wheater your goal is to lose fat or gain solid mass, i recomend the following to acheive this!

whey isolate protein
micronized creatine with dextrose
dextrose (if not in creatine)
glutamine

how these work together to provide optimum growth.

after you workout your glycogen and blood sugar is gone, your on empty. in order to drive nutrients to your muscle you must spike your insulin with a HI GI carb, such as dextrose. IF you do not spike your insulin as such and just take a protein shake, the majoirty if not all of the shake will goto replacing glycogen and not entering your muscle.

once your insulin is spike (insulin a nutrient transported) your body is primed and ready to absorb the nutrients.

whey isolate will be devoured within 30 mins, and straight into the muscle tissue for repair and growth.

glutamine will imploud or volumize the cell tissue and prevent catabolism (turning on anabolism).

creatine will fill the muscle tissue with water, allowing for greater carb storage. more carbs = more energy for your next workout and muscles are repaired quicker and stronger.

all these combined are a very potent way of increasing muscle tissue. i also recomend taking 1/8 tsp of salt if you consume creatine/glutamine. simply because sodium is a transporter for creatine/gluatmine. and in the small intensine where creatine/glutamine go, there are only trace amounts.. not enough to transport the full beneficial amount.

In addition to the supplements listed above, I take ZMA; it's inexpensive, and promotes deep, sound sleep (also claims to boost anabolic hormone levels). Don't forget a good multi-vitamin!

wheater your goal is to lose fat or gain solid mass, i recomend the following to acheive this!

whey isolate protein
micronized creatine with dextrose
dextrose (if not in creatine)
glutamine

how these work together to provide optimum growth.

after you workout your glycogen and blood sugar is gone, your on empty. in order to drive nutrients to your muscle you must spike your insulin with a HI GI carb, such as dextrose. IF you do not spike your insulin as such and just take a protein shake, the majoirty if not all of the shake will goto replacing glycogen and not entering your muscle.

once your insulin is spike (insulin a nutrient transported) your body is primed and ready to absorb the nutrients.

"People have been brainwashed by the idea that high GI carbs from dextrose/malto are necessary for post-WO nutrition.
As someone said, this is what the supp. companies want you believe, as malto/dextrose are the cheapest source of carbs out there. (others would call them with more fancy names such as glucose polymers )

Now by ingesting carbs such as oatmeal immediately post-WO, blood sugar increases at a steady rate, and insulin levels stay somewhat stable (no peaks and valleys).
This hence leads to a continuous anabolic period post-WO, eventhough anabolism takes a few more minutes to take place.

Plus there is less risk of overspillage and hence fat gain, due to the lower digestion rate of such carb sources.

There is the long term insulin sensitivity issue as well. By ingesting a huge serving of sugar, day-in and day-out, your body will slowly be in need of increasing insulin secretion to regulate blood sugar - this is known as decreased insulin sensitivity.
In the long term, this translates into a higher ratio of fat-to-lbm gained.

Finally, man was not supposed to eat such refined carbs (matlo/dextrose). It is today's society that made glucose and white bread a staple in our diet."
RippedUp (bodybuilding.com)

I like the idea of a small increase in insulin to help support nutrient uptake, but the spike associated with a low GI carb like oats is enough. Moreover, the amino acids in the Whey Isolate have a more important role in glycogen and protein synthesis than insulin does.
"We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle."
Liu Z, Jahn LA, Wei L, Long W, Barrett EJ.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA. zl3e@virginia.edu

Lastly, ZMA although proven to do what the label says, is much cheaper if you buy Zinc(30mg),B6(10mg),Magnesium(450mg)

Moe

Hmmm...looks like we got two different perspectives going here. I'd like to know what to take after my workouts. Anyone have some good web sites I can visit to find out more? I don't want to feel that all my hard work and expensive protein supplements are going to waste :(

R-ALA or Alpha Lipoic Acid is one of the best supplement on the market. It Shuttles Low or High GI carbs into the muscle cell and blunt insulin spikes. Plus it is a great anti-oxidant and a source of omega 3 fatty acid.
Some of the others I recommend.
Whey Protien or MRP
CLA - Conjugated Linolic Acid is also very good
Creatine
Glutamine
Multi Vitamins/Mineral
Acetyl L-Carnitine.

Blind180

Hmmm...looks like we got two different perspectives going here. I'd like to know what to take after my workouts. Anyone have some good web sites I can visit to find out more? I don't want to feel that all my hard work and expensive protein supplements are going to waste :(

Basically, I try and stick to the basics: Optimum Nutrition Whey with some 1/3c Oats postworkout and micronized creatine. I take AST multi-vitamin in morning as well as 3g Vitamin C throughout the day (tendecy to get sick). Also at night i consume Nighttime Protein Blend from Protein Customizer.
TOTAL~$35/month (poor college student)


Like the first post said whether you decide to go Hi or Low GI carb post workout you NEED to take one of them. Also ALA or R-ALA can help you if you have fat gain from an overabundance of carbohydrates.

"People have been brainwashed by the idea that high GI carbs from dextrose/malto are necessary for post-WO nutrition.
As someone said, this is what the supp. companies want you believe, as malto/dextrose are the cheapest source of carbs out there. (others would call them with more fancy names such as glucose polymers )

Now by ingesting carbs such as oatmeal immediately post-WO, blood sugar increases at a steady rate, and insulin levels stay somewhat stable (no peaks and valleys).
This hence leads to a continuous anabolic period post-WO, eventhough anabolism takes a few more minutes to take place.

Plus there is less risk of overspillage and hence fat gain, due to the lower digestion rate of such carb sources.

There is the long term insulin sensitivity issue as well. By ingesting a huge serving of sugar, day-in and day-out, your body will slowly be in need of increasing insulin secretion to regulate blood sugar - this is known as decreased insulin sensitivity.
In the long term, this translates into a higher ratio of fat-to-lbm gained.

Finally, man was not supposed to eat such refined carbs (matlo/dextrose). It is today's society that made glucose and white bread a staple in our diet."
RippedUp (bodybuilding.com)

I like the idea of a small increase in insulin to help support nutrient uptake, but the spike associated with a low GI carb like oats is enough. Moreover, the amino acids in the Whey Isolate have a more important role in glycogen and protein synthesis than insulin does.
"We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle."
Liu Z, Jahn LA, Wei L, Long W, Barrett EJ.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA. zl3e@virginia.edu

Lastly, ZMA although proven to do what the label says, is much cheaper if you buy Zinc(30mg),B6(10mg),Magnesium(450mg)

Moe

that is 100% true

BUT, spiking your insulin once a day wont give you adult onset diabities.. this occurs to people that does this several times a day.

and its a proven fact, i've experimented myself and i get more gains by taking a hi gi carb after a workout.

it is scientifically proven to increase the uptake of nutrients after a workout, there is no question about this. both methods will work fine, BUT.. there is no doubt that taking in something like dextrose will increase your gains

Yah...I agree either method will work but its as completely personal choice. At first I was a little skeptical of abnegating my dextrose PW but after several viable sources show scientific evidence, I went ahead and tried the oats. I just feel I dont struggle so much with fat when I stay at a slow increase in blood sugar levels throughout the day, esp. since an hour later I injest a fairly large meal. Also, I posted that the amino acids in wpi signal the body to increase protein synthesis. I am still in my freshman year of biochemistry so I dont know exactly why yet.....but i will find out.

But like I said earlier, one way or the other take a carb source immediately after working out and also some protein.

what's your take on getting some protein pre workout as well as carbs/protein post? apparently there's some benefit

"the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of a protein solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids"

Pre/Post Exercise Nutrition (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hsn_artcls_prepostnutri.html)

If you're eating 5-6 times a day and getting enough protein, how much does this really matter?

there isnt a single meal i consume in a day that doesnt contain at least 20 grams of protein.

every meal should have a source of protein.

pre workout it is good to have a quality carb source with some protein.

before a workout i consume 1/3 cup cooked oatmeal with 1 scoop whey protein isolate mixed in.. 240 calories. 21g of carbs, 37g of protein

Wow....thats funny Jono and I have opposite approaches to the way we bracket our workouts. Pre: I consume a 20g isolate shake, and some gatorade. But post I go with Optimum and Oats. I think it depends for me on when I workout, I am not too sure about consuming Hi GI carbs before working out but I really need the energy boost. I soon may try something like GO from BSL or some other energy stimulant.