I know that there are more people than me who are quite annoyed by posts that reeks of bad grammar. Personally, I often refrain from answering posts that are just too bad. Lately, some posts has got me thinking though.

What is considered right or wrong when it comes to grammatical manners on the internet?

I understand when people who has english as a second or even third language miss some grammar, spelling or the like. It's not those kinds of mistakes that bugs me (heck, I can't even spell illegal (well, actually I can after being corrected)). The things that do bug me are things like this:

WRITING WITH CAPS LOCK ON.
Writing With A Capital Letter In Every Word.
missing all punctuation is this bad trying write like yoda talk not succeeding
WrItInG eVeRy SeCoNd LeTtEr In CaPiTaL (this is a big thing amongst the teenagers in Sweden, it couldn't bug me more).

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that comes to mind.

What got me thinking was a post where someone said that writing in all caps is considered yelling on the internet. Yelling when you're talking to someone isn't nice, right? So could the other things (and more) be considered bad manners, and justify not feeling like posting a reply?

I would like to hear other people's opinions on the matter. Should I grow up, stop whining and face the fact that people are different when it comes to writing, or am I right in demanding some grammatical skill when I reply to posts?

One ? is question, 2 ?'s has a little different meaning, but ???????????????? feels rude...
My brother is like How's it going?????????? Did you go fishing?????????? Did you find my jacket????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
When I read the thread topic I thought that you were commenting foreigners not 100% English... Which would include me... I was ready to tell you off. :lol:

I personally will not even read a post that is either ALL CAPS or constains no punctuation. If I can't read it without straining my eyes and/or brain (trying to decode terribly puncuated posts) , I don't. But that's just me.

I rarely capitilize any of my words except for "I". Hard habit to break, especially when typing emails at work.

Jason

When I read the thread topic I thought that you were commenting foreigners not 100% English... Which would include me... I was ready to tell you off. :lol:
That would be like bitching on myself, and I like me way too much to do that. :eek:

I do agree on the question marks. Totally. I use ?!? when I really want to emphasize a question, but that's it.
If I can't read it without straining my eyes and/or brain (trying to decode terribly puncuated posts) , I don't.
I'm thinking of adopting the same reasoning.

I usually ignore posts that are too hard to read, too long (or offer too much non-pertinent information), don't have a question, or ask too many questions.

As well, I think it's bad taste to reply to a post that isn't up to par if the reply only mocks or comments on the original post's grammar, spelling, or punctuation.

There is one forum that I occasionally frequent which does not allow posting in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. Unfortunately they way it filters this is by Changing Every First Letter To Uppercase. This is still extremely annoying. I do understand that I am above average in my writing skills, but I also understand that I am far from an expert. I do put an effort into everything I write though, be it an article intended for print, or simply a response to a post in a forum. I would hope other people realize that communication does not stop at the verbal level. Sadly many people do not realize this. I do have to wonder, someone that posts in one of your above mentioned annoying styles, what must they be like in person?

I understand when people who has english as a second or even third language miss some grammar, spelling or the like.

I was thinking of ignoring this post, since there is a grammatical error... :D

Ok, this post just cried out for a little grammar nazi, but I hear you completely. All Caps is usually ignorance of internet manners, but no caps and run on sentence is just poor writing. I've succumbed to using smilies and lol occasionaly, but some posts are so full of acronyms that it becomes difficult to read. I wonder how much of it is an age related thing -- if you've grown up writing like that, perhaps it seems correct.

I know that there are more people than me who are quite annoyed by posts that reeks of bad grammar. Personally, I often refrain from answering posts that are just too bad. Lately, some posts has got me thinking though.
Don't take my quote seriously, Knubb. I'm just giving you a hard time. I've highlighted your grammatical errors only to tell you that this kind of stuff doesn't bother me. Considering that you're in Sweden, your grammar is excellent.

What does bother me is the overuse of "b4" (before), "ne1" (anyone), "u" (you), etc. Those things make lots of sense with text messaging but with a full keyboard the time savings is negligible. I won't even finish reading a post if it's full of these shortcuts.

OTOH, the standard internet acronyms don't bother me at all.

What does bother me is the overuse of "b4" (before), "ne1" (anyone), "u" (you), etc. Those things make lots of sense with text messaging but with a full keyboard the time savings is negligible. I won't even finish reading a post if it's full of these shortcuts.I probably shouldn't say anything, but this thread touches on a subject that I've wanted to bring up for a long time.

I agree. I hate the use of all the shortcuts you mentioned.

You forgot one - the worst one: The use of "ur" instead of "you're" or "your". That "shortcut" really drives me nuts for some reason.

Saving a couple of keystrokes at the expense of looking like a dolt is never a good trade. Show a little respect for your reader and at least make an attempt at real English (or whatever language you're using). You'll get much better responses. I often receive emails similar this one:

"d00d, ur progres iz amazing!!1! i need sum hlp b/c no matter what i do my 6p wont show and i do lots of situps and stuff. somehow u have done what i am trying 2 do pls write back pls ahm desparate!!!!!!!!!!!!! ps im 26/m/230 pnd. thx again u r the man!!!!1!"

Guess where emails like that go? Sorry, but it's true. I can't read that crap without getting a headache. I often receive emails from people who speak English as a second language that are written using far better English skills than those who speak it natively. It's sad, really.

Good grammar is very important. Proper grammar demonstrates respect for your audience, and also that you are not a 8-year-old who found dad's vodka bottle sitting next to the family computer. Bad grammar is just flat out annoying and difficult to read. At least that's the way I see it.

well im going to be the odd woman out here. I find this whole thread to be very insulting and maybe even a bit discouraging to new members or those who use short cuts, abbreviations, etc simply because they are not the best at typing/spelling. I failed to indent and capitalize the first letter of this paragraph...does that somehow make me ignorant?

Its also sad to say that there are MANY (capitalization used to emphasize not yell) examples of bad grammar in some of the posts to this thread, i'm sure someone will find examples in my post as well. But I will not criticize anyone in particular.

the main thing that upset me about this thread is that it was posted simply because someone posted in all caps (im sure we all know which post was being refered to). Not only could this discourage the original poster of the thread written in caps, but the pure fact that this was even posted and participated in is very disheartening to new members who have not yet posted but are in the process of reading and gathering information. They may possibly be afraid to post simply for fear of being ridiculed for their typing/spelling abilities. And what about the member who this post originated from? do you think that he missed this post? probably not, and he was probably very insulted and maybe even a little hurt. This thread came off as a mockery and a way to subtly insult him. I wouldnt be suprised if he refrained from posting for a while.

I want to emphasize that this is a support forum. People join this forum to learn, encourage, and share their experiences so that we may all benefit. It is important to keep in mind that we all come from very different back grounds and not everyone is going to type/spell the same. some people will use "annoying" abbreviations simply because typing out every word would mean taking forever to post. My sister was a straight A student in high school and college, is extremely intelligent and even she cannot type to save her life. This does not make her ignorant or stupid. By refusing to post to those members whos spelling or lack of typing abilities "annoy" you, you are in essence showing a bit of who you may truly be, its a tad bit shallow sounding is it not? How would all of you like it if you were deemed unworthy of a response simply because members did not like your user SN (thats an abbreviation for screen name), or your avatar, or even your qoutes in your signature? and say these same people who did not like something about you started a whole thread citing you as 'ignorant' or 'less intelligent' and that post received an overwhelming response from other members who are supposed to be here to offer support......would you not feel discouraged from posting?

I will say that one of the reasons i find myself coming back to this forum is because of the overwhelming support MOST (again not yelling but emphasizing) users offer to one another, regardless of spelling, slang, or typos. This thread threw my positive view of this board for a loop. I refer people to this site for support and information and its rather discouraging to wonder if they will recieve that support based on their ability to type/spell.

well i hope that someone made it through my 'long' post, and please excuse my typos, i lack the perfection of others in certain areas of my life.


edited to correct at least some of my spelling

use short cuts, abbreviations, etc simply because they are not the best at typing/spelling

I see these as totally different things... I think the use of shortcuts/abbreviations has nothing to do with the fact that someone is not the best at typing/spelling.

If someone was bad at typing/spelling, they would spell the word "because" like this...

becuse

instead of ...

b/c


I don't mind either way though... just my $0.02.

I find it a personal affront that people, often seemingly younger in age, feel it necessary to save a keystroke or two using these more and more accepted abbreviations. It is lazy and it is, in my opinion, indicative of their future potential. If a person can't find it in his/herself to type a complete sentence with proper spelling, punctuation, grammar and moment's proofreading, I find their presence wholly unnecessary - I don't find their absence, if insulted by this thread, to be any significant loss.

We consider ourselves among this forum to be an above-average community, why not behave as such? It's so simple to take but a few extra seconds and is a simple, small detail that enhances the quality of who you are, what you represent and how you portray yourself to your cyber-cronies here. If you find details such as polishing who you are and how your display yourself to the world to be moot, then I find you to be moot. Even among the more motivated individuals of the JSF community, there's an element of laziness showcased in poor spelling, grammar, and proofreading.

That's sad. If you find this insulting, there's a little red "X" on the top right hand corner of your web browser. Feel free to use it. I won't miss you.

incidently, since this community is 'above average' in its communication abilities then i must applaud those who find this thread acceptable, encouraging, and supportive....you have gone out of your way to prove that being 'above average' doesnt mean well mannered (as this thread states, bad grammar equals bad manners. wait, doesnt thinking you are better than others based on your grammar also point to 'bad manners'? seems to me, starting this thread was a significant display of bad manners and poor taste), nor does it mean 'better'..it points closer to arrogance and bad taste

but hey, JMO. i will go take a seat with the 'less than privilaged' members of this community who are supportive to all no matter what their communication abilities may be....maybe john could add a new section specifically for those 'under average' individuals so that they may support one another.

"d00d, ur progres iz amazing!!1! i need sum hlp b/c no matter what i do my 6p wont show and i do lots of situps and stuff. somehow u have done what i am trying 2 do pls write back pls ahm desparate!!!!!!!!!!!!! ps im 26/m/230 pnd. thx again u r the man!!!!1!"
A great example of a post that I won't read. Tashimarie, I understand what you're saying and I, for one, am not trying to be an English grammar Nazi. Everyone makes typos and spelling errors. I don't know anyone who uses perfect grammar in conversation and, for the most part, all posts are written in conversational style. Yes, I know that "It is I" is technically correct, but "It's me" sounds better. I also know the difference between "your" and "you're" but in my typing haste, I sometimes use the wrong word. I think we all do that.

There are general etiquette rules of posting. Using all caps for emphasis is within those rules. Typing an entire post in caps is not within those rules. No one want to run off a newbie, but a newbie does owe it to the community to learn the rules of etiquette, don't they? Sure, it takes time to learn the rules and I won't jump on a newbie as I assume they simply need some time to learn.

I find it a personal affront that people, often seemingly younger in age, feel it necessary to save a keystroke or two using these more and more accepted abbreviations.
You're right. Most people who write like that are teenagers. I cringe every time I talk to someone from school on AIM because it's shocking to see a really smart person saying "waz up? how r u doing??????".

Marie, I understand your point of view and I do understand the vantage point from which you view this thread. I simply don't agree with it.

I am no better than anyone else. I have no more potential than anyone else nor am I any more privileged than any other person on this planet. I simply choose to exercise my potential to the fullest extent I consider possible; if that is an affront to anyone, I offer you no apology except to say that you have every bit the potential, if not more than I do, you simply haven't gone to the lengths required to discover it.

Discovering that potential in yourself means exercising more than your body parts as we often speak of in this forum; it means paying attention to every detail in your life, no matter how trivial that detail may be, and giving it attention. It begins with spelling, grammar and punctuation when putting your best foot forth in a medium that is textual in nature. Exercising potential is striving for excellence in everything from taking your garbage to the curb to doing your job well. No matter how small a detail may be, it is worthy of attention. Just how much attention? I leave that to the discretion of each person.

If that makes me a monster in anyone's eyes, so be it. I do not withhold advice, I do not "dumb down" anything I post here, and I give each poster the same detail and attention I would any other regardless of the quality of the post.

-R

Surely these forums where started by John as a place to assist and offer guidance to people relating to fitness topics not for bitching about people who may have never used chat or forums on the internet before and do not know the manners used.
Was this thread a constructive one to start with surely it would have been better just not to read a post that offends,but what do I know?

I formulate my replies more carefully to people who use better grammar, because I know that a concise answer is more important to them.

There was a website I used to visit whose premise was to fight ignorance and gain knowledge. On these forums, the bad grammar and even spelling mistakes really annoyed me; on the flip side, I was a bit intimidated to post there. Here, however, it doesn't bother me when someone uses bad grammar. If it's hard to follow or it's rude, I generally just choose not to answer it.

Bluestreak, it's a bit of a stretch that someone can improve their communication style to the degree of your writings. ("I have no more potential than anyone else.") If I had to have good knowledge of history or geography in order to participate in these forums, I'd be outta here in no time flat. This is a fitness forum, and people should feel welcome to express themselves in the way that they see fit. It won't bother them that I choose not to respond to them, and I don't let it bother me that they focus their efforts on things other than language skills.

tashimarie, the original post is not bashing people who lack perfection. It questioned language etiquette not language skills. The people who are using the techniques described are usually doing it quite intentionally, and not because they don't have above average grammar skills. They KNOW proper grammar and are deliberately choosing to express themselves unconventionally. That makes it tough on the rest of us to follow along.

tashimarie, first of all, Knubb did not make this thread to insult those who may misspell words and/or make grammatical errors. He was complaining about posts written in all caps or in some form that makes its context feel condescending or just reading it very difficult. I see nothing wrong with his intentions as it is just not proper on a forum geared at adults to type like the average 11 year old. John has said time and time again why there is no Teen section; because these are adult forums. Act like it, or don't participate.

As for the shorcuts and whatnot, Knubb didn't bring them up, but I hate them too. Just read the example John showed us. Reading that paragraph gave me a headache. If most posts here matched the quality of his example message, you can bet myself and others would not bother reading them.

I really don't think you are anyone else should take this thread offensively. If anything, to those who do purposely use poor grammar to save time or write in all caps, it is a good lesson for the future. That behavior is unaccepted by most.

"d00d, ur progres iz amazing!!1! i need sum hlp b/c no matter what i do my 6p wont show and i do lots of situps and stuff. somehow u have done what i am trying 2 do pls write back pls ahm desparate!!!!!!!!!!!!! ps im 26/m/230 pnd. thx again u r the man!!!!1!"

You could not have (could'nt've?..hehe) laid out a better example. These people don't type like this to save time. They had to LEARN to type this way. They intentionally learned to use what I like to call, "noobonics", to put themselves in a different place than others. I believe it to be a very trite and junenile way to get attention.... simply put... a child disrespecting a parent.

Spelling words like your, two, and before correctly is certainly not rocket science. It does not save time to misspell words. It WASTES time to everyone involved. I feel the people that do it are intentionally being disrespectful. Their real ignorance or feigned ignorance will never change that in my mind.

It is not a secret code. It is not the way people speak on the internet. It is not what hackers do, and it does not make you associated with hackers.

n00bonics is NOT cool. :D

four

tashimarie, the original post is not bashing people who lack perfection. It questioned language etiquette not language skills. The people who are using the techniques described are usually doing it quite intentionally, and not because they don't have above average grammar skills. They KNOW proper grammar and are deliberately choosing to express themselves unconventionally. That makes it tough on the rest of us to follow along.
I appreciate this paragraph guava.



Tashimarie, I would appreciate if you went back to my initial post and read it again. I did not start this thread because someone used all caps, I started it because someone commented that all caps equals yelling, and that got me thinking about both the way I function when I come across posts that seem to conciously disregard every sense of grammar, and that many such posts recieve few answers. I consider the difference to be quite large. Had I not read the post stating that all caps is yelling, I wouldn't have thought about it, and I wouldn't have started this thread at all.

As you probably can see from the ones who have commented on my grammar, I'm not perfect in any way. I've never claimed to be perfect, nor will I ever do that. Whenever I post at JSF, I use an online dictionary (http://www-lexikon.nada.kth.se/skolverket/sve-eng.shtml) to check my spelling when uncertain, but I miss words anyway. I miss a lot of grammar too. Still, I try to keep my grammar as clean as I can, and that's what I would want from other members too. As others have stated, trying to write in a proper style shows respect to the reader, as I see it.

I did not, as you seem to think, start this thread to insult anyone. I am aware that it can be percieved that way, but it wasn't my intention. I would like to refer to guava's last paragraph, since she put it better than I did. That was the way I wanted people to see it. If I wanted to insult someone, I wouldn't be so subtile, and I surely wouldn't start a whole new thread to do that.





To those of you who commented on my grammar: Yes, I am swedish, and english is my second language. It's quite okay that you give me a hard time, no offence taken.

I personally like it when people speak in a slangish way, in fact I usually post in forums and visit american IRC channels to learn words and expressions that people often use in the street but aren't in any textbook. I've found it's helped in improving my English: just today I learned what "to dig something" meant by reading JSF forums :lol:

See you.

PS: Just now I remembered to google "I'd hit it means": I read that expression a while ago but forgot to look it up :$

PPS: I can't use prepositions properly, save your comments you +@+!ers :lol:

PPPS: Knubb, there's a spelling mistake in your reply, but don't worry: it's subtle.

---
EDIT: Forgot to capitalise "English" :lol: :lol:

well im going to be the odd woman out here. I find this whole thread to be very insulting and maybe even a bit discouraging to new members or those who use short cuts, abbreviations, etc simply because they are not the best at typing/spelling. I failed to indent and capitalize the first letter of this paragraph...does that somehow make me ignorant?

I agree although I do not find it insulting. I'm leaning more towards the shocked state that something so irrelevent would cause so much anquish. Get over it already, if anything it's a way people express themselves, are you against that too? Should we all dress the same too and speak exactly alike?

What the heck, are you all a bunch of bleeding heart liberal democrats or something?

n00bonics is NOT cool. :D

four

...that looks more like fluent Moron to me :p

PPPS: Knubb, there's a spelling mistake in your reply, but don't worry: it's subtle.
Whenever I post at JSF, I use an online dictionary to check my spelling when uncertain, but I miss words anyway.
I did prove my point, didn't I?

I agree although I do not find it insulting. I'm leaning more towards the shocked state that something so irrelevent would cause so much anquish. Get over it already, if anything it's a way people express themselves, are you against that too? Should we all dress the same too and speak exactly alike?

What the heck, are you all a bunch of bleeding heart liberal democrats or something?
Obviously, I don't feel that this matter is irrelevant. Going back to what made me think about it, would you like it if someone came up to you and screamed something into your ear? Would you laugh a little and say that it's the way that person expresses himself? I doubt it. There are ways we behave in society in real life in order to be able to communicate with respect, and there are ways we write to achieve the same thing. I wanted to find out what other people's views were on how to write respectfully.

I don't think we should speak exactly alike. We need to speak somewhat alike though, in order to understand each other. I could start writing in Swedish, but I doubt that many people on the forum would understand that.

Everyone has a different way of expressing themselves, and much of that stems from their parents and upbringing, modified by their own choices. Personally, I don't like poor grammar and shortcuts, even whilst texting, but that's just me.

To mention things we don't like about other posts is ok, but sweeping generalisations are a different matter. "teenagers" are not the only culprits, just a convenient target. I was told something a long time ago; never talk down to anyone over the age of 7, because their brain is fully developed at that age, and they could easily be much smarter than you, they simply don't have the knowledge yet.

I had comments made about a post I wrote in which I swore. I gave no reply at the time, but one comment annoyed me greatly. It was intimated that those who swear have a limited vocabulary, therefore lack the skills to express themselves in any other way. I have no problem whatsoever with my vocabulary, and CHOSE to swear as a way to express myself in a particular fashion. In the same way, despite not liking some posts due to their grammatical content, I have no reason to complain about them, I choose to ignore, rather than get annoyed. There are plenty of subjects on these boards that I have no interest in, and they get the same treatment.

It's the same with smilies, I don't like them, and never use them, but their use by others doesn't annoy me.

Andrew.