HIT and cardio

[Jokat]

Hi all,

I am starting with an HIT routine for the first time today. I am following Ellington Dardens program in his book The New High Intensity Training.

I would however like to know what I must do about my cardio workouts. I will be lifting three times a week initially (as I have been) and I have been doing cardio on the other two days of the week. Should I continue with this cardio or take it down a notch?

Kind Regards,

Preach

[1FastGTX]

Originally Posted by Preach

Hi all,

I am starting with an HIT routine for the first time today. I am following Ellington Dardens program in his book The New High Intensity Training.

I would however like to know what I must do about my cardio workouts. I will be lifting three times a week initially (as I have been) and I have been doing cardio on the other two days of the week. Should I continue with this cardio or take it down a notch?

Kind Regards,

Preach

What does the book say to do? (I honestly can't remember what he calls for in that book, though I have read it.)

What did your routine look like before? HIT is pretty demanding with the style of the reps and the short rest periods, so I actually would start off with no cardio personally.

But that's just me. I'd start off just about every routine with no cardio.

[RTE]

Originally Posted by Preach

I am following Ellington Dardens program in his book The New High Intensity Training.

I would however like to know what I must do about my cardio workouts. I will be lifting three times a week initially (as I have been) and I have been doing cardio on the other two days of the week. Should I continue with this cardio or take it down a notch?

Ellington doesn't feel you will need Cardio, especially if you take a 30-60 sec rest between sets and no more. You will feel the cardio effect if your weights are at the 80% of 1maxrep. HIT is a High Intensity training, you need to get your rest on off days and you shouldn't be able to do cardio on training days.

I am glad you chose HIT, I think it is the most effective and efficient means of training for the majority of people. Try it and see if you need cardio after say 6 weeks, I don't think you will.

http://www.mikementzer.com/aerobic.html

[Jokat]

Thanks for your replies... I am going to find it very very hard to cut out my cardio days. I have been doing them for so long now. I think I will see how things go for a while and then either add or cut down on cardio. I am still trying to cut down the last little bit of bodyfat.

I am very excited about HIT because I am getting bored with my regular style of workout.

Kind Regards,

Preach

[Hort]

I've done HIT of a sort and felt that cardio on the off days actually -helped- my recovery, mentally and physically. I kept it to LISS, around 60-65% max HR and only 25-35 minutes.

[Skoorb]

I will be damned if any form of weight training can get a person's cardiovascular fitness within even the same ballpark of a thorough cardio program. If you want to perform where a VO2 max is needed, I think you need to hit the treadmill/bike, etc.

[1FastGTX]

Originally Posted by Skoorb

I will be damned if any form of weight training can get a person's cardiovascular fitness within even the same ballpark of a thorough cardio program.

Then you're damned. Have you never heard of cutting rest periods incredibly short and of how taxing a real "beyond failure set" is?

I'm not saying it's the optimal routine but I will say it is very much in the ballpark with most people's treadmill routines.

Originally Posted by Skoorb

If you want to perform where a VO2 max is needed, I think you need to hit the treadmill/bike, etc.

But what if you want to have a nice body?

[RTE]

Originally Posted by Skoorb

I will be damned if any form of weight training can get a person's cardiovascular fitness within even the same ballpark of a thorough cardio program. If you want to perform where a VO2 max is needed, I think you need to hit the treadmill/bike, etc.

Let him determine the effect on his body. He has been doing cardio, he should be in shape. So he doesn't do cardio for six weeks, will he fall apart. Are the 600-800 calories a week that important to his success?

[Skoorb]

Originally Posted by 1FastGTX

Then you're damned. Have you never heard of cutting rest periods incredibly short and of how taxing a real "beyond failure set" is?

I'm not saying it's the optimal routine but I will say it is very much in the ballpark with most people's treadmill routines.

I've heard of it. I even recall getting out of breath in the past during some workouts, but I cannot imagine that anybody is going to be getting much of a cardio benefit from weights vs busting ass on a treadmill. It really does depend on the definitions of ballpark and most people's treadmill routines, though, but I just did a bad ass run this evening and I've never been even close to sucking air that bad after a session with weights!

But what if you want to have a nice body?

Maybe I'm being a bit of a cardio snob

Let him determine the effect on his body. He has been doing cardio, he should be in shape. So he doesn't do cardio for six weeks, will he fall apart. Are the 600-800 calories a week that important to his success?

Yeah 6 weeks won't make much of a difference based on his current two times/week. I've found that something like running builds in ease quicker than a newbie finds strength gains in weights, so it's not a big deal to cut it out from that standpoint, I just really take issue with the idea that weights at a fast tempo can compare to cardio. I am sure they offer some benefit, but can anybody say how much?

[1FastGTX]

Originally Posted by Skoorb

I've heard of it. I even recall getting out of breath in the past during some workouts, but I cannot imagine that anybody is going to be getting much of a cardio benefit from weights vs busting ass on a treadmill. It really does depend on the definitions of ballpark and most people's treadmill routines, though, but I just did a bad ass run this evening and I've never been even close to sucking air that bad after a session with weights!

Yes, it does depends on the definitions, agreed.

I'm not sure what is more demanding really. I think the majority of people can find it easier to push themselves on a treadmill than in the weight room. I think real high intensity training is extremely taxing though, it's just that not everyone can take it that far. It's not easy to do.

For the record I'm not a big fan of this type of weightlifting anyway, just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Skoorb

Maybe I'm being a bit of a cardio snob

Originally Posted by Skoorb

Yeah 6 weeks won't make much of a difference based on his current two times/week. I've found that something like running builds in ease quicker than a newbie finds strength gains in weights, so it's not a big deal to cut it out from that standpoint, I just really take issue with the idea that weights at a fast tempo can compare to cardio. I am sure they offer some benefit, but can anybody say how much?

I don't know what RTE's definition of a High Intensity workout is, but during those times that I've tried HIT I will tell you that it was MUCH more taxing on me than a treadmill ever was, from a cardiovascular standpoint.

Again, whether or not this is the ideal route for muscle building, fat loss, or whatever, is easily debatable. But I can definitely tell you that a treadmill never had me puking like a real High Intensity workout did.

[RTE]

Weight-Lifting Regimen Delivered Cardio Benefits


Bruce Jancin

ORLANDO, FLA. - Pure weight training can markedly improve aerobic fitness, Erika Baum, M.D., reported at Wonca 2004, the conference of the World Organization of Family Doctors.

A 6-month structured Nautilus weight-lifting program resulted in improvements in cardiocirculatory
fitness to a degree traditionally considered obtainable only through endurance exercises such as running, bicycling, and swimming, said Dr. Baum, a family physician at Philipps University, Marburg, Germany.

"This opens up new possibilities for cardiopulmonary-oriented exercise besides the traditional stamina sports," she noted. New exercise options are desirable because some patients just don't care for endurance exercise, which doesn't do much to improve muscular strength and stabilization.

Dr. Baum reported on 31 healthy but physically unfit 20- to 45-year-olds, including 8 women, who completed a Nautilus weight-training program involving two or three 30- to 40-minute sessions per week for 6 months.

Aerobic capacity, assessed on a graded treadmill exercise test, improved by 33% over the course of 6 months from a mean baseline of 55,475 watt-seconds. Women improved from a baseline of 47,253
watt-seconds to 62,822 watt-seconds, while endurance performance in men increased from 58,335 to 77,741 watt-seconds.

Meanwhile, mean body weight declined from 77.8 to 67.7 kg. Resting heart rate dropped from a baseline of 68.5 beats/min to 65.6 beats/min. Heart rate measured 3 minutes after stopping a maximal exercise test declined from a baseline of 108.7 to 103.1 beats/min after 6 months of training, with
a larger decrease in women than men.
================================================== ===

You cannot provide mechanical work for the muscles without engaging the cardiovascular system.. Therfore if you maximize the stimulus to the muscle, you must maximize the stimulus to the cardiovascular system as well. The cardiovascular system is there to support the muscles.

You can not directly work the heart. The only way to increase the demand on the cardiovascular system is by increasing the work the muscles are performing. What are you doing when you are runing? You are working your leg muscles to increase the demand on the heart.

You simply can not isolate the heart and work it independently of the skeletal muscles (unless you want to do so chemically). Provided the skeletal muscles are worked at a high enough level of intensity and for an adequate duration (which does not have to be that long) the heart will benefit as well.

A good HIT workout might not work the heart like a 5K run. But you don't have to run 5Ks to provide adquate stimuli to the heart.A good HIT workout and stay active ... take stairs instead of elevators, park away from stores and walk in, play ball with kids and etc.