Hi all.
I've checked the John Stone training program, as well as the Body-For-Life program (which is similar). According to both sources, warming up is performed by lifting light weights (First set in pyramid program). Is it correct? Isn't it supposed to start by doing some aerobics and stretching?

Thanks in advance.

Hi all.
I've checked the John Stone training program, as well as the Body-For-Life program (which is similar). According to both sources, warming up is performed by lifting light weights (First set in pyramid program). Is it correct? Isn't it supposed to start by doing some aerobics and stretching?


I think the best answer is, yes, do both.

Warming up is intended to increase performance and reduce the likelyhood of injury. The "warm-up" sets referred to, for example, in the MAX-OT training program are warming up individual muscle groups in preparation for increased stress.

Warming up before a work out with stretching or cardio prepares the entire body to work.

Regarding stretching, what stretches are recommended for "obese" person, like myself? Touch toes, jumping jacks, etc? It has been a loooong time since I worked out, so any info is appreciated.

On my weight training days, i do a 25 minute walk to the gym and then 15 minutes on the treadmill at 7 kilometres per hour random incline to warm up.

cheers

Stretching and warming up are different things.

Warming up means getting your heartrate up a bit and getting blood flowing to the muscles you're about to use. This applies to everything from brisk walking prior to a jog all the way to doing some light pyramid sets with weights as you prepare to do your "work sets" (sets where the weight is actually near or at your max for that muscle group).

Stretching is exactly what it sounds like - stretching the muscles you've been working. Contrary to what you see in movies and such, stretching should be done AFTER or DURING your workout, not before. The reason is this:

You're trying to keep your muscles from binding up and cramping on you. Your muscles are warm and elastic after a workout and are far more receptive to stretching. Stretching beforehand is basically a waste of time.

My recommendations for stretching:

1) Stretch for EVERY muscle group you work out that day.
2) Stretch like you mean it, but not like you mean to hurt yourself - i.e. not to the point of pain, but definitely to the point where you have to exert yourself to hold it for a full 60 seconds.
3) HOLD your stretches, don't "bounce" them. Your movements should be slow and steady getting into your full stretch position. NEVER bob up and down.
4) For cardio, just stretch when you're finished, making sure to hit each muscle group with at least a full minute of stretches.
5) For weights, stretch between exercises to save time.

Contrary to what you see in movies and such, stretching should be done AFTER or DURING your workout, not before.

HUGE bump to this; great post funtax.

So you're saying you shouldn't stretch at all before lifting weights? Hmm.

According to you guys I'm wasting my time, but for me personally, before I lift I like to stretch all my muscles out a bit. Not the long, deep stretches that I'll do during or after workout, but just enough to loosen them up and get rid of the tightness. They don't take long, and I can even get started while I'm doing my 5-10 minute warmup on the treadmill. To each his own I guess.

I'm with Jeremy here. I've never heard NOT to stretch beforehand.

Contrary to what you see in movies and such, stretching should be done AFTER or DURING your workout, not before.


I thought this was pretty much common knowledge. No?

I don't know anything bad about stretching before lifting or cardio, but I'm pretty sure there's (almost) nothing good about it. Doesn't help you in lifting or cardio.

I have never stretched or warmed up in over 50 years of training. I have never been injured in training. Will it hurt you? No. Will it help you? Don't know never done it or seen the need to.

If you are lifting heavy weights, the first three or so reps is a warmup.:tucool:

Static stretching has been shown to reduce strength performance prior to a training session. It should be done postworkout or any other time during the day.

Alot of coachs now use dynamic stretching pre-workout.

That's what i do. :)

So you're saying you shouldn't stretch at all before lifting weights?

Yeah, recent research basically shows that stretching has little if any value ever. This surprised everybody, but there you have it.

The risks of stretching are bigger when you do it before you are warmed up, so the current recommendation seems to be:

1. Don't bother stretching.

2. If you want to stretch, don't do it cold.

And yeah, this is completely different from what everyone was taught for decades.

General format for any exercise session:

1. general warm-up: full body activity that gets the heart rate up
2. dynamic stretches and mobility work: gradually move joints through their full range of motion
3. specific warm-up: exercise performed at a reduced intensity
4. workout: exercises performed at full intensity
5. cool down: full body activity that circulates blood and lets heart rate gradually come down
6. static stretching: joints moved to maximum range of motion and held

This doesn't mean that you have to do each of these each session, but if you want to do one then you know where in the workout to do it.

Well, I'm not going to argue with Canada, rtestes, chicanerous, and Zen.

I typically jump on the bike or treadmill for 5 minutes, stretch, then lift. There's no issues with the 5 minute light cardio to get the muscles warm, right?

I thought this was pretty much common knowledge. No?

I don't know anything bad about stretching before lifting or cardio, but I'm pretty sure there's (almost) nothing good about it. Doesn't help you in lifting or cardio.

From here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16778543&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum):

Pre-exercise stretching (PES) has been common practice prior to participation in athletic events. Despite evidence for lack of benefit, many coaches continue to routinely instruct and prescribe stretching. This study assesses the knowledge, attitudes and practices of high school coaches regarding PES.

And this one (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16284645&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum):

Conclusions: The data on stretching and muscle soreness indicate that, on average, individuals will observe a reduction in soreness of less than 2 mm on a 100-mm scale during the 72 hours after exercise. With respect to risk of injury, the combined risk reduction of 5% indicates that the stretching protocols used in these studies do not meaningfully reduce lower extremity injury risk of army recruits undergoing military training.

For warming up (and not just stretching) we have this one (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16679062&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum):

Five studies, all of high quality (7-9 (mean=8) out of 11) reported sufficient data (quality score>7) on the effects of warming up on reducing injury risk in humans. Three of the studies found that performing a warm-up prior to performance significantly reduced the injury risk, and the other two studies found that warming up was not effective in significantly reducing the number of injuries. CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine warm-up prior to physical activity to prevent injury among sports participants. However, the weight of evidence is in favour of a decreased risk of injury.

My stretching varies depending on how I am lifting. If I am lifting in the 8+ reps range, I just jump right in and start the workout cold. If I am doing heavy work, say in the 4-6 rep range, I like to do a warm up set of 10+ reps first and that counts as my stretch.


Jason

I do between 5-10 minutes on cardio. To get the blood flowing and open up the capillaries. Then I stretch the major muscle groups for about another 5 minutes. When you stretch, hold the stretch for a 10 count.

Then for warm up lifts I generally start very light and do 8 reps. Add some weight do 6 then add a bit more and do 4, then a bit more and do 4 more reps. Then I jump up to my heavy weights and do my 4x4's or whatever routine Im doing.

This usually helps me quite abit.

Yeah, recent research basically shows that stretching has little if any value ever. This surprised everybody, but there you have it.

The risks of stretching are bigger when you do it before you are warmed up, so the current recommendation seems to be:

1. Don't bother stretching.

2. If you want to stretch, don't do it cold.

And yeah, this is completely different from what everyone was taught for decades.

There HAS to be something wrong with recent research, then. I'm not sure what the method was, but stretching definitely doesn't have "Little if any" value. I suspect it's true that what most people consider stretching has little if any value, but I find that full-body stretching after a workout, spending at least 30s on each stretch, is hugely beneficial to me personally.

Also, some of my back pain was identified as being related to flexibility imbalances in my leg and hip muscles, and stretching often has helped reduce the pain.

I second don't stretch cold, but I reject don't stretch at all.

Does this research say that you shouldn't stretch before running? Just go and start sprinting down the road? I can't imagine that can't lead to injury.

If you guys are familiar with, or have heard of Dogg Crap training, you're in for a shock if you try the extreme DC style static strectches. Not only will they cause muscle trauma, but the ensuing hypertrophy as well. Some of these stretches are more difficult than the actual training. I've never tried DC training but I'v done the stretches and I was quite surprised and impressed with the results.

As an example, the sissy squat stretch is amazingly brutal. Take a plate, hold it against your chest and descend into a sissy squat and hold for as long as possible. After a short while you'll begin to quiver and shake like a bowl of jello. The trick is to hold beyond that and increase the time for the stretch with each week. I eventually began doing them on the hack squat machine, and within a few weeks my teardrops took on a whole different dimension. Or at least I thought so...:confused:

Does this research say that you shouldn't stretch before running? Just go and start sprinting down the road? I can't imagine that can't lead to injury.

I run 2-3 times a week (been doing so off and on for about 3 years). I've never stretched and so far I haven't been injured. I haven't seen any studies on this though.

As an example, the sissy squat stretch is amazingly brutal. Take a plate, hold it against your chest and descend into a sissy squat and hold for as long as possible. After a short while you'll begin to quiver and shake like a bowl of jello. The trick is to hold beyond that and increase the time for the stretch with each week. I eventually began doing them on the hack squat machine, and within a few weeks my teardrops took on a whole different dimension. Or at least I thought so...:confused:

Sissy squat themselves are an eye opening (or popping) experience! I need to work those back in at some point. They can be brutal done to high reps.

If you guys are familiar with, or have heard of Dogg Crap training, you're in for a shock if you try the extreme DC style static strectches. Not only will they cause muscle trauma, but the ensuing hypertrophy as well. Some of these stretches are more difficult than the actual training. I've never tried DC training but I'v done the stretches and I was quite surprised and impressed with the results.

As an example, the sissy squat stretch is amazingly brutal. Take a plate, hold it against your chest and descend into a sissy squat and hold for as long as possible. After a short while you'll begin to quiver and shake like a bowl of jello. The trick is to hold beyond that and increase the time for the stretch with each week. I eventually began doing them on the hack squat machine, and within a few weeks my teardrops took on a whole different dimension. Or at least I thought so...:confused:

Mast,..
Would you have any enlightening thoughts on the DC training. I recently ran across that, and haven't checked into it much yet, but see it recommended, strongly, that only well trained lifters take on the challenge, as it's over the top in terms of needed preparation, intensity, and recovery.

Thanks much,...>>>--->

Yeah, recent research basically shows that stretching has little if any value ever. This surprised everybody, but there you have it.

The risks of stretching are bigger when you do it before you are warmed up, so the current recommendation seems to be:

1. Don't bother stretching.

2. If you want to stretch, don't do it cold.

And yeah, this is completely different from what everyone was taught for decades.


Static passive stretching can be done cold if desired.

If you guys are familiar with, or have heard of Dogg Crap training, you're in for a shock if you try the extreme DC style static strectches. Not only will they cause muscle trauma, but the ensuing hypertrophy as well. Some of these stretches are more difficult than the actual training. I've never tried DC training but I'v done the stretches and I was quite surprised and impressed with the results.

As an example, the sissy squat stretch is amazingly brutal. Take a plate, hold it against your chest and descend into a sissy squat and hold for as long as possible. After a short while you'll begin to quiver and shake like a bowl of jello. The trick is to hold beyond that and increase the time for the stretch with each week. I eventually began doing them on the hack squat machine, and within a few weeks my teardrops took on a whole different dimension. Or at least I thought so...:confused:
That's a static active stretch, mast, which is similar to an isometric stretch. These stretches build strength at a specific point in a ROM and (as you've seen) can cause hypertrophy (as well as some major DOMS :eek:) as well as increase flexibility.

As a general rule, as with a passive stretch, you should not perform active or isometric stretches prior to or during your workout if you're training to gain flexibility. This is because all static stretches have the potential to negatively impact your performance by inhibiting the stretch reflex. In addition, active and isometric stretches have the added bonus that you fatigue your muscles through a prolonged or series of intense muscular contractions.

In the case of Dogg Crap, the function of the stretches included is to increase strength and cause hypertrophy, so, for this use, it's perfectly reasonable to perform them during the workout.

All static stretches (active, passive, isometric) have the potential to inhibit your ability to perform at your best.

DC stretches are performed immediately AFTER you've destroyed a particular bodypart, so performance is not inhibited. If they were done BEFORE, then yes, I agree that they'd defeat the purpose.

BTW, these stretches actually decrease DOMS. ;)

Why did I have a sixth sense that you were going to edit your post before I responded?

:rolleyes:

LOL

Mast,..
Would you have any enlightening thoughts on the DC training. I recently ran across that, and haven't checked into it much yet, but see it recommended, strongly, that only well trained lifters take on the challenge, as it's over the top in terms of needed preparation, intensity, and recovery.

Thanks much,...>>>--->

I don't recommend it for a variety of reasons, but I won't get into it since I feel it would be hijacking this thread.

Why did I have a sixth sense that you were going to edit your post before I responded?

:rolleyes:

LOL
:whistle: Yeah, with three minutes between posts the content has probably completely changed since you first read it. :lol:

Does this research say that you shouldn't stretch before running? Just go and start sprinting down the road? I can't imagine that can't lead to injury.
You'd warm-up before you start sprinting though.

Personally, I believe the studies that have found that stretching prior to activity doesn't decrease the rate of injury. This is not to say stretching isn't useful. Consistent stretching applied over the long term that results in an increase in flexibility is very important in decreasing the chance of injury.

I've observed the same thing as others -- that running without stretching has not resulted in injuries. I ran cross country, racing 5k's, for a couple years and only had some slight tendonitis when I increased training volume rapidly from nothing at the start of one of my seasons. I never had any other injuries. However, I always warmed up properly and did a series of stride runs before starting my workouts, which usually consisted of a couple miles worth of sprints and 3-8 miles of distance in total, and never ran on any surface that wasn't grass, wood chips, or dirt/mud.

If you're referring to stretching being needed to alleviate "tightness" in the muscles before you run, I disagree here as well. A long warm-up run (at a gradually increasing pace) followed by stride runs (basically a form of dynamic stretching) will completely unlock your muscles. Static stretching is not necessary and should be saved for post workout.

Static passive stretching can be done cold if desired.

It's no longer recommended.

Yeah, recent research basically shows that stretching has little if any value ever. This surprised everybody, but there you have it.


"Little value" as defined by what? Decreasing the risk of injury? Decreasing DOMS? Increasing flexibility and range of motion? There seem to be a number of different ways to evaluate the benefits of stretching -- so, it might be helpful if you explained what the dependent variable(s) were in the research.