Today at work a female colleague was telling me about the female self defence class she had been to, run by the local Police. She explained some moves and demonstrated them on me. To be honest this alarmed me, I am not a large male (~5'8") and I'm not particularly strong, certainly not as strong as the average male, yet these moves posed no threat to me as a potential attacker. When she grabbed my wrist to twist it into a disabling position I was quite capable of not only halting the move, but reversing it on her (I didnt hurt her).

She giggled and said "it worked on the instructor". Is it not dangerous for these courses to give somebody a false sense of ability?

Adrian

I have never taken self defence classes, but my feeling is that it gives you a sense of ability, yes, and strong enough to not avoid places/things you wouldn't normally go to/do. Thank you for telling us this!
The only experience I have with self defence is a video from the British Free Fighting Academy. Some of tecniques seemed realistic, while others might have worked if the attacker was sprayed with pepper spray, was wearing high heels, and had just come out coma.
Hope she goes back and repeat what she learned. Hopefully she won't need it, but she stands a better chance if she work on her tecnique and get better response from her instructor. She should deffinitely tell the instructor about this experience.

Today at work a female colleague was telling me about the female self defence class she had been to, run by the local Police. She explained some moves and demonstrated them on me. To be honest this alarmed me, I am not a large male (~5'8") and I'm not particularly strong, certainly not as strong as the average male, yet these moves posed no threat to me as a potential attacker. When she grabbed my wrist to twist it into a disabling position I was quite capable of not only halting the move, but reversing it on her (I didnt hurt her).

She giggled and said "it worked on the instructor". Is it not dangerous for these courses to give somebody a false sense of ability?

Adrian

It's as simple as this -- A single women's self-defense class will increase a woman's ability to defend herself by MAYBE 1%. It is impossible to master the moves and theories in such a short amount of time. They are supposed to give women some idea of what they might do, but without training for several months/years, chances are they will be unable to pull off anything special. This is why courses like these are not supposed to teach wrist locks, throws, etc. They are supposed to teach practical quick defenses like eye pokes, throat strikes, using keys, pencils, magazines, or any other prop that may help defend oneself.

true...

In all honesty I've never been a fan of any martial arts either, I think they are a great form of mental as well as physical exercise. My friend is a brown belt of some string of karate, if you met him you would know this meant nothing.

A lot of the time crazy beats strong/skilled. As per my signature, on the street people don't play fair.

This link is to a video, which is a comedy sketch, but it is a good demonstration of what I mean. You'll need to copy and paste it.

http://www.jeffmash.com/videos/BritFight.wmv

edit: there is some bad language in it, so don't watch with your kids.

adeyman,
You are right the belt means nothing. But for your own sake dont ever cross one of the women from my club.
I like that you use a single person that you know to demonstrate how martial arts dont work.
If you had trained or knew someone that had spent some time in a reality orientated club you would have a leg to stand on. I really dont think you have enough exposure to MA to know anything meaningful about the topic.
Crazy often does beat strong/skilled problem is Crazy doesnt beat Crazy, strong and skilled.

and you do realise its acting for a movie dont you :nod:

Widerbeast,

I know alot of people who do martial arts, I've watched them sparring for shows/competitions. I've had them demonstrate moves on me. I've sat for hour after hour listening to them talk about the fluidity and economy of a move. I used one perticular example because he is quite far up, but, and without being facetious, he is as useless as....well, me.

But, youre right I have no personal experiance of MA training (I did start once but after 4/5 sessions wasnt impressed)

The video was just to show what I meant, and because i thought it was funny enough to share. I'm not sure what you mean by reality oriented, but if it's street skills like police learn then I'm all for that.

When it comes down to it fighting is always dirty, there are no marks for contact areas or style.

adeyman,
I know lots of people that fit into the catagory that you are talking about. Mcdojo tends to be the word used for their clubs. The points sparring / kata shows / competitions that you refer to are a often a joke in terms of self defence.
What i mean when i say reality orientated is a class that matchs light against heavy , women against men, 1 verses many and all with full contact. (Safety Gear is of course utilised). Presure testing sets the clubs apart because students have to be able to make it work on aggresive attackers who are resisting as much as feassibly possible.
Your right that this happens in very few clubs. Just dont doubt that when you come accross someone from a club that does, windmilling isnt gonna make a difference.
I practise JKD so your sig was taken a little more personal than it should be. Sorry on that one.

I've only seen a little of these, but I can say that I'm not surprised. The fact of the matter is that a guy who's taken some of the more popular martial arts classes will still find himself on the losing end in a great many conflicts. Without _tons_ of practice, or a very efficient martial art, it's really difficult to train one's way to superiority over somebody else who's bigger, stronger, faster.

Now, take that and apply it to women and you'll see the problem. A few afternoons spent kicking an instructor in the nuts isn't going to help a woman much at all. It may help a little, but if a man who's twice as strong and outweighs her by 50 lbs is intent on doing harm, he probably will be able to.

By far the best defense is observing the environment and not being put in such a situation in the first place. Should one find themselves in a bad situation, then clawing/kicking/screaming, is all that can be done, but any silly tricks with wrists and trying to put an attacker in a hold, etc. is a total waste of time.In all honesty I've never been a fan of any martial arts either, I think they are a great form of mental as well as physical exercise. My friend is a brown belt of some string of karate, if you met him you would know this meant nothing.
Well, simply, most martial arts schools are a waste of time, besides the excercise benefits. Most of these schools spend time teaching katas and spend 30 minutes practicing some silly kick move, but practically speaking they are a waste of time. I remember taking TKD lessons for months at one point and thinking "hmm, maybe this could be useful". Then, when I was in university I spend some time with a guy who was teaching jiujitsu and thai kick boxing and I realized immediately how utterly useless most of the crap that people learn is. This time I _knew_ that in just a few short months I'd learned enough to seriously turn the tide of a fight. The reason is that if two people are fighting and one person wants it to end up on the ground, chances are that it will. At this point 95% of the traditional martial arts don't teach a darn thing. People see movies and figure that movies know about fighting, and their TKD school on the corner in the slums happens to teach the same stuff they saw Jet Li doing, so they think that they're learning how to fight.

It's as simple as this -- A single women's self-defense class will increase a woman's ability to defend herself by MAYBE 1%. It is impossible to master the moves and theories in such a short amount of time. They are supposed to give women some idea of what they might do, but without training for several months/years, chances are they will be unable to pull off anything special. This is why courses like these are not supposed to teach wrist locks, throws, etc. They are supposed to teach practical quick defenses like eye pokes, throat strikes, using keys, pencils, magazines, or any other prop that may help defend oneself.

lol magazines?? DEATH BY HOME AND GARDEN!! :lol:

http://www.kravmaga.com/

I took TaeKwonDo when i was younger and thats really just to look pretty...forms or katas arent going to do spit for you in a real situation.
Most of the technique is meant for long range strikes, round house kicks, whatever. To even hope to be effective most fights come down to close quarter blows and ANY fight i've ever been in has always ended on the ground. You can bank on that fact that the other guy/girl is looking to incapacitate you by getting you locked on the floor. Shit thats what I'm aiming for. The average joe douche thats starting the fight most likely has NO training (and i say that because if you are trained you are disicplined and dont go looking for fights) and unless you're a boxer by trade theres only so long you can throw punches for before you try tackling the guy.

things like Judo, Kravmaga, those specialize in getting you out of sticky situations on the ground. That and if you grew up in a rough neighborhood you're a street fighter...no subsitute for experience.

that being said most of these free "self defense courses" for woman are crap...they would be better served in investing in a tazer (http://www.tbotech.com/advancedtaser.htm)

My teacher told me a good story about one of his female students who took one of those self defense courses for women. The class gave her a great deal of confidence, so much so that she felt that she could walk thru a alleyway (it was a shortcut to her dorm) where some ruffians hung at night.

Anyway my teacher asked her to demonstrate on him what she would do if she were being attacked. At first she said no cause I will hurt you. Which he replied that it would be alright. So she abliged and he proceed to choke her. She tried to break the choke and could not, and then panic sunk in, and she froze. Lesson learned.

This applies to men the same. Most martial arts nowadays are about self improvement. There is not really that sense of danger for the vast majority of us to take our training to the edge. If my goal was to learn a devasting effecient martial art, I probably would try to get in contact in someone in a jail. The people living there are truly leading a martial lifestyle in that they live with the threat of death on a daily basis. And must be able to use whatever is at hand to defend or attack.

Well, simply, most martial arts schools are a waste of time, besides the excercise benefits. Most of these schools spend time teaching katas and spend 30 minutes practicing some silly kick move, but practically speaking they are a waste of time. I remember taking TKD lessons for months at one point and thinking "hmm, maybe this could be useful". Then, when I was in university I spend some time with a guy who was teaching jiujitsu and thai kick boxing and I realized immediately how utterly useless most of the crap that people learn is. This time I _knew_ that in just a few short months I'd learned enough to seriously turn the tide of a fight. The reason is that if two people are fighting and one person wants it to end up on the ground, chances are that it will. At this point 95% of the traditional martial arts don't teach a darn thing. People see movies and figure that movies know about fighting, and their TKD school on the corner in the slums happens to teach the same stuff they saw Jet Li doing, so they think that they're learning how to fight.

:lol:

Spend a year at my school and tell me you're not a better person in every single way because of it -- physically, mentally and emotionally.

I'm sorry, that was the most uninformed, ignorant comment about martial arts I've seen in a long time. You are basing this off what? A few months at a crappy TKD school? TKD isn't a very efficient self defending art in the first place. Then add the fact that since it's a well known style, most of them are the McDojos mentioned earlier.

What you said is a completely general statement and has no ground in a debate regarding MA. Having studied MA for over 12 years at a variety of schools in several styles, I can tell you a 100 ways in which my life has benefited from my studies. Can I kick the shit out of every man who walks? No. However, that aside I still woudn't trade my MA experience for anything.

Now to the self-defense aspect. Can I take someone who is twice my size and a lot more experienced in real fighting than me? Maybe, maybe not. Can I defend myself against someone almost any size but with no fighting experience? I'd bet you a good portion of what I own I could...

:lol:

Spend a year at my school and tell me you're not a better person in every single way because of it -- physically, mentally and emotionally.

I'm sorry, that was the most uninformed, ignorant comment about martial arts I've seen in a long time. You are basing this off what? A few months at a crappy TKD school? TKD isn't a very efficient self defending art in the first place. Then add the fact that since it's a well known style, most of them are the McDojos mentioned earlier.

What you said is a completely general statement and has no ground in a debate regarding MA. Having studied MA for over 12 years at a variety of schools in several styles, I can tell you a 100 ways in which my life has benefited from my studies. Can I kick the shit out of every man who walks? No. However, that aside I still woudn't trade my MA experience for anything.

Now to the self-defense aspect. Can I take someone who is twice my size and a lot more experienced in real fighting than me? Maybe, maybe not. Can I defend myself against someone almost any size but with no fighting experience? I'd bet you a good portion of what I own I could...This would be the second time you referred to one of my posts as ignorant, but when I responded to that in the gymnist thread you failed to reappear in the thread (since my logic was unassailable), so forgive me if I am terse in my response here.

Regarding self-improvement, I was not talking about that. MA may improve discipline and fitness, even in an individual who's gaining no significant means of self-defense. What I was talking about was self-defense, and yes I'm right that most of the crap that people are taught is just that. If you want to debate the other merits of MA, go right ahead, but I've no interest in them.

The fact is that _most_ people who take up some form of martial arts are doing so in a manner that is terribly inefficient from a self-defense point of view. That's what I said above, that's what I'm saying here, and that's the truth of the matter.

I'm happy for you that you have found what you consider to be a good school. Most people aren't in good schools. I've also found that people are terribly defensive of what they've dumped years and years into, only to find that the practical benefits of it were not what they've been led to believe by their instructor. Do you fit into this category? I have no idea, but rest assured that hundreds upon hundreds of hours spent practicing round houses, katas, and other impractical things of this nature may further one in their martial art (ie. more belst), but it won't do much to further them in combat, which is what most people are interested in.

One shouldn't find it surprising that the clear trend in sports like the UFC is that the proponents of highly structured martial arts are embarrassed in almost every case, because real fighting is not what most people are taught. There is no substitute for experience and practice (sparring). Give me a guy who's spent several classes with a grizzled ex-street fighter over somebody who's spent 12 months working towards his next belt at the school in the strip mall.

most self defence classes arnt that helpfull for women.. karate knows whats he's talking about.

i have found TKD to be very useless in all aspects of defence. i had trained only a few months in brazy jiu jitsu, val tudo and mui thai and i had the chance to spar against a black belt TKD instructor.. now, i had no chance trading punch for punch.. but within two minutes i slammed him down into the matt and had him tap out

you want real self defence.. try MMA (mixed martial arts).. a combo of jiu jitsu and kick boxing or boxing.. or val tudo

That video is a laugh, seen it before, it's true too :lol:

I'm a Brown Belt in Ju Jitsu, but I haven't time for it anymore because of work and had to leave, plus I eventually lost all motivation.

But because of it it has gave me confidence to be able to fight when I need too (I prefere not too), and I know what I am capable off. I'm not going to grab someone's punch, twist it and do a fly kick....... I'm going to attempt to block the punch quickly, move in close to them and do real damage, weither it's Martial arts or not.

I'm not fond of Karate, it's a bit too stiff, the reason I prefered Ju Jitsu was because it was much more loose and used a lot more movement. A small guy can bring a giant (compared to him, you know what I mean) to his knees very quickly if they know how.

I read recently that a real-life fight broke out backstage at a WWE event.

Kurt Angle, an olympic gold medalist in freestyle wrestling, got into it with Eddie Gurrero. Supposidly in a matter of a couple of seconds Kurt Angle took Eddie down and whipped his butt.

Maybe wrestling is a better way to learn to defend yourself. I have read that a huge majority of real street fights end up on the ground anyway.

Which is why I always preferred Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do(sp?) anyhow. I am not an expert in this area of discussion but from reading his book it sure seems like a different style than other forms of self defense. Advocating kicking in the groin, poking someone's eyes out, biting, etc. :)

"Jeet Kune Do"
That and Brazilian Jujitsu are the two I practise

Unfortunately a lot of the martial arts taught today are watered down versions of the originals, the current term is McDojo. Traditional martial arts were designed to maim or kill quickly. Organized competitions are unrealistic for self-defense. They are too structured and have rules of engagement. A school should have a lineage that dates back sometimes centuries. It should focus on strength, agility, speed and technique. The style I practice was originated by a society that developed it as a way to defend itself against oppressive governments and rival countries in a time when weapons were prohibited. It takes years to become proficient.

http://www.americankaratefederation.org/

This would be the second time you referred to one of my posts as ignorant, but when I responded to that in the gymnist thread you failed to reappear in the thread (since my logic was unassailable), so forgive me if I am terse in my response here.

Actually, I did respond to your still ludicrous response in that gymnastics thread. I spent a good 15 minutes typing it, only to have my internet give out when I tried to post it and I was in no mood to re-type it. Arguing with you about nonsense isn't the only thing I have to do in my life.

Am I going to respond to this post? No, I have other things to do and you're obviously very narrow-minded. Why waste my time? Believe what you want. I just feel sorry for you if you ever get into a fight with a true martial artist. :nod:

Actually, I did respond to your still ludicrous response in that gymnastics thread. I spent a good 15 minutes typing it, only to have my internet give out when I tried to post it and I was in no mood to re-type it.I've done that before, and I don't blame you for not re-typing, but until I see evidence subverting my points I will stand by them. I've already said my piece on it, and like I said, the logic is unassailable. I'll stick to that until it's debunked.Am I going to respond to this post? No, I have other things to do and you're obviously very narrow-minded. Why waste my time? Believe what you want. I just feel sorry for you if you ever get into a fight with a true martial artist. :nod:Frankly, I don't think we disagree as much as you think. You used the word mcdojo yourself, and that's what I was talking about. I assert that most schools are of this nature, and you admit that some are, so probably the only fundamental difference between our points of view is that I think most places are like this, and your estimate of the frequency is lower.

I think when we're talking about the practicality of "martial arts," the biggest gap in understanding falls on anybody who fails to include regular old boxing and wrestling into these categories. My personal opinion is that there are unwarranted biases both for and against martial arts in its many definitions, and I don't think people tend to look at the question fairly.

An important question is being neglected - How many actual fights has the person been in?

Krav-maga, Systema/Sambo, Ju-Jitsu, TKD, capoeira, boxing, wrestling, or trying to poke people with keys and kick them in the groin, my money is first and foremost on the person who's actually been in a fight. This is, I think, one reason why banged-up midwestern wrestlers routinely showed up martial arts masters in the old UFC - they'd actually been in a whole bunch of knock down, drag out, grapple in the dust fights.

And if I'm handicapping a parking lot brawl between a bouncer at a biker bar and a trained martial artist with a nice haircut and smooth, uncalloused hands, I'm going to give the bouncer some serious consideration even if he's "uneducated." I'm also going to make sure I'm a safe distance away and don't make direct eye contact with anybody.

If you want to run fast, there's no substitute for getting out there and running. If you want to write novels, there's no substitute for putting the pen to the paper. If you want to play chess well, play chess, don't just read chess books or solve chess problems. And if you want to win fights, I humbly suggest you start getting in fights.

Perhaps this is just the New Jersey in me talking, but it seems like a good baseline to make sure we're talking about the same level of practical experience before we delve into the +/- of particular courses of study.

Only when we're comparing people who've had roughly the same amount of fighting experience, I think, can we come to meaningful conclusions about the practical value of martial arts. Just controlling for size or level of physical fitness doesn't seem nearly good enough.

For the record, I think both Karatetricker and Skoorb are very nice people.



To get back to the original debate, Shinken touched on something that I feel is quite important when talking about female self defense classes. Taking a self defense class can possibly increase a woman's self confidence quite much. Even though she shouldn't be walking through dark alleyways anyway, feeling confident while out on the town at night is something that can increase her quality of life greatly. Most of the time, a woman won't get assaulted, so what's the point in living in fear of it all the time? Easier said than done, yes, and caution should still be taken (avoiding alleys and such), but if a few classes of "worthless" self defense can raise a woman's confidence that much, I say go for it.

I have never taken a self defense class, but I have learned a lot from "sparring" with my bodybuilder husband.

1) No matter how hard I can punch, or how strong I am, I cannot overpower him

2) Never get close enough to him to let him grab a hold of me. The thought of trying to put him into an arm lock or wrist lock is ridiculous. He would grab a hold of me and sit on my head in an instant.

3) A good old kick in the groin and run like hell works. I would never do it to my husband, but a kick like that keeps me a good distance away.

4) The best think for self defense is to always be very well aware of your surroundings and who is near you, especially behind you.

5) At my height of six feet and my years of strength training, I can safely say that I am still not nearly as strong as a man. I don't care about woman's lib, this is a fact of life that I accept. I have learned how to defend myself very well, due to my sparring with the hubby. However, I might start winning for a short time because it is PLAY fighting and nothing more. I know darned well if he wanted to take me down, there would be a short struggle and I would be done for.

I do know I can lay a whooping on a guy, but chances are, I would lose in the end. If a man is pouncing you in dark allys, chances are, he has a gun or a knife. No self defense is really going to help the majority of victims. I'll probably get flamed for this, but it is only my opinion.

I do go wherever I want at night, but I walk with two Rottweilers and a Pit Bull. I do not have them for protection, but they are always aware of anyone long before I generally am, and notify me of their presense. Although they are useless for protection, nobody really wants to take that chance. I would sooner give someone what they wanted, rather then have my dogs come into harm's way any ways.

For the record, I think both Karatetricker and Skoorb are very nice people.


For the record, so do I. We just happen to have butt heads on two issues in a small time frame. My posts probably come off offensive, but they're not intended as such. I just enjoy debating.

For the record, so do I. We just happen to have butt heads on two issues in a small time frame. My posts probably come off offensive, but they're not intended as such. I just enjoy debating.Me too :tucool: :o

Today at work a female colleague was telling me about the female self defence class she had been to, run by the local Police. She explained some moves and demonstrated them on me. To be honest this alarmed me, I am not a large male (~5'8") and I'm not particularly strong, certainly not as strong as the average male, yet these moves posed no threat to me as a potential attacker. When she grabbed my wrist to twist it into a disabling position I was quite capable of not only halting the move, but reversing it on her (I didnt hurt her).

She giggled and said "it worked on the instructor". Is it not dangerous for these courses to give somebody a false sense of ability?

Adrian

Since I am probably the closest thing to an expert in this field on this board, I will weigh in on this. I have been a police officer for six years, and a security guard for five years prior to that. I am a currently certified instructor for PPCT, an arrest control discipline, and I am the arrest control instructor for my department.
I challenge all the males who posted in this thread to stop thinking about what it's like for YOU to get into a fight, and try thinking about what it would be like to get in a fight if you were a woman. Society has taught women to be passive and try to avoid confrontation. So it is difficult to even get a woman to THINK about having a confrontation, because all her instincts tell her to get the hell out of there (a valid reaction, to be sure). Furthermore, all women are well aware of the fact that they are physically inferior to men. Think about that the next time you get really aggressive pursuing a woman. She may be intimidated even by a supposedly "puny" guy.
Also, studies have shown that women who resist attackers have a higher chance not only of survival, but also of less injury and possible avoidance of rape.
Adeyman, I think this may surprise you. Since you are not a REAL attacker, you can only project what you think a real attacker is thinking. In reality, an attacker, and especially a rapist, wants the woman to freeze in panic. That makes his job MUCH easier. Have you ever tried to have sex with a woman who is screaming, yelling, hitting, squirming, and trying to knee you in the privates? It would be difficult, to say the least, and all the noise would certainly attract any potential good samaritans. Furthermore, even though rapists often threaten to kill the women they rape, very few are interested in raping a dead woman, so although the threat should not be taken lightly, I would still advocate resistance.
Finally, one of my co-workers teaches a class which I would recommend to women who are interested in self-defense. You can find more information at: http://www.rad-systems.com/
Having said all this, even though the class your friend attended seems like it might not work, I think that you should support your friend and put your male ego in the background on this issue. Anything that she might learn that could help her survive in a confrontational situation is worth the time and money. Even if all it really changes is her attitude towards survival.

5) At my height of six feet and my years of strength training, I can safely say that I am still not nearly as strong as a man. I don't care about woman's lib, this is a fact of life that I accept. I have learned how to defend myself very well, due to my sparring with the hubby. However, I might start winning for a short time because it is PLAY fighting and nothing more. I know darned well if he wanted to take me down, there would be a short struggle and I would be done for.

The James Bond ladies and all asian women seems to be handling it quite well in movies... :confused:

i think one of the most important things that martial arts / self-defense classes give to people is a sense of confidence. people don't tend to mess with people who aren't constantly in fear. women have a right to feel secure walking around in their city. i think it is rather sad that a woman would have to regain this security through taking a self-defense class! however, if the class helps, then more power to them.

in all, i think the self-defense class is positive, even if the moves may not work, it gives women a drive & confidence that they may not have had before & that's always a good thing. (ahhhh!! a martha stewart phrase right there!)

Yeah, and they look perfect when they get up in the morning too :p


The James Bond ladies and all asian women seems to be handling it quite well in movies... :confused: