Hey, I'm having a problem that I want fixed...I've made some goals for myself in august to be completed by november. I'm heading towards all of them except for my arm size. Since august, my arms have been 13 inch flexed size and right now they are exactly the same, 13 inch. I've gained inches on my shoulder/chest/thieghs and have lost some bodyfat too, but for some reason I can't get my arms to explode in size. My nutrution is good and I take creatine as well. I'm actually using more weights on my barbell and dumbells than before, yet my bicep doesnt feel bigger. My triceps are the same, in fact so is my forearm. It's really frusterating because I had a goal of 14 inch in 1 month and I know I can't do it now. I have some more longterm goals and I need this problem straightened out.

I workout using Max-OT, been doing it since Aug...and here is my arm routine. Please don't tell me it's genetics...I need to know how to gain some mass on these babies. I workout my arms on friday, so please, any tips and help to get my arms to grow would be appreciated, thanks!

Hammer Curl 2 x 40 lb dumbells
Dumbell Curl 2 x 40 lb dumbells
Concentration Curl 1 x 40 lb dumbell
Barbell curl 2 x 55 lb weights + 40 lb bar?
Wrist Curl 1 x 40 lb dumbell
Rev Wrist Curl 1 x15 lb dumbell

Seat tri extension 2 x 50 lb dumbell
Lying trii extension 2 x 50 lb bar

Now that I think of it, my triceps have grown some in mass but my bi's are lagging. Could it be that I do too many sets for them? I used to split bi's and tri's but this week I changed my schedule to do them both on Fri, therefore I can only hit them with 9 sets max. OK, so I'll let you guys tweak it. Thanks for your help!

That is a lot of bicep exercises compared to tris.... especially if you are concerned with arm size. Work your triceps more as they account for the majority of your upper arm. Arm size does come very very slow for a lot of people. I know it does for me. Right in my last month of bulking I'm happy just "seeing" (might be an artifact of poor measurement) 0.2 or so inches on my arms. From my experience and from my friends, once your arms reach a certain size, they develope kinda sluggishly size wise despite nice strength gains. I wouldn't give up hope. Keep training hard. Hit those tris hard!! They are secret to bigger arms.

that seems to be alot of sets for your biceps, as compared to your tri's, you should really work your tri's a bit more, as DeafNgari said

i dont see why you need dumbbell curls + barbell curls, unless your doing something special with the dumbbells, i dont think they do anything different
remember the bicep only has 2 heads, which can be hit with a barbell curl, then hammer curls or 1-arm preacher curls, so dont think that more = better

oh yeah, and keep working at it, the gains will come if you just stick to it, and keep lifting heavy (with good form, make sure your form is in check)

According your list of exercises, you are only doing 7 total sets. IMO, not enough sets. I would place barbell curls as the top of your list, and do 4 heavy sets. This exercise alone will put some size on your bi's. Follow it with seated outward DB curls, and then finish them off with hammer curls. Over the past 6 months, I have gained 1.25 inches on my arms, with the following routine:

Barbell Curl [4x6-8]
Seated Dumbbell Outward Bicep Curl [3x6-8]
Hammer Curls [3x6-8], or 21's every 5th week

And don't forget tri's. They are just as important as Bi's. Dips, skull crushers are great for tri's!

Tri's are a bigger muscle than bi's.

As everyone else said >>> Balance the two better, you're missing the big one.

For most people, if you want bigger arms, it means eating more and putting on more overall size. You're likely not going to add significant mass if you're undereating.

Also, are you squatting, deadlifting, and doing heavy (weighted) chins and dips? These should be staples of your workout if you want to add size to your arms, or anywhere.

:gl:

For most people, if you want bigger arms, it means eating more and putting on more overall size. You're likely not going to add significant mass if you're undereating.

Also, are you squatting, deadlifting, and doing heavy (weighted) chins and dips? These should be staples of your workout if you want to add size to your arms, or anywhere.

:gl:
What does squatting have to do with your arms?

I was able to gain a half inch on my arms in a month or so by doing 8x8's (http://www.fitren.com/res3artp.cfm?artid=90) I am also bulking, so I'm sure that had something to do with it as well. Can't grow without eating. Good luck!

jason

What does squatting have to do with your arms?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but squatting and deadlifting are the best exercises for upping your testosterone levels, which increases your ability to gain muscle mass everywhere.

When you lift, your body releases testosterone and other hormones into your bloodstream to activate muscle gain. The hormone doesn't just go to the muscles you lift with, it goes everywhere. Squatting and deadlifting are pretty much total body and hit your biggest muscles the hardest. Thus, they stimulate the release of much more hormone than just curls, or even bench presses. Compound exercises, like chins and dips, are better for this than isolation exercises, like curls, and, to a lesser extent, benching, but squats and deads are by far the best.

Your muscles will grow if you stimulate them, recover them, and feed them, true, but they'll grow a lot more if you foster a good hormonal balance, and nothing does that like squats and deads.

So lift with your legs, people!

What does squatting have to do with your arms? PeteBDawg nailed it. :tu:

Yeah, I do my leg exercises, and I've seen gains due to squats, DL, STDL, etc. So, to formulate a new plan, I'm gonna need to up the tri workout and lower the bi. Now, since I'm doing arms on 1 day, is that a max of 9 sets to both bi's and tri's?

Yeah, I do my leg exercises, and I've seen gains due to squats, DL, STDL, etc. Great, and what about the weighted chins and dips? I would make these the foundation of any arm-specific routine.

I've never done chins/dips...the only thing close is I do a cable pull-down for my lats on my back day. Would you recommend adding these tomorrow when I do my arms, or should I do them when I do my chest and back?

Either way would work. For now, I'd start by doing them on chest/back day, because they're compound exercises that will work a lot more than just your arms. Plus you can still have your arm day.

The only caveat I'd throw in is to try and space out chest and back as far away from arm day (and vice-versa) as possible. If you're too sore and not recovering between the workouts, move them to arm day.

:gl:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but squatting and deadlifting are the best exercises for upping your testosterone levels, which increases your ability to gain muscle mass everywhere.

When you lift, your body releases testosterone and other hormones into your bloodstream to activate muscle gain. The hormone doesn't just go to the muscles you lift with, it goes everywhere. Squatting and deadlifting are pretty much total body and hit your biggest muscles the hardest. Thus, they stimulate the release of much more hormone than just curls, or even bench presses. Compound exercises, like chins and dips, are better for this than isolation exercises, like curls, and, to a lesser extent, benching, but squats and deads are by far the best.

Your muscles will grow if you stimulate them, recover them, and feed them, true, but they'll grow a lot more if you foster a good hormonal balance, and nothing does that like squats and deads.

So lift with your legs, people!
You are wrong. There is no good research showing that squats cause a significant systematic increase in testosterone. However, squats will increase the leg muscles sensitivity to adrogrens and intracellular growth factor. Said another way, squats will make your legs bigger, but it will not grow other muslces that are uninvolved in the movement.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/280/3/E383#SEC2

You are wrong. There is no good research showing that squats cause a significant systematic increase in testosterone. However, squats will increase the leg muscles sensitivity to adrogrens and intracellular growth factor. Said another way, squats will make your legs bigger, but it will not grow other muslces that are uninvolved in the movement.

I may not be able to find good research supporting such theories, but let's just say that when I started incorporating squats and deads into my routine, keeping the same nutrition and rest protocols and only swapping exercises, I noticed dramatic changes all over my body, not just in my legs.

By swapping exercises I mean:

OLD ROUTINE FOR QUADS:
Leg Press & Leg Extensions

NEW ROUTINE FOR QUADS:
Squats & Leg Press

According your list of exercises, you are only doing 7 total sets. IMO, not enough sets. I would place barbell curls as the top of your list, and do 4 heavy sets. This exercise alone will put some size on your bi's. Follow it with seated outward DB curls, and then finish them off with hammer curls. Over the past 6 months, I have gained 1.25 inches on my arms, with the following routine:

Barbell Curl [4x6-8]
Seated Dumbbell Outward Bicep Curl [3x6-8]
Hammer Curls [3x6-8], or 21's every 5th week

And don't forget tri's. They are just as important as Bi's. Dips, skull crushers are great for tri's!

If such a routine is effective for biceps then what is effective for the triceps, being a larger muscle? 15 sets? Then what about back, 20 sets?

I'm not trying to flame at all (please don't take it that way!!), just trying to understand another opinion/theory/technique on training. Obviously your routine has worked for you (great progress by the way!), but high volume has never worked for me (I am getting good results from 4-5 working sets on biceps).

Having a dedicated arm day makes for a lot of arm work. It is possible you are doing too much. Are you doing compund exercises in your other workouts that work your arms too?

You are wrong. There is no good research showing that squats cause a significant systematic increase in testosterone. It's growth hormone that is increased when you use such a percentage of your total muscle mass. I saw a significant change in my arms when I started squats and deads last year. (Sadly, no training partner or cage at my current gym).

As for yor arms, try low-rows, bent-over rows, pull-ups, and any other compound pulling exercise you can think of. Isolation exercises for the bicep only stimulate a small percentage of your total muscle mass.

Andrew.

I may not be able to find good research supporting such theories, but let's just say that when I started incorporating squats and deads into my routine, keeping the same nutrition and rest protocols and only swapping exercises, I noticed dramatic changes all over my body, not just in my legs.

By swapping exercises I mean:

OLD ROUTINE FOR QUADS:
Leg Press & Leg Extensions

NEW ROUTINE FOR QUADS:
Squats & Leg Press
Exactly. It may be only anecdotal evidence now, but if we waited for studies to confirm everything we do in the gym, especially when people are seeing real-world results, it's likely no one would be getting anywhere. :tu:

Look what came in the mail today just in time for my new workout routine :D

http://bodybuilding.com/store/grizfbelt2.jpg

I am pretty stooked.

Looks like a swing...does your girl friend know you bought one ? :p

Looks like a swing...does your girl friend know you bought one ? :p

Naw I am flying solo right now.... :o :o :o

Right, actually my schedule doens't have a chest/back day but splits them into separate days...

Mon: Legs
Tue: Back
Wed: Chest
Thur: Shoulder/abs
Fri: Arms

Before I used to have a chest/tri day and thats when I noticed gains on my tris. Practially all my exercises are compound exercises, I do follow Max-OT to that extent. The only isolation exercises I can think of are for obliques and the rear delt that I add in, and I guess wrist curls. Aside from those, I'm doing compound movements. I really don't feel like doing chins or dips tomorrow since my chest is sore from yesterday, so I'll add them into next week.

As for tomorrow, I'm thinking of doing my arms by doing 5 sets on the tris, 4 on the bis, splitting them into these exercises...tell me what you think.

Lying tri ext 3 sets
Seat Tri ext 2 sets
Barbell Curl 2 sets
Hammer Curl 2 sets

How would that do? I would like to work my forearm too, but I don't want to overwork my arms. Is 9 sets enough, too little or too much? Thanks

ethan: If your arms are a lagging body part, I suggest you train them early in the week after your day off so you are mentally fresh. Also, you may be over doing your bi's and paying less attention to the arm mass king - the tri's (as some here already pointed out). If you do Max-OT and do bi's and tri's on the same day, my workout plan goes something like this and it worked great for me. My arms have improved tremendously.

1. tri pressdowns 2 sets
2. barcurls 2 sets
3. lying tri extentions (skulls) 2 sets
4. alternating db curls 2 sets
5. seated tri extentions 1 set
6. hammer curls 1 set

So 5 heavy sets for each part after warmups all of which till failure and at max intensity. Notice I start with tri's (because it's the bigger muscle and should get priority) and proceed to the bi's in order to keep intensity levels high for both parts since intensity levels taper off as your workout goes along. With Max-OT, intesity is key, not volume so I make sure I don't work 1 muscle first and then start on the other. I truly believe that you can workout long or you can workout hard but you can't do both at the same time. So keep it short and intense and you'll grow.

In addition, I also do leaning forward dips on chest day and chinups on back day to get in some indirect work.

I may not be able to find good research supporting such theories, but let's just say that when I started incorporating squats and deads into my routine, keeping the same nutrition and rest protocols and only swapping exercises, I noticed dramatic changes all over my body, not just in my legs.

Well, that's fine. You don't need to believe in something that is true(reliable and repeatable) to make it true. I'm guessing that none of you guys who are saying it doesn't matter even bothered to read the study or look at the results of the testosterone and growth hormone analysis. I'm not saying squats and deads are bad exercises, in fact I like squats a lot as a leg exercise.

not meaning to steal the thread but what do you die hard believers in deads think about clean and press? im thinking about adding them to my routine

Well, that's fine. You don't need to believe in something that is true(reliable and repeatable) to make it true. I'm guessing that none of you guys who are saying it doesn't matter even bothered to read the study or look at the results of the testosterone and growth hormone analysis. I'm not saying squats and deads are bad exercises, in fact I like squats a lot as a leg exercise.

Sigh. I was just stating what is true for me, believe it or not. I wasn't trying to be rude, and I hope that you're not either. I like JSF Forums because I don't usually run into such situations. If I came off rude I apologize.

If such a routine is effective for biceps then what is effective for the triceps, being a larger muscle? 15 sets? Then what about back, 20 sets?

I'm not trying to flame at all (please don't take it that way!!), just trying to understand another opinion/theory/technique on training. Obviously your routine has worked for you (great progress by the way!), but high volume has never worked for me (I am getting good results from 4-5 working sets on biceps).

15 - 20 sets, for any muscle, is much to much. I agree, high volume, for anyone, just doesn't build muscle. If you are able to perform 15 - 20 sets, you just are not going heavy enough. For tri's, I perform 9 sets. 3 sets of dips, skullcrushers & pressdowns. When I'm done, I'm spent. I do chest before tri's and they get a good warmup during chest... and I got the horse shoes to prove it. :D

15 - 20 sets, for any muscle, is much to much. I agree, high volume, for anyone, just doesn't build muscle. If you are able to perform 15 - 20 sets, you just are not going heavy enough. For tri's, I perform 9 sets. 3 sets of dips, skullcrushers & pressdowns. When I'm done, I'm spent. I do chest before tri's and they get a good warmup during chest... and I got the horse shoes to prove it. :D

Oh yeah that's more like it (IMO, sheesh I feel defensive now lol)!

9 sets is slightly more than me but I do remember a time when I was doing that many. I think that's about "middle volume" hehehe.

How are those dips working for ya? I need to switch up my tri routine actually; tried using a french press machine and while it hurts like hell I don't think it's really overloading so much, or something. Haven't seen the progress in the tris that I'd like to.

Is that you in your avatar???? :D

Oh yeah that's more like it (IMO, sheesh I feel defensive now lol)!

9 sets is slightly more than me but I do remember a time when I was doing that many. I think that's about "middle volume" hehehe.

How are those dips working for ya? I need to switch up my tri routine actually; tried using a french press machine and while it hurts like hell I don't think it's really overloading so much, or something. Haven't seen the progress in the tris that I'd like to.

Is that you in your avatar???? :D

Dips are working out great! I started doing them about 2 months ago. In a couple of weeks, I'll need to start doing weighted dips. I tried doing the variation dips for the lower chest, but I feel a pain in my shoulder. I have been trying to work on my core strength, body weight wise, and dips are just another exercise that I'm trying to conquer.

>>Is that you in your avatar???? No yet... :db:

Dips are working out great! I started doing them about 2 months ago. In a couple of weeks, I'll need to start doing weighted dips. I tried doing the variation dips for the lower chest, but I feel a pain in my shoulder. I have been trying to work on my core strength, body weight wise, and dips are just another exercise that I'm trying to conquer.

>>Is that you in your avatar???? No yet... :db:

Interesting, may have to switch to dips then. Always heard good things about them. Thanks for the reply!

(About the Avatar) Dude I was gonna say, if that's you, and you're natural, hook me up with your training and diet journal. :eek:

Well, that's fine. You don't need to believe in something that is true(reliable and repeatable) to make it true. I'm guessing that none of you guys who are saying it doesn't matter even bothered to read the study or look at the results of the testosterone and growth hormone analysis. I'm not saying squats and deads are bad exercises, in fact I like squats a lot as a leg exercise.

Check out the post below. If you were to try and present this reseach as unwavering fact to the people that are actually using different movements as a means of hormonal manipulation...you'd most likely get laughed right off of the web.
For every research paper that you find that states one thing...I can guarantee that you'll find at least one, that contridicts it. I've also included a list of some people who's work I've read on my own(there are others who's ideas I'm interested in that are not included here). My point...there are many, many, conflicting theories on training. Many of which have evidence and research to back them as well. Good read though. :tu:


Hormone manipulation training
Sean Sullivan

Everyone has a theory on reps sets and workout parameters. Most programs work, and all will stop working at some point. This is where the theory of micro cycles comes in. Frequent change in workout stimulus has been proven to make longer lasting gains and maximize results. There is one area that most programs fall short and that is hormonal manipulation. After all the most effective way to build muscle is to combine anabolic hormones and training. Any IFBB pro is proof positive of that. Manipulating hormones artificially and training to enhance the effects of those hormones creates a powerful synergy. But we as natural bodybuilders refuse to compromise and cross those boundaries, but does that condemn us to being small? NO! For every bodybuilding drug there is a corresponding hormone that is naturally produced by the body, and can be manipulated by your training. Finding a way to increase the secretion of your natural hormones is the second biggest factor in your program selection. Through careful manipulation of training variables you can increase various growth producing hormones and the corresponding receptors in your muscles that mediate their anabolic effects. Through careful manipulation of training stress you can convince your body to release each hormone at specific times, and increase receptor sites on the muscle itself. Interested? Read on. A “smart” training program will fulfill three necessities:
1) Provide enough stress to the muscle fibers to trigger repair and growth.
2) To increase the levels of various anabolic hormones.
3) Up regulate corresponding muscle receptors and get the most out of those anabolic effects.

Before we get into the nuts and bolts of the training design lets look at various forms of training and there affect on hormonal manipulation and the effect on the muscle receptor sites. Now these are not my ideas, I did not develop anything, and most of this is common knowledge to most of you. I am just here to link it all together, after all I am just a dumb cop with a degree in aviation science so what do I know? I know enough to look at the science behind the training theories and what corresponds to specific muscle building hormones and anabolic states.

First lets look at testosterone boosting and training. We know through endless research that testosterone, the holly grail of muscle building hormones, it triggered through specific training. That training consists of heavy movements, specifically heavy partial squats. This is not a 1/4 squat but to parallel or just short with a maximum poundage. Rep speed should be constant with a explosive acceleration. Forced reps are great to increase the intensity of the exercise as well. The workout also needs to be short, less than 45 minutes is best. Anything longer and testosterone levels will plummet rapidly! Testosterone boosting has long-lasting effects and the effects are compromised when too many workouts of this type are strung together too often and this is why the old 20 rep squat programs have short lasting results, but by manipulating this type of workout infrequently, say every six to eight days, you can maximize the effects. All high intensity training will increase your testosterone level to some degree, as long as the sessions are kept short. It will not be as potent as the testosterone boosting squat workout, but it will enable you to extend the effects of the workout as you focus on manipulating other hormones. If squats are out of the question then leg press or rack dead lifts can also fit the requirement, but squats are the king of testosterone boosting workouts, and yes ladies this means you too!

Negative only training has been shown to force the muscle to secrete insulin like growth factor 1 and fibroblast growth factor, tow powerful autocrine/paracrine anabolic hormones. This type of training causes extreme soreness and muscle trauma and again needs to be done infrequently. Sets need to be limited to 2-5 Negative only sets of 6-10 reps. That is a 10-15 second Negative with a 3-5 second pause between the reps. Between all sets stretch, and if you’re not familiar with Dante’s stretch protocols then I would research it. All other movements this training session should be heavy with a maximum stretch at the bottom and peak contraction at the top. Hold the top and bottom positions for 2-4 seconds. Again this training needs to be infrequent with 24-30 days between Negative only workouts for the same body parts.

Another training fact is growth hormone manipulation training. If you combine a heavy compound exercise with an explosive positive and slow Negative and a single-joint movement for the same muscle a pronounced GH releasing effects occurs. This superset will boost GH secretion and increase GH receptors on the trained muscle. The second exercise needs to be lighter and you should go for the burn. Reduce the range of motion as the muscle fatigues to optimize the burn. A superset of bench press done heavy with a 5-6 second Negative for 6-10 reps combined with cable crossovers done for 15-25 controlled reps and 4-5 partials or burns at the end would be an ideal chest combination. Only the combination of more GH secretion (the compound exercise) and increasing the GH receptors on the muscle (quick burns) will induce muscle growth.

Insulin depletion workouts followed by a high carb drink post training can maximize the insulin effect of muscle building. Insulin will shuttle carbs into one of two places, fat cells and muscle cells. By training to delete glycogen in the muscle and bring in as much blood as possible, then follow the session with a high GI carb drink you can better train the muscle to store carbs in the muscle and maximize the anabolic effects of insulin. Think about your carb depletion workout’s pre contest. They are designed to do just this, and then maximize the volume with carbs and shuttle the nutrients into the muscle cell. Why do we only do this precontest? Would it not be best to throw in a few of this type of workouts a week and harness the growth and recovery potential of insulin? Use a typical carb depletion workout of high rep, and short rest fast tempo workouts. Use non traumatic movements, cables and machines, and reduce the range to increase the pump and force more blood into the muscle. Follow the workout with a high-carb food or even better a high GI post workout shake. A hour or two after training take in another high carb meal.

Muscle tension will rapidly increase the number of androgen receptors on the trained muscle and negate the effect of the cortisol receptors. By increasing muscle tension, and decreasing fiber trauma you can harness the power of the secreted testosterone, IGF 1 and GH in the muscle. The reduced fiber trauma will decrease cortisol production and receptors as the training induces fiber growth. This workout would be the opposite of the Negative only workouts. You want to accentuate the positive part of the movement and negate the negative effect. The Negative workout will maximize trauma, but this workout is designed to minimize it. Movements need to be done with a 4-6 second positive, and a 2-second pause at the top and bottom and a 1-2 second Negative. Train strictly and keep the muscle under tension for as long as possible, Use static holds at the end of each set to really increase the tension on the working set, and get a maximum contraction at the top of each rep. Use movements that have the greatest range of motion and peak contractions such as leg extension and hack squats for the quads. Avoid bouncing and too many sets as long workouts this will burden recovery and release cortisol.

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Check out the post below. If you were to try and present this reseach as unwavering fact to the people that are actually using different movements as a means of hormonal manipulation...you'd most likely get laughed right off of the web.
For every reseach paper that you find that states one thing...I can guarantee that you'll find at least one, that contridicts it. I've also included a list of some people who's work I've read on my own(there are others who's ideas I'm interested in that are not included here). My point...there are many, many, conflicting theories on training. Many of which have evidence and research to back them as well. Good read though. :tu:

I highly doubt you will find any peer reviewed research that contradicts what I have said given that my statement has proven reliable and repeatable, but if you do, feel free to post it up and I will read it. There is a difference between peer reviewed research\controlled studies and a theory. Sullivan's summary of his research does not change the fact that SYSTEMATIC test and growth hormone manipulation is not been proven repeatable, reliable, or significant in level or duration. The key words in that last sentence are systematic and significant. It has been proven that growth hormone levels rise in response to mechanical loading and that androgen sensitivity(not increased androgen production) is improved as well, but that is limited to the muscle that has been worked/damaged. The fact that you readily admit that these effects are not repeatable brings into question your understanding of cause and effect relationships. You better be able to offer an explanation why study results disagree or you should discard or modify your previous hypothesis. Surely you understand that because someone says something is true, it doesn't mean it is true. For something to be true, it has to occur repeatably and reliably.

As far as being laughed off the web, laugh away. :lol:

I highly doubt you will find any peer reviewed research that contradicts what I have said given that my statement has proven reliable and repeatable, but if you do, feel free to post it up and I will read it. There is a difference between peer reviewed research\controlled studies and a theory. Sullivan's summary of his research does not change the fact that SYSTEMATIC test and growth hormone manipulation is not been proven repeatable, reliable, or significant in level or duration. The key words in that last sentence are systematic and significant. It has been proven that growth hormone levels rise in response to mechanical loading and that androgen sensitivity(not increased androgen production) is improved as well, but that is limited to the muscle that has been worked/damaged. The fact that you readily admit that these effects are not repeatable brings into question your understanding of cause and effect relationships.You better be able to offer an explanation why study results disagree or you should discard or modify your previous hypothesis. Surely you understand that because someone says something is true, it doesn't mean it is true. For something to be true, it has to occur repeatably and reliably.

As far as being laughed off the web, laugh away. :lol:

I bolded your statement above, only because I don't recall making any hypothesis, and I didn't readily admit anything...Perhaps you could show me this? I'll copy past it to make it easier for you to find..."Check out the post below. If you were to try and present this reseach as unwavering fact to the people that are actually using different movements as a means of hormonal manipulation...you'd most likely get laughed right off of the web.
For every research paper that you find that states one thing...I can guarantee that you'll find at least one, that contridicts it. I've also included a list of some people who's work I've read on my own(there are others who's ideas I'm interested in that are not included here). My point...there are many, many, conflicting theories on training. Many of which have evidence and research to back them as well. Good read though." As far as laughing at anything...I could care what you've found through links from HST personally, as I know that this single piece of information isn't going to affect 95% of the population looking to improve their fitness level. I found it more amusing that you felt it necessary to throw it back in other members faces, that you found something proving them wrong. I was simply trying to point out that you may not want to hang your hat on any one research paper you happen to come across.
If you'd like we could take this up through PM's after I take my certification exam, when I have more time to be researching. Who knows...we might actually help each other?

just my two cents as a novice, after I started adding dips to my arms routine i was AMAZED at the growth of my arms in a months time. I'm talking visually right now, i'm measuring tomorrow so i'll let you know how that works out.

I realized early on that tris are the predominant muscle when you talk about arm size, i guess call it genetics by my tris see to respond VERY well to training and its where i've seen a whole load of improvement.

My arm routine goes something like this.

Hammer Curls: 5 sets, 4x40lbs
Incline Curls: 5 sets 4x40lbs
Barbell Curls: 5 sets 4x70lbs (maxed out at 100lbs for 1 rep :o )
(alternating weeks in for Barbell Curls) Cable Curls 5 sets 5x110lbs.

Dips: 5 sets 4 reps each (unweighted)
Triceps Extension : 5 sets 4x65lbs
(alternating weeks with Extensions) One Arm Tricep extension: 5 sets 4x 30lbs.
One arm Pushdowns: 5 sets 4x70lbs.

every 4 weeks or so I switch it up cuz i get bored.

As far as laughing at anything...I could care what you've found through links from HST personally, as I know that this single piece of information isn't going to affect 95% of the population looking to improve their fitness level. I found it more amusing that you felt it necessary to throw it back in other members faces, that you found something proving them wrong. I was simply trying to point out that you may not want to hang your hat on any one research paper you happen to come across.
If you'd like we could take this up through PM's after I take my certification exam, when I have more time to be researching. Who knows...we might actually help each other?I must of misunderstood your point then. Maybe you agree with me? I guess I don't know why you would need to warn me about getting laughed at, but I'm a big boy and I'll get over it. I know that many people are going to disagree with me. NaturalofCourse actually sent me that write up by Sullivan about a month or two ago, and we had a brief discussion about it.

About me rubbing anything in anybody's face, I made a statement and I backed it up because I don't think anyone should take my word for it. Maybe 95% of people don't care if squats don't boost serum test or gh, but I figured a higher percentage of the people that post here in this specific forum would be interested. I realize that one study will not answer every question, how many studies would you like to see?

If you want to post or send me any studies later I wouldn't mind at all.

To be honest, I can't say what my feelings are on the whole subject, only because I haven't had the time or inclination to research it. I was refering more to how Sully, and alot of people who respect his status, and experience, would respond to that particular study. I hold all of those people in highest regard, for what they've accomplished drug free.
I personally, would be hesitant to make any type of statement leaning towards "There is only this, and nothing else." Only because it's asking to have somebody prove otherwise, and can lead to a breakdown in the overall feeling of fellowship in any forum. Besides...I don't like to leave myself open to a possible hostile retort.

not meaning to steal the thread but what do you die hard believers in deads think about clean and press? im thinking about adding them to my routine

Olympic lifts! They are awesome. They are great for strength and explosiveness. I'm not sure about size, but with the right diet everybody will gain size. I can't do most O-lifts because I'm 6'5" and my basement is 6'8" high. I would if I could.

This forum is pretty light on O-lift information. I would say that most people have not hit that stage of development yet. They are tough lifts to do and you really have to learn great form or you can get injured.

seems like a better full compound exercise to me thanx ofr the reply though i got forgotten lol :tu:

Definitely get weighted pullups (over hand wide grip) and weighted dips into the routine, going for 5 or 6, 5 reps on pullups, 3 on dips.

All my life I was stuck at 13", I started using heavier weights, 1g protein for each pound of body weight, incorporated hamercurls and suddenly (1 1/2 years) I got definition and 15" -I'm 45 and tickled.

I think the key was really stressing my body with the heavy weights and the protein. I like pullups and dips, to me if you can't move your body around what's the sense and they use so many muscles. Don't get me wrong, I like weights too, but being an ex-Military guy I stick with the basics.

Ok fratomdev, so am i using the dip thing for my chest and pullup for my back? I just wanna make sure I do the right ones this week. When you talk about the dip, it's supposed to aim more towards my chest right? And for the pullup, I should be using my total bodyweight and not just pulling down on the lat machine right?

Ok fratomdev, so am i using the dip thing for my chest and pullup for my back? I just wanna make sure I do the right ones this week. When you talk about the dip, it's supposed to aim more towards my chest right? And for the pullup, I should be using my total bodyweight and not just pulling down on the lat machine right?

He is talking about using a dip belt to add extra weight once your body weight isn't enough... at least that is how I read it.

Try this and see if it helps your arm size:

Load a barbell with a weight that you can do 10 reps in good form, then take 10 lbs off of it. Now get ready to curl it, stand erect, anchor your elbows firmly against your sides. lean forward slightly, look down at your hands, curl the bar smoothly and slowly, don't move your head.

Pause in the top position, keep your hands on the bar in front of your torso as opposed to over your elbows. Lower the bar slowly and smoothly, each rep takes 3 seconds up and 3 seconds going down. You are aiming for ten reps, you might be able to do only 6 reps.

When you hit the wall, loosen form, let your elbows go out and back. Get the bar up and focus on lowering it slowly. You should get one rep try for another. If you have to cheat by leaning forward and swinging bar up, then lower slowly. Try to get one more, a helper might assist you on this one, get it up then lower it to a half-way point and hold it for 4-5 seconds. That is it, you don't need another set. go to triceps and rest

Triceps - load up one dumbell with a weight that you can do an extension holding DB in two hands for about 8 reps, lowering behind head while standing. Do exercise slowly and smoothly with a 3 second count up and 3 second down movement. After one set move to dip bars with no rest.

Next do 8-12 reps of dips, negative only for one set. From up position lower yourself slowly. Climb back up and continue slowly and smoothly. Keep your face and mouth relaxed.

Do this twice a week and see if less is better.

As a bump to my last post, because I felt it was important, Please report back if any tried this arm routine. I would like to hear how it effected yours arms.

As a bump to my last post, because I felt it was important, Please report back if any tried this arm routine. I would like to hear how it effected yours arms.

I might give it a whirl when I get to bicep day (friday) since I am putting a new program together.

Just wanted to subscribe to this, my arms have been stuck between 14 and 14.5 depending if I'm trying to cut or bulk, I want them to be between 16 and 17. I'm 5'9" 165lbs right now.