bodybuilding and gymnastics

jsbrook · Fri, October 28th, 2005, 05:58 PM

Here is an interesting article on gymnastics as it relates to bodybuilding.

chicanerous · Fri, October 28th, 2005, 06:02 PM

Posts and articles written by Coach Sommer (the one interviewed): http://www.t-nation.com/memberPosts.do?id=95823

qadir · Sun, October 30th, 2005, 05:06 AM

On a slightly unrelated note, I started practicing the elbow levers, from a tutorial on beastskills, but I've been starting to have this pain in my right shoulder and my shoulder feels a bit stiff in the mornings.

It goes away if I stop doing elbow levers for a few days, but then comes back when I start practicing again. Am I doing something wrong since its in one shoulder only.

Has anyone had such an experience. Also how much practice is required before you perfect it? Currently I can only hold myself up for a few seconds

RM. Andersson · Sun, October 30th, 2005, 12:06 PM

I dont think gymnastics is a very efficent option if all you want is to build muscle as fast as possible.
However if your goal is true fitness and not just looking good it´s probably the best training you can do.

So ,IMO, it can be good or bad depending on your goal. Of course most people would probably agree that having the flexibility and core strenght to use the strenght the way these athletes can is nice. But is it worth it for normal bodybuilders? I guess most people would say no. I mean that training is painful and you need alot of skill to do it right.

HevyMetal · Sun, October 30th, 2005, 12:15 PM

According to the interview with Coach Sommers on T-Nation, the gymnasts spend quite awhile doing warmups for joint mobility before they get into it. Do you do any warmups for same before you start the ex? This sort of stuff shouldn't be done "cold".

chicanerous · Sun, October 30th, 2005, 12:23 PM

qadir, your shoulders probably aren't ready for the load. You should work the various raises with weights (front raises, lateral raises, bent-over lateral raises) and strengthen your rotator cuffs. You should probably be able to get a solid one in a month or two, depending on your current level of conditioning.

HevyMetal offers good advice. Make sure you are well warmed up and you've performed your arm circles, etc. before you practice the elbow lever. Once you have it well under your belt and are within the planche progression then it would be safer to practice without warm-up. Basically it must become "a piece of cake" and you are working much harder skills before it's safe to just do it. The same thing applies to weight-training: if you can barely bench press 100 lbs, you don't go in and do that cold -- you warm-up with 50 lbs and move upwards. Once you can barely press 200 lbs, it's fairly safe to just pick up the 100 lbs and play with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM. Andersson

I dont think gymnastics is a very efficent option if all you want is to build muscle as fast as possible. However if your goal is true fitness and not just looking good it´s probably the best training you can do.

I would absolutely agree. The best and fastest way to build muscles is diet and lifting weights -- nothing else compares. But, for anyone who wants overall fitness, gymnastics should be an essential part of their routine.

I think the Cross Fit mentality is a good one for that goal:

Quote:

Originally Posted by htp://www.crossfit.com

World-Class Fitness in 100 Words:
Eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar. Keep intake to levels that will support exercise but not body fat. Practice and train major lifts: Deadlift, clean, squat, presses, C&J, and snatch. Similarly, master the basics of gymnastics: pull-ups, dips, rope climb, push-ups, sit-ups, presses to handstand, pirouettes, flips, splits, and holds. Bike, run, swim, row, etc, hard and fast. Five or six days per week mix these elements in as many combinations and patterns as creativity will allow. Routine is the enemy. Keep workouts short and intense. Regularly learn and play new sports.

HevyMetal · Sun, October 30th, 2005, 01:46 PM

Would it be fair to say that gymnast ex's in general force you to use your muscles in a range of motion that in many instances is missing from a straight weightlifting routine thereby increasing overall stimulation? A weightlifter trains on average 2 to 3 times per week. Chicanerous..perhaps you know how often a gymnast trains to reach competion proportions? And of course, they would also have an "off" season too..so what do they do and how often then?

chicanerous · Sun, October 30th, 2005, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HevyMetal

Would it be fair to say that gymnast ex's in general force you to use your muscles in a range of motion that in many instances is missing from a straight weightlifting routine thereby increasing overall stimulation?

Yes. There's an emphasis on great strength in extended and uncommon ROMs. Most of the positions emphasized in gymnastics aren't done in weight-training. For example, the iron cross trains the arms in a straight position, subjecting the biceps to an extremely large amount of force, and the shoulders, chest, and lats in the lateral plane. You don't see either position trained to great strength in weightlifting.

The gymnastic off season is basically spent progressing -- learning new skills and achieving harder strength holds. In the pre- and competitive season, gymnasts basically practice and drill their routines over and over again, striving for consistency and their best performance of each skill (as much amplitude, power, etc. as they can get). A high, but not elite level, gymnast probably practices 5-6 times per week 2-4 hours each day -- I'm guessing. A lot of that time is spent drilling acrobatics and gaining and maintaining flexibility.

jsbrook · Sun, October 30th, 2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicanerous

Yes. There's an emphasis on great strength in extended and uncommon ROMs. Most of the positions emphasized in gymnastics aren't done in weight-training. For example, the iron cross trains the arms in a straight position, subjecting the biceps to an extremely large amount of force, and the shoulders, chest, and lats in the lateral plane. You don't see either position trained to great strength in weightlifting.

The gymnastic off season is basically spent progressing -- learning new skills and achieving harder strength holds. In the pre- and competitive season, gymnasts basically practice and drill their routines over and over again, striving for consistency and their best performance of each skill (as much amplitude, power, etc. as they can get). A high, but not elite level, gymnast probably practices 5-6 times per week 2-4 hours each day -- I'm guessing. A lot of that time is spent drilling acrobatics and gaining and maintaining flexibility.

Very interesting

qadir · Mon, October 31st, 2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

qadir, your shoulders probably aren't ready for the load. You should work the various raises with weights (front raises, lateral raises, bent-over lateral raises) and strengthen your rotator cuffs. You should probably be able to get a solid one in a month or two, depending on your current level of conditioning.

Thanks, I thought so too, but just wanted to make sure it was nothing wrong with the way I was doing it. I guess i'll try again after a month or so, and focus on developing my shoulders till then

gravityhomer · Mon, October 31st, 2005, 05:00 PM

Wow, I am just blown away by what gymnasts can do. These people are tremendous athletes. Thanks for posting this. I am going to check out the guys book that was mentioned at the end.

Are there many of the beginning holds that can be done without any equipment, ring etc.

I saw that the frog looked pretty basic. and then there was the planche pushup (how is that pronounced by the way?).

chicanerous · Mon, October 31st, 2005, 05:22 PM

Coach Sommer's book isn't out yet, but (if I remember correctly) it may be coming out in December or so.

Frog stand is the most basic version of the planche (except perhaps the elbow lever). You can do levers, using a bar (though rings are better for your shoulders). You can find some good tutorials on basic exercises at http://www.beastskills.com.

I have no idea how to properly pronounce planche. It's probably has a French pronounciation -- "plaunsh" or something. I've heard it Americanized as "plank." I like to say "plaunk" which doesn't really make sense. I usually just avoid speaking about it, lol.

gravityhomer · Mon, October 31st, 2005, 07:26 PM

Thanks for the link chicanerous, that's a great site, I'm looking forward to learning this stuff. I saw that the frog wasn't listed there. Is this a bad exercise to do? I just tried it a few times. The longest I was able to hold it was like 5 seconds maybe, I felt muscles that I think I never work. Below my pecs on my ribs there was some muscles there working hard.

chicanerous · Mon, October 31st, 2005, 07:29 PM

No, the frog is a good one. It's not listed because it's part of the planche progression and there isn't a tutorial for planches yet on that website. However, at the bottom of the tutorials page in the "Other Tutorials" section there's a link called "Planche and Front Lever Progression" which does include the frog stand.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/

gravityhomer · Mon, October 31st, 2005, 07:45 PM

Thanks, that was very useful. Telling me to put my hands directly in front of my toes really helped starting the move. And it forced my knees and elbows to be in a much more comfortable position. Still can't go longer than 5 sec yet. My delts are on fire too. This is fun.

zenpharaohs · Wed, November 2nd, 2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicanerous

I have no idea how to properly pronounce planche. It's probably has a French pronounciation -- "plaunsh" or something.

It's French, and 'plaunsh' isn't too far off. The middle part is somewhere between 'ah' and 'aw'.

Since it just means 'plank' anyway you can just say that.

'plonk' on the other hand is an English word which means cheap wine.