I am working out with my friend this semester (I haven't lifted with him in over 9 months due to schedule conflicts) and we "share" our training thoughts to develop a routine. He insists on starting with seated dumbbell curls, doing 3 sets of 21s (7 1st half, 7 2nd half, 7 full movement). I must say it feels great, I just want to see if anyone knows of any negative effect of doing these every week. I used to throw in 21s once a month or so, but if it's not detrimental to do them weekly, then I'll keep them in.

I do arms twice a week. I do one day dedicated to arms on weekends. I always include seated 21's those days. I have yet to find them a detriment to my program. I never feel tighter after a workout than when I do barbell curls followed by 21's.

-R

Torque acting against the joint is different at the bottom and the top, so that's one advantage of them, but one possible disadvantage is that they take up a lot of time. If you're keeping the weight the same on each set and doing one set at the bottom half and one set at the top half, I'd have to wonder why not just do it all in one set and do the bottom and top at the same time? If you're cranking the weight up for the bottom, where it's easier, then I could see the benefit to heavier bottom sets.

These are killers...I'd be more inclined to throw em in every 2nd or 3rd w/o though. Look at it as kind of a "treat???" Isolation exercises are something I like to have 4-7 different ones that I can pick from, just to keep throwing something different at the body, to make it more difficult to adjust too.
I've got some arm exercises at home that I'll throw up, that'll have you scratching your head... :lol:

I've got some arm exercises at home that I'll throw up, that'll have you scratching your head... :lol:

Wouldn't it be better to say "...that'll have you not able to scratch your head" ?

:D

I don't really see the point in doing 21s unless you just want to be fatigued. Sure they're tough and they hurt a lot I guess, I just don't see the advantage over standard barbell curls.

If we conclude that the lower portion of the rep builds up a particular part of the arm better than the upper or middle portion of the rep, then I'd agree that a set of only doing that portion of the rep might be beneficial. Still, though, I do not necessarily think that such theories are valid. From my experience and reading most bicep SHAPE is determined by genetics (at least for us with average genetics and without needles); yes you can make them bigger but most of your "peak" and shape won't be able to be changed all that much. This is why a lot of people dismiss the notion of isolation, as a muscle isn't really capable of being completey isolated, even with advanced machines. Stress your upper pecks more with the incline bench, sure, maybe, I think (?).

But are we talking about doing 21s for some other reason? For some reason concentrating only on certain portions of the rep might be more beneficial overall? Maybe! I don't know ... Interesting.

Since they ARE popular why don't we hear about 21s with other exercises, like the bench press, the cable pushdown, or even rowing exercises? I never thought of that until now.

I'm not saying they aren't effective! Don't get me wrong. Actually I'm looking for more opinions because I simply don't know, and this is an interesting thread.

A week should be plenty of time to recover from a couple of sets of 21s. Might be good for muscle endurance? Might be good for the benefits of lactic acid accumulation and the anticatablic effects of high rep work. Too bad that pump only lasts for a couple of hours.

what exactly are '21s' and why are they different/better (or not) than bbell curls?

what exactly are '21s' and why are they different/better (or not) than bbell curls?

21s are as follows:

Take your standard dumbbell curl, if you break it down, there are two parts of the motion. The first being from your elbow being extended until it reaches about 90 degrees. Then, the second part of the motion is from the 90 degree point up the rest of the way.

What you do for 21s is 7 reps of only motion one. Then 7 reps starting from the end of motion one to the end of motion two. Then you do 7 reps of the entire movement.

I use db curls as an example, but they can, theoretically, be applied to several exercises. They just seem to be most popular in bicep exercises.



As for my question and your responses, it seems as though I will continue with them and see how I progress. :tu:

I do 4 sets of standing barbell, 4 sets of concentration db curls and then 2 sets of 21's every bicep exercise for the last 2 months (twice a week).... I've gained 1.5 in to my arms (even though I"m cutting)

I would finish up bi's with 21's, but do them once every 4 to 5 weeks. I see 21's as a way to shock the bi's from your normal routine.

When I say once every couple of week, perform 21's with heavy weight and strict form. If done properly, you should not be able to complete 21 reps on your third set.

I used to do 21's but I dropped them because they were taking too long, and it felt like they were giving me a great pump and tiring me out but nothing more than that. I still may be tempted to throw them in every couple of workouts just for the 'burn'.

I used to do 21's but I dropped them because they were taking too long, and it felt like they were giving me a great pump and tiring me out but nothing more than that. I still may be tempted to throw them in every couple of workouts just for the 'burn'.

Same here. They always made me get a burn but that's about it. Never grew any because of them, that I noticed.

You can do them with Skull Crushers, too. Just to balance everything out. Now, that makes for a LONG workout.

Since they ARE popular why don't we hear about 21s with other exercises, like the bench press, the cable pushdown, or even rowing exercises? I never thought of that until now.I have Ian King's "Get Buffed" book and all of those are included on a weekly basis. Of course, Ian King does some weird stuff, but he's known to be effective.

personally, I would never start a bicep workout with 21's. I stick to basic heavy compound movements such as barbell curls and alternating dumbell curls. To me, 21's fatigue the muscle and gives a good pump but that's not what I look for. I strive to overload the muscle with heavy weights and low reps with maximum intensity in full ROM. I don't bother with building parts of the biceps or shaping it - just build it bigger and everything will fall into place.

I found this article by Jeff Willet on 21's that might be of interest.

Click here. (http://www.ast-ss.com/dev/qa_search/full_text.asp?ID=1382)

I found this article by Jeff Willet on 21's that might be of interest.

Click here. (http://www.ast-ss.com/dev/qa_search/full_text.asp?ID=1382)


I hate the way that guy expresses himself.

I hate the way that guy expresses himself.
yes, he does come across quite bluntly in that particular article. he's one of the top natural bodybuilders and he writes great articles to help other trainees. At least he's willing to give advice and helps to save people time by sharing his experiences - "giving back", in a sense.

If you decide to continue the 21's, that's 100% your choice and everyone here can respect that. Maybe it'll work great for you and your training partner. I've been getting awsome results training with Max-OT and by following Jeff and Skip's advice/training journals. It's a "no matter what" type of thing - no matter what, if you train, eat nutritiously and get adequate rest, you WILL grow. Just don't quit!

personally, I would never start a bicep workout with 21's. I stick to basic heavy compound movements such as barbell curls and alternating dumbell curls. To me, 21's fatigue the muscle and gives a good pump but that's not what I look for. I strive to overload the muscle with heavy weights and low reps with maximum intensity in full ROM. I don't bother with building parts of the biceps or shaping it - just build it bigger and everything will fall into place.

BINGO!

yes, he does come across quite bluntly in that particular article. he's one of the top natural bodybuilders and he writes great articles to help other trainees. At least he's willing to give advice and helps to save people time by sharing his experiences - "giving back", in a sense.

If you decide to continue the 21's, that's 100% your choice and everyone here can respect that. Maybe it'll work great for you and your training partner. I've been getting awsome results training with Max-OT and by following Jeff and Skip's advice/training journals. It's a "no matter what" type of thing - no matter what, if you train, eat nutritiously and get adequate rest, you WILL grow. Just don't quit!

I used to not care for how Jeff Willet came across either until I read through his online training journal and talked to a friend of mine - my friend is getting ready for his first (natural) competition ever, and he emailed Jeff with a question, not sure if Jeff would reply. Believe it or not Jeff not only replied but he and my friend have been emailing back and forth and Jeff has really helped him with his routine and diet.

So it seems like Jeff might come across with some attitude but he does seem to be a nice guy.

So it seems like Jeff might come across with some attitude but he does seem to be a nice guy.

Nothing to do with being a nice guy, I'm sure he is. Just hate when people in the fitness world are so close-minded. And over at AST-SS, they are by far the worst with that. They always insists upon how "stupid" other training methods are, yet there are tons of people out there using these "stupid" methods with just as good or better physiques than those guys. Anyway, that's just my opinion. It's not to say that they don't have a lot of great info, they do. I just think they display it in a very distasteful manner.


But to go back on track here... I know what you guys mean by tiring yourself out early with 21s. My friend insists upon doing them first and I must say, I used to like ending with them when I threw them in. But we'll see, I'll stick with it for now and monitor my progress.

Nothing to do with being a nice guy, I'm sure he is. Just hate when people in the fitness world are so close-minded. And over at AST-SS, they are by far the worst with that. They always insists upon how "stupid" other training methods are, yet there are tons of people out there using these "stupid" methods with just as good or better physiques than those guys. Anyway, that's just my opinion. It's not to say that they don't have a lot of great info, they do. I just think they display it in a very distasteful manner.


That's true, but there are extenuating (sp!?) circumstances with that and every idea. I AM close minded on some bodybuilding issues, like the fact that, generally, overload equals growth. But then there are arguments as to what overload means - is it simply doing a heavy weight for 4-6 reps? Or is simply shortening the rest periods another aspect of overloading?

That particular point could easily go into 100 directions and we could have a 30 page thread here. :)

I've seen some that were much more close minded than this. Arthur Jones for example, who I actually agree with on most issues. But a lot of his articles were so much like this that they were really funny. Like that one, which I forgot where it came from, where he said something like "If you've never thrown up as the result of doing a set of curls, you don't know what hard work is!"

I know what you mean though, I have what I believe a good routine for me and it's working, but I do know people who do more volume and they look great. Then again I know people who work out once a week and eat candy all day and they're shredded too!

Anyway, what were talking about? :confused: