlifts.....much bigger bang for your buck in the same amount of time.

If you REALLY want to get strong.......stay off the machines......

(By the way, the strongest palm-to-palm position is not in front of your chest..it is slightly below the rib cage near the stomach...that way you bring in the force of the Lats as well.)

Get yourself a copy of Pavel Tsatsouline's "Power To the People" and proceed from there for strength.

[Robert2006]

Originally Posted by Niku

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safety, time-saving, etc, most (I think that's the correct word) people choose to exercise with machines rather than free weights.

I'd be careful of the view that machines are safer. You might avoid dropping the bar on your head but machines aren't custom made to fit each gym user.

[HevyMetal]

For awhile I bought into the "machines are o.k. and safer" theory.

I have a couple of machines in my basement gym (along with a boatload of free-weight equipment).

These days the only thing I use on the machines are the low-pulleys and high pulleys... for one-arm pulley exes and such.

I will occasionally use the lat-pulldown feature....but never done seated.

I have a Smith machine......I only use that for what I just decribed plus the fact that you can quickly make a mid-range pulley (on mine) by affixing a pulley to the weight bar and then running a cable to the back low pulley.

If I wasn't using them for that.....I would get rid of them.

I used to bench and squat with the Smith.....until I became more educated.

Regardless of whether others get results off a machine "cosmetically",
it is a proven fact that for total strength a fixed-plane semi-isolated movement on a machine will not do it, due to several reasons involving neural response and motor-nerve response/signal.

There are some pricey hellishly good machines out there..but these usually incorporate a 'built-in choice'......you can do the ex in fixed plane or you can remove the bar and go "free'.

A machine generally trains you in one fixed plane with no "stabilizer" input. This is actually more dangerous than using free weights because the tendency to develop microfractures is much greater than with free weights. If you can bench,say,130lbs on a fixed plane machine, when it comes in real life a time where you have to move that weight in any other plane than the one on the machine your supporting muscles will not be ready for it. Equals........injury.

Many machine manufacturers have spent an incredible amount of time to try and duplicate the movement of a free weight into their machines
or try to modify the resistance curve to get greater results. None of them have had very much success really.
The reason they do this is because they know, and you know, that free weights are better than a machine but......they want you to buy their machine and sales,marketing and gym-memberships is what it's all about for them.

I strongly doubt that you would have ever seen Eugen Sandow, Paul Anderson or Louis Cyr in one of today's "designer" gyms doing seated Mil Presses or any other machine exercise.

I can hear Bob Peoples laughing his butt off as well.

Training disconnectedly with iso's and movements on a fixed-plane machine is like trying to construct a rope out of bits and pieces of different diameters and materials and expecting the whole thing to be as strong as the biggest chunk of rope you have in it......sorry......won't happen.

(By the way....5 seconds or 8 seconds for a Sisco partial?.....moot point.....I like going 8 to 10 for max input if I happen to be doing one of these). It has been proven that even the best strength lifters never actually come close to using 100% of muscle capablity.....more like about 60% to 80% tops , even with perceived all out MAX input. So I'm not fretting over a 3 to 5 second difference.

The Turkish Get-up is an excellent exercise for reasons beyond the actual amount of weight one uses. It is completely safe when performed correctly.....unless you start out with a weight you cannot handle.

If you want "Hollywood" muscle.....go the machine-only gym.
If you want real strength along with muscle gain.....train with free weights.

(Incidentally........this neurally-connected-type training is why many gymnasts can easily bench their bodyweight although never having trained on a benchpress rig......while thousands of guys that bench (even high-weight benchers) cannot do a single gymnast move).

And lastly......Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy is not the same as Myofibrillar Hypertrophy.....

[Niku]

Originally Posted by HevyMetal

The reason "actual" chins or "pulldowns" are more effective than the machine Lat Pulldown is this:-

When you do a real chin/pulldown on a bar and it is done properly, involving pre-tension on the whole body with the 'irradiation" technique you will end up a lot stronger on this move than you would doing it on a machine, which in turn will give you the opportunity to do weighted bar chins/pulldowns which in turn will produce better results and make you bigger and stronger than on a machine chin/Lat pulldown.

For a guy that is so critical of bodybuilders, you sure defend the use of machines a lot....which is what a bodybuilder would use, but a strongman-type lifter would not.

Machines and total-integrated body strength are 95% at polar opposites.

Instead of doing a bunch of no-result machine exes....cancel them and use the same time to throw plates on a barbell and do Deadlifts.....much bigger bang for your buck in the same amount of time.

If you REALLY want to get strong.......stay off the machines......

(By the way, the strongest palm-to-palm position is not in front of your chest..it is slightly below the rib cage near the stomach...that way you bring in the force of the Lats as well.)

Get yourself a copy of Pavel Tsatsouline's "Power To the People" and proceed from there for strength.

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Well, I never really believed that ALL of the men of my generation had my same opinion about bodybuilding and bodybuilders, and you prove that.

[Zilla]

Oh okay, I found Robert's comment humorous. However, one cannot deny his point and I appauld him for how it was made. Short, sweet with just enough bite to send the message home.

[Niku]

I finally got around to stating my main concerns. However, they might have gotten lost in all the verbiage, and they are of crucial importance to me, so I'll restate them here. Does anyone know of any studies by reputable institutions on the following subjects?

(1) Effect of athleticism at early age: Malnutrition or obesity at an early age is generally thought to have a bearing on the health of the adult. Might it be that athleticism, or lack thereof, at early ages can have a similar effect with respect to the athletic ability of the adult? In other words, are we limited by what we did as children?

(2) Recovery periods: Opinions vary greatly, from two days to as much as a month. Some even claim to exercise as much as four hours a day for five days a week, and these claims come from those who make money from the results. Others say that only those who take steroids can benefit from such intensive workout programs. My question is, are there any believable studies from reputable institutions that touch upon this subject?

(2-B) Recovery periods for different muscles: Different Muscles do differ in their recovery periods just as they do in other respects. Are there reliable studies on this subject?

(3) Effects of Aging: What do reliable studies from respected institutions have to say about the quantitative limitations imposed on weightlifting ability?

Sometimes you have to wonder, "Who can you believe? What can you believe?" When you get some spam from a doctor(?) who states, among other things, that water is bad for you and that he hasn't touched the stuff for ten years, you probably don't rush to your mailbox with a check for his book. But you can find the same kind of stuff, and more, in the exercise field. If you ask Google about "bad effects of squats and deadlifts," you'll be presented with thousands of sites on the subject. What to believe? Who to believe? I wish I knew. You just have to fumble and stumble your way through the minefield as best you can. It also helps to keep a sense of humour. Lately, I've been collecting links to sites containing what I believe to be outrageous. Here's one for you but, who knows, perhaps tomorrow it will be the "conventional wisdom".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...t-disease.html

[HevyMetal]

In response:-

No.....I am not against bodybuilding...if bodybuilding is the goal.

I still do not understand your point.......you eschew bodybuilders and the sport of bodybuilding yet you insist that all your needs can be met by machine -training only....which technically puts you in the domain of a bodybuilder et al. Your refusal to train with anything that requires adding free-weight plates puts you in a limited field of results.

If you are a machine-only user you are a bodybuilder.

Answers to your questions:-

(1) Some people are born with athletically better genes than others.
It's never too late to be the best that you personally can be.
Just because you weren't born Dave Tate does not mean you can't improve.

(2) Recovery periods vary for a number of reasons:- The North-American train-til-you-drop-several-times -a- week routines that are enthusiastically promoted on many sites are one of the reasons that people get injured and burn out so fast.

Everybody thinks that more is better.....and they give little regard to other functions and physiology because they simply are unaware of
of this information.
According to Dr.Fred Hatfield ( reknowned powerlifter)... big muscles take longer to recover than smaller muscles.

Yes......you could train all week......but you won't be training like the average bodybuilder. Some of the best strongmen in the past and also world champion powerlifters trained quite frequently.
But.....you won't be doing anywhere near the volume in reps, and you won't be going to failure much. You WOULD be going heavy, in the major compound lifts but not all-out and the reps would be down to 5 or less and the sets would be 2 or 3. And this could be done daily(not more than 5 times a week) if you know the ins and outs of the protocol. Most people don't.
They would interpret that statement as:- "Oh good!...I can lift my ass off each and every day!"...
Wrong.......If you train all-out max like this you will burn out in nothing flat.

(3) Age is a factor all right........there's just no getting around it.

If you know how to play your cards right in terms of training you can cut your recovery time because you will be in better shape.
It's like that guy on the Ed Sullivan show years ago who had all the saucers spinning on the poles. You have to attend to several factors to keep the whole show in the air successfully.

Since the physiological responses of a man over 60 are not the same as
a man of 20......it generally takes longer for an old guy to get results than a younger guy. Joint mobility can have a big effect on the training of an older man, because a lot of the pains associated with older training are mistaken for DOMS when in fact they are joint pains from
lack of mobility.
Get your self a copy of "Super Joints" By Pavel Tsatsouline.

There's a lot more to this game than simply banging off 3 sets of 8 reps on a machine Monday, Wednesday and Friday........