National Association To Advance Fat Acceptance

[Bob99]

www.naafa.org is the website of the National Association To Advance Fat Acceptance. It's a combination of hilarious and disturbing, and is chock-full of stupid stuff basically saying "diets don't work, we can't help it if we're fat."

What do people think about this movement? I think any time spent towards fat activism would be better expended on a treadmill.

A few quotes from the site:

"While weight loss is rarely permanent, the damage it can do to your body can be permanent."

"The failure of weight loss programs is so great that a leading researcher has said, "Dieting is the leading cause of obesity in the US.""

"Study after study has shown that our natural weight range is determined by genetics."

Some links to a few of the funnier pages from the "Information Brochures" section:

Common Myths About Fat People
http://www.naafa.org/documents/brochures/myths.html

Weight Loss: Fact and Fiction
http://www.naafa.org/documents/broch...eightloss.html

[JoeSchmo]

Originally Posted by Bob99

What do people think about this movement?

Well, given that this is a fitness site, I'll make the stunning prediction that most people here won't like it.

I do hope though, that this thread doesn't turn into one of those fat-bashing threads that pop up around here from time to time.... (I'm not saying that is what you are doing Bob99).

[Bob99]

I agree, I don't want this to become a fat-bashing thread either. I don't have anything against fat people; what I'm against is this organization that seems to be full of incorrect information. If someone is overweight and thinking of starting a healthy lifestyle, it's pretty bad for this group to say "Why bother? The odds of success are less than winning the lottery!"

I had no idea this group existed, and I thought I'd point it out to others here. Reading the pages are a lot like reading some nutty conspiracy theories online, and their arguments are just as convincing.

[phillydude]

"While weight loss is rarely permanent, the damage it can do to your body can be permanent."

Could be true... the "yo-yo effect" of losing and then re-gaining weight can cause permanent damage to your body.

"The failure of weight loss programs is so great that a leading researcher has said, "Dieting is the leading cause of obesity in the US.""

Could be true... I think that there are so many "bad" diets that it certainly could be possible... many "bad" diets restrict calories to the extent that the body stores fat.

"Study after study has shown that our natural weight range is determined by genetics."

Could be true... I think we all can agree that there is a "set point" that our bodies, if not regulated through diet and exercise, tend to maintain.

Originally Posted by Bob99

It's pretty bad for this group to say "Why bother? The odds of success are less than winning the lottery!"

Sad to say their statement is right on the money... if you take into consideration that not everyone plays the lottery (just as not everyone tries to lose weight)... add that group in with those who "play but lose" and it's a pretty large percentage of the population.


I don't believe for one minute that fat people choose to be fat... all they are asking is that they are accepted the way that they are.

[TheLemonSong]

Originally Posted by Bob99

I agree, I don't want this to become a fat-bashing thread either. I don't have anything against fat people; what I'm against is this organization that seems to be full of incorrect information. If someone is overweight and thinking of starting a healthy lifestyle, it's pretty bad for this group to say "Why bother? The odds of success are less than winning the lottery!"

I had no idea this group existed, and I thought I'd point it out to others here. Reading the pages are a lot like reading some nutty conspiracy theories online, and their arguments are just as convincing.

I'm not so sure about the "fat-bashing" threads here...I feel like there is a pretty nice balance between positive reenforcement of the values that most people on this board have and the negative reenforcement of those values.
I agree that the disinformation here is troubling...but here's my schpiel...

I don't think it's very polite for me or anyone to go up to a fat person and say "Hey fatty! Fatty fatty fatcakes why don't you go eat another bucket of ice cream, fathead!" To me, that is "fat-bashing" and I don't think that goes on this board. I think that displaying distaste for those who A) lie to themselves and B) push that lie on the rest of the community at large (often with damaging affect) is 100% acceptable and is in no way "fat-bashing".
So, in accordance with my thoughts on "fat-bashing"...

A) Look, if you're fat and jolly and that's cool with you...that's fine...but don't lie to yourself or to me. It's insulting. Of the overweight population, I'm sure there is a tiny segment who are genetically incapable of losing weight, and there is also a segment of folks who are just genetically big guys and are also healthy despite looking, well, big. This is not the majority of people who are joining this kind of organization, however. The people joining this are self-defeatists.

Somedays I make good choices, and other days I make bad choices. When I make bad decisions I don't look in the mirror and say "Hey, it was hard sleeping on the couch all day...you deserved that 8th beer and that lawnbag filled with potato chips..." I just say, "Well, I F'ed up, I did the wrong thing."

B) Other people however, make bad choices, and then want to say "It's not so harmful." or "I just can't help it." Which in my world is equivalent to, "I can drive just fine when I'm drunk...I do it all the time..." No you can't, you're just lying to yourself because it sucks walking home from the bar or calling a cab.

So basically, you can call me a fat-basher if you think that's what's up...but I call it like I see it, and that website isn't worth the cyberspace it was written on.

[Croz]

I have very mixed feelings about this issue.

On one hand, in a modern society, there should be no reason to discriminate against fat people simply on the basis that they are fat. In prehistoric times, if someone was able to become fat, it showed that they were unusually lazy and lived unfairly off the work of others. Perhaps that feeling is still locked into our DNA somewhere causing people to think that fat people are lazy, lack self control, etc.

On the other hand, your body fat percentage is not the color of your skin. While everyone has slightly different metabolisms, body types, etc, those truly genetic factors are likely just simple variations around a mean. From my personal experience as a recovering fat person I can say that if you are fat and come from fat parents, it's likely because you learned their exercise and eating habits, not that you are genetically predetermined to be obese.

My biggest problem with these types of organizations, is that they try to absolve people of personal responsibility. They cherry pick research to find quotes that support their goals (like all organizations do) but in the process tell people that they can't help it. They're meant to be that way, and they leave them vulnerable for the myriad of medical complications that come from obesity. While some may truly not be able to help it (Prader-Wili syndrome patients for example) many more could be spared these medical problems if they were just encouraged to know that they could change things.

The other big problem is that it just feed the 'jackpot justice' mentality that is so prevalent in our society. They exist as a means to sue people.

If I get on an airplane, where what they sell are seats, and I take two seats because of my size, I do not have a constitutionally granted right to pay for only one.

If I want a job at the front desk of a fitness center, and I weight 400 pounds, I do not have a constitutionally granted right to that job.

These are precisely the types of lawsuits that come from groups like NAAFA.

[TheLemonSong]

Originally Posted by Croz

The other big problem is that it just feed the 'jackpot justice' mentality that is so prevalent in our society. They exist as a means to sue people.

If I get on an airplane, where what they sell are seats, and I take two seats because of my size, I do not have a constitutionally granted right to pay for only one.

If I want a job at the front desk of a fitness center, and I weight 400 pounds, I do not have a constitutionally granted right to that job.

These are precisely the types of lawsuits that come from groups like NAAFA.

I hadn't thought of this, but you make a great point here. There is actually a tip sheet on there about how to make airline travel easier, though, so maybe that *could* cut down on lawsuits...

Also, for those who haven't read the site...they talk quite a bit about how diets=starvation.

The normal daily intake for adults is 2400-3000 calories a day. yet most commercial weight loss programs range from 945- 1200 calories a day . The World Health organization defines starvation (the point at which the body is dying) as 900 calories or less a day.

I think this is a little extreme, but I think it's worth noting that most people who are coming to these boards and making good progress agree that starvation diets are aweful.

Also,

While weight loss is rarely permanent, the damage it can do to your body can be permanent. When you don ' t eat enough to maintain your body, your body begins to consume itself. Most people think they are losing fat when they diet, yet study after study shows that dieting destroys muscle, bone, and even brain tissue.

Yikes, brain tissue?! I don't want to end up stupid...I better just stick to being overweight...diet and exercise are scary...

[karatetricker]

Originally Posted by TheLemonSong

I'm not so sure about the "fat-bashing" threads here...I feel like there is a pretty nice balance between positive reenforcement of the values that most people on this board have and the negative reenforcement of those values.
I agree that the disinformation here is troubling...but here's my schpiel...

I don't think it's very polite for me or anyone to go up to a fat person and say "Hey fatty! Fatty fatty fatcakes why don't you go eat another bucket of ice cream, fathead!" To me, that is "fat-bashing" and I don't think that goes on this board. I think that displaying distaste for those who A) lie to themselves and B) push that lie on the rest of the community at large (often with damaging affect) is 100% acceptable and is in no way "fat-bashing".
So, in accordance with my thoughts on "fat-bashing"...

A) Look, if you're fat and jolly and that's cool with you...that's fine...but don't lie to yourself or to me. It's insulting. Of the overweight population, I'm sure there is a tiny segment who are genetically incapable of losing weight, and there is also a segment of folks who are just genetically big guys and are also healthy despite looking, well, big. This is not the majority of people who are joining this kind of organization, however. The people joining this are self-defeatists.

Somedays I make good choices, and other days I make bad choices. When I make bad decisions I don't look in the mirror and say "Hey, it was hard sleeping on the couch all day...you deserved that 8th beer and that lawnbag filled with potato chips..." I just say, "Well, I F'ed up, I did the wrong thing."

B) Other people however, make bad choices, and then want to say "It's not so harmful." or "I just can't help it." Which in my world is equivalent to, "I can drive just fine when I'm drunk...I do it all the time..." No you can't, you're just lying to yourself because it sucks walking home from the bar or calling a cab.

So basically, you can call me a fat-basher if you think that's what's up...but I call it like I see it, and that website isn't worth the cyberspace it was written on.

It's not that you're a "fat-basher" in the sense that you insult people who are fat, it's that you [appear to] have this mentality that you are better than those who are fat because you eat healthy and exercise. Perhaps you don't actually feel that way, but it comes off like that in your post and many, many posts others have made in regard to overweight people who don't wish to take on a healthier lifestyle. I always see mocking of overweight people who don't conform to the ideals of people on this site.

I'm not saying I agree with people that are overweight staying that way if they can help it, but it's their life and their choice. If eating a lot and/or not exercising makes them happy, god bless them. Being overweight is just one piece of the puzzle, and I'm sure there are other facets of life in which overweight people can look at people like us and say "Wow, that person chose not to do X when all they had to do was put in some extra effort". I'm sure a guy who got his MBA at Harvard and is CEO of some big company pulling in $2 mil a year but sits at 25% body fat looks at many of us and says "You didn't work your ass off to get into Harvard and then work your way to the top? I'm not a genius, yet I did. You must not have your priorities straight and be lazy or unmotivated." Sure, it's an exaggerated example, but it should help make my point. Everyone has priorities in life and many people just don't want to lose weight bad enough. It doesn't make them any better or worse of a person, or us any better than them because we choose to stay in shape.

And FWIW, I agree. This group isn't exactly setting the best example, but what are you going to do?

[TheLemonSong]

Originally Posted by karatetricker

It's not that you're a "fat-basher" in the sense that you insult people who are fat, it's that you [appear to] have this mentality that you are better than those who are fat because you eat healthy and exercise. Perhaps you don't actually feel that way, but it comes off like that in your post and many, many posts others have made in regard to overweight people who don't wish to take on a healthier lifestyle. I always see mocking of overweight people who don't conform to the ideals of people on this site.

I'm not saying I agree with people that are overweight staying that way if they can help it, but it's their life and their choice. If eating a lot and/or not exercising makes them happy, god bless them. Being overweight is just one piece of the puzzle, and I'm sure there are other facets of life in which overweight people can look at people like us and say "Wow, that person chose not to do X when all they had to do was put in some extra effort". I'm sure a guy who got his MBA at Harvard and is CEO of some big company pulling in $2 mil a year but sits at 25% body fat looks at many of us and says "You didn't work your ass off to get into Harvard and then work your way to the top? I'm not a genius, yet I did. You must not have your priorities straight and be lazy or unmotivated." Sure, it's an exaggerated example, but it should help make my point. Everyone has priorities in life and many people just don't want to lose weight bad enough. It doesn't make them any better or worse of a person, or us any better than them because we choose to stay in shape.

And FWIW, I agree. This group isn't exactly setting the best example, but what are you going to do?

Here's my beef...in some aspects of my life I take the easy way out and in others I take the hard way. The hard way is always more difficult and simultaneously more rewarding. I'm not trying to get a big head about it, but "the system" (fastfood, etc.) works *against* those who, in my opinion and that of many posters here, take the hard way in an attempt to better themselves. This is a support forum for a minority of people making what we believe to be the right choices, while simultaneously facing an adgenda diametrically opposed to just that...and a way to show solidarity and to support one another is to say "We believe X to be not as good as Y." This may be judgement, but not all judgement is bad (believe it or not).

As I said, if you're fat and jolly, that's cool with me...why wouldn't it be?...it's not those people who are saying "Bah! Why waste your time with those dumbells, dumbell!" On the contrary, it are self-defeatists and those who have allowed the pressures of "the system" (taking the easy way out) who say "Oh, c'mon it's just one piece of cake, you're too skinny!" I think that this is especially true for the women on this board.

I don't see this as "fat-bashing." As I said, it's important to honestly self-assess. Recently, I've been relatively lazy. Who am I to get a big head? *However*, I'm openly admitting to being lazy and not trying to place the blame on someone or something else.
If you self-assess and say "Hey, I'm a Harvard grad pullin' 2 million a year and I don't care if I weigh 400lbs I'm still going to be happy!", more power to you! That is *not* what I see on this particular website. What I see is, "Look, you don't want to get in shape because that'd be some hard work, and if you don't want to put in that work we'll support you in that endeavor."
The lack of honest self-assessment from these people is the same as that of the guy you know that drinks more than he should but still says he's undercontrol, or your friends who have told you 10000000 times that they're going to quit smoking and don't...if I've got a big head about something, it's this. I self-assess very well and others don't and it's bothersome to me not only as a pet-peeve but on a larger scale. If I'm guilty of something here, it's that, but it's not "fat-bashing".

So let's ask this...

You wrote that the group wasn't setting the best example. I agree with you, but, without 'fat-bashing', why do you think that this site is setting a bad example for others?

Then you asked, "what are you going to do?"
My answer is simple: state my displeasure for sites like these, encourage others to get in shape and do what I consider to be the "right" thing, and continue to self-assess and see if after reading posts from others, like you, that I still believe what I believe.

[Croz]

Slightly OT, but I love this. The site posts a link with this headline:

Study Says Weight Loss May Raise Risk of Death


That's not true! The risk of death, whether you lose weight or not, remains at 100%.

You will die.

[karatetricker]

Originally Posted by TheLemonSong

I don't see this as "fat-bashing." As I said, it's important to honestly self-assess. Recently, I've been relatively lazy. Who am I to get a big head? *However*, I'm openly admitting to being lazy and not trying to place the blame on someone or something else.
...
I self-assess very well and others don't and it's bothersome to me not only as a pet-peeve but on a larger scale. If I'm guilty of something here, it's that, but it's not "fat-bashing".

I could respond to all this (and did, but erased it), but it'd be pointless. We'll go in circles. You're entitled to your beliefs, I just disagree with the tone you take towards those who choose not to lose weight, whether it's their choice not to do so or because they have wrongly convinced themselves it's impossible. And it's not just you, I was being more general since you were sort of defending the "I'm better than people who don't want to lose weight" camp. It's sporadic, yes, but I do see many posts where people ridicule those who aren't as fitness oriented as we are here. It was just the other day I responded to someone insulting people who use drive thru's and keep their "fat ass in the car".

That said, If you take issue with groups like the one above that try and help convince people into not losing weight, I wholeheartedly agree. But that's a different story. Your original post came off as generalizing all those who choose not to lose weight.

Originally Posted by TheLemonSong

You wrote that the group wasn't setting the best example. I agree with you, but, without 'fat-bashing', why do you think that this site is setting a bad example for others?

Simple. While people may choose to remain overweight for whatever the reason may be, forming a group to convince people that losing weight is unreasonable is, in my opinion, not right. Even though I have never smoked, nor will I ever because I think it's a disgusting habit, I have nothing against people who do smoke. That said, if there was a group encouraging people to do so for some bullshit reasons, I'd take issue with it.

Originally Posted by TheLemonSong

Then you asked, "what are you going to do?"
My answer is simple: state my displeasure for sites like these, encourage others to get in shape and do what I consider to be the "right" thing, and continue to self-assess and see if after reading posts from others, like you, that I still believe what I believe.

You are unlikely going to shut down groups like this, especially not by preaching to the choir. If you are that interested in shutting groups like them down, I suggest you try and convince them of their incorrect beliefs.

That said, you put way too much stock into this "self-assess" business. What if the group here said "We know it's not healthy to be overweight, but we don't care. We love eating, hate exercising and it's a great way of life. Please join us in our quest to make others see the light.". Now that they are openly admitting they know they are overweight because they choose to be, would you be any more accepting of their goal?

[TheLemonSong]

Right on K-trick, it's been a nice discussion and I hope it continues. We dont' see eye-to-eye here.

I will however respond to the last segment here in hopes that others chime in with thier opinions....

If they said "We know it's not healthy to be overweight, but we dont' care. We love eating, hate exercising and it's a great way of life. Please join us..." Then the only issue I would have is the "please join us". I'm preaching to the choir because I'm *not* trying to go around telling other people how to live. If they admitted that they were simply *deciding* to act like they are and not doing it for some misguided reason, or something like that, then yes I would be accepting. This is why the first step of AA or NA or any of those is *admitting* you have a problem.

If someone says, "Hey look, I'm a crack addict and I know it's wrong but I really love crack." I can look at this and say "If they reform thier life, that is a good thing from my viewpoint, and if they choose not to at *least* they aren't putting the blame on others and they're more likely to avoid behavior that could have an affect on me personally." Ok, that's a pretty extreme example, but it illustrates my point. Those who make conscious decisions and know what they are doing and self-assess are safer, smarter individuals...if someone is going to use the "...as long as it doesn't hurt others..." argument (which you seem to tote) self-assessment is the only way to do so while retaining the ability to care for the feelings others. Otherwise it'd just be 100% selfish.

[Carole]

I made a cursory scan of the link provided (naaf.org) and have read the posts preceding my own, all of which were most interesting. I should go back and do a better job of availing myself of the information that is being proffered to the public via the naaf.org web site…..I shall at a later date. I think I would just like to add to the thoughts expressed above that, in my experience at least, enabling destructive behavior is rarely, if ever, a good idea.

[rtestes]

Originally Posted by Carole

I think I would just like to add to the thoughts expressed above that, in my experience at least, enabling destructive behavior is rarely, if ever, a good idea.

The problem with the world today is we accept the unacceptable.

[lostmind]

I don't have a problem with fat people but I do have a problem with this site.

I may not understand what drives a person to eat until they are 300+ lbs at 5' tall... but the only pre-judging I do is to note that they over eat and under exercise. They are still human. If they abuse the system (welfare and medical) to stay at home and overeat and sit on the couch, I look at them no worse then I do anyone else who abuses the system for any other need.

That site is just full of bs it seems. All these statements yet very few links and references... obese people generally do not eat more then the average person... is that just a play on words? When the average person is now tending towards obesity... or saying that 98% of dieters regain all their lost weight from the diet in 5 years... well of course they do, because they stopped following their diet! Is it the fault of the diet? Or the dieter? BAH I find stuff like this so frustrating.

I really wonder if this site is for real or a gag....

[guava]

Originally Posted by phillydude

I don't believe for one minute that fat people choose to be fat... all they are asking is that they are accepted the way that they are.

People don't choose to be fat, but they do choose to "not be fit". There are hardly any fat people who wouldn't cease to be obese if they developed the motivation and education to favorably alter their diet and exercise program. They do not have that motivation, and they do not think there's something wrong with them because they lack that motivation. They have different priorities in their lives and would like more freedom to explore them.

Originally Posted by TheLemonSong

If they said "We know it's not healthy to be overweight, but we dont' care. We love eating, hate exercising and it's a great way of life. Please join us..." Then the only issue I would have is the "please join us".

I don't think they're saying "we know it's not healthy to be overweight", and I don't think they're saying "please join us". I think they're saying "we're imperfect, and it's fine if you recognize that we're imperfect, but don't treat me like I'm less valuable than you are just because you look better in a bathing suit than I do".

I do think it's a mistake that the site promotes the belief of the futility of weight loss. A fat acceptance movement could lead to diminishing people's motivation to enhance their vitality.

[TheLemonSong]

Originally Posted by rtestes

The problem with the world today is we accept the unacceptable.

I couldn't have said it better myself...welcome to my part of the world ...

Originally Posted by guava

People don't choose to be fat, but they do choose to "not be fit". There are hardly any fat people who wouldn't cease to be obese if they developed the motivation and education to favorably alter their diet and exercise program. They do not have that motivation, and they do not think there's something wrong with them because they lack that motivation. They have different priorities in their lives and would like more freedom to explore them.I don't think they're saying "we know it's not healthy to be overweight", and I don't think they're saying "please join us".
I think they're saying "we're imperfect, and it's fine if you recognize that we're imperfect, but don't treat me like I'm less valuable than you are just because you look better in a bathing suit than I do".

I do think it's a mistake that the site promotes the belief of the futility of weight loss. A fat acceptance movement could lead to diminishing people's motivation to enhance their vitality.

Guava, if you re-read you'll see that that comment was based on a hypothetical not related to the site itself. I agree with you.

[drewrockinmn]

Originally Posted by Croz

Slightly OT, but I love this. The site posts a link with this headline:

Study Says Weight Loss May Raise Risk of Death


That's not true! The risk of death, whether you lose weight or not, remains at 100%.

You will die.

True, true. to the king of depressing logic!