I'm watching an old episode of What Not to Wear, where they're doing a makeover for Olympian Tara Kirk. Here are a couple of pictures:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1288/701496460_4cf84ae4b1.jpg http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/06/25/2008017635.jpg

She was incredibly self-conscious of her shoulders and arms. In one scene, she's trying on a (cute) cap-sleeve top and complaining, "If you look from the side, you just see a huge amount of tricep and bicep. It's just not cute."

Maybe not so much "cute", but damned sexy, in my opinion. But I'm neither a man nor a lesbian, so what do I know? Anyway, they searched high and low for tops which covered her shoulders. If I had shoulders like that, you'd have to work very hard to get me to wear any sleeved shirts!

What say you? In order to be more feminine, should Tara have, indeed, worked hard to find clothes which would minimize her athletic look, or do you think she should have been selecting clothes which showed off her shoulders and arms?

EDITED because I'm just getting to the end of the show. She actually did select a couple of sleeveless tops for her "final" outfits, so I guess she got over it a little. More significantly, they mentioned that she had to go up to a size ten to accommodate her upper body even though her waist is about a size two or four. Wow.

She is an Olympian! She should just be proud of that and not worry about what other people think, and if they do care maybe mentioning that she is a world class olympian they may change their mindset.

Well, it is pretty common just for normal gym rats to have difficulty finding clothes that properly fit. It must be even worse for an elite athlete whose sport creates physical dimensions that differ markedly from the norm.

Maybe not so much "cute", but damned sexy, in my opinion. But I'm neither a man nor a lesbian, so what do I know? Anyway, they searched high and low for tops which covered her shoulders. If I had shoulders like that, you'd have to work very hard to get me to wear any sleeved shirts!

So hot. :dreamy:

Well, it is pretty common just for normal gym rats to have difficulty finding clothes that properly fit. It must be even worse for an elite athlete whose sport creates physical dimensions that differ markedly from the norm.

Yeah, I get that and can only wish I had that problem (one day... :bb:). Anyway, it wasn't the "proper fit" part that made me go :doh:, but the desire to cover the shoulders and arms - to disguise her hard-earned athletic build, really.

I find it interesting that there are two women in this thread saying it's hot, while the men are only explaining and defending it... not really making comments on whether her upper body is hot or should be covered in order to look sexy. Hmmm... :confused:

I find it interesting that there are two women in this thread saying it's hot, while the men are only explaining and defending it... not really making comments on whether her upper body is hot or should be covered in order to look sexy. Hmmm... :confused:

Well, over the last couple of years, I've tried to stay away from such comments for a few reasons:

1) Although I disagree with this type of prioritization, I find that many people train almost exclusively for appearance. My general attitude is this: Even if some people DO find it less attractive ... so what? Why does training hard, attaining athletic goals, and improving oneself need to be justified based on another person's subjective interpretation of what is attractive? I mean, she is an elite Olympic athlete!! In my view, that is much more impressive and admirable than her looks will ever be.

2) Because of number 1, if I comment that a particular body is not attractive, it may dissuade someone from pursuing their goals, make them feel belittled and discouraged....particularly if they look similar to that person or that person's body inspires them to work hard in the gym.

3) What we find attractive is completely beyond our control -- but even given this fact, expressing that a particular look is not attractive can feel like a personal judgment to the other person.

But....since you seem interested in my opinion, I will break my usual "rule" and comment. :)

Personally, I find her to be attractive and I would not want her to cover up her arms/shoulders. But to be 100% honest, I would probably also find her to be just as attractive without the muscle. I find a variety of body types attractive (even many not-so-fit ones).

What we like/don't like is the result of 1000s of years of natural selection. We can't really control it. Most of us don't even understand it .

If you want some sort of science based answer there was a study done a few years back. Memory tells me the average guy found women in the 15 to 20% bf range most attractive. Why? It's hardwired. Below some point women are less likely to be good breeders. Do you think the average drunk guy in a bar is thinking "hmm she'll make a good mother ?" :whistle: Most of us aren't even thinking.

But curves send the signal of mature. So us apes have a natural attraction to cuvry.

There are cultural differences but straight guys tend to like hips etc . We can't help it

I find it interesting that there are two women in this thread saying it's hot, while the men are only explaining and defending it... not really making comments on whether her upper body is hot or should be covered in order to look sexy. Hmmm... :confused:

I think that a lot of us on this forum have tried to keep it from degenerating into a "hot or not" type of thing that makes it an uncomfortable environment for people already self conscious about their body*. Guys here are generally pretty good about that, so are less likely to jump in drooling over females :) The female population is already probably in the minority, and we don't want to run women off.

I personally find athletic looking women attractive.


* outside of the private forum's Wasteland thread and a few other exceptions

What say you? In order to be more feminine, should Tara have, indeed, worked hard to find clothes which would minimize her athletic look, or do you think she should have been selecting clothes which showed off her shoulders and arms?

She has an Olympic medal. It's the perfect accessory. She can wear absolutely whatever she wants.

I think that a lot of us on this forum have tried to keep it from degenerating into a "hot or not" type of thing that makes it an uncomfortable environment for people already self conscious about their body*. Guys here are generally pretty good about that, so are less likely to jump in drooling over females :) The female population is already probably in the minority, and we don't want to run women off.

Well said. :nod:

I think that a lot of us on this forum have tried to keep it from degenerating into a "hot or not" type of thing that makes it an uncomfortable environment for people already self conscious about their body*.

Oh, interesting. I hadn't realized that people would actively avoid that. But I do understand. And, I guess, there really is no way to answer my question without going there (except for the "she's an Olympian" thing).

I don't expect an answer, but I'm beginning to suspect that (yes, due to biology and evolution) that many men here may intellectually approve of the hard work that's behind her physique, while their biology prevents them from being actually attracted to her shape. Again, no need to answer. I'm just thinking out loud. And if my out loud thoughts should be edited out, feel free to say so.

Memory tells me the average guy found women in the 15 to 20% bf range most attractive.

True enough. Although, I don't think she's outside the ideal bf% range; I think it's the muscularity that is off-putting to some. And you're right that biology doesn't drive everything. (Attraction to hips is driven by biology, though.)

OK, it is what it is. My apologies if I tried to open Pandora's box. :)

I saw the episode, and i thought she looked great -- however, from a personal opinion, on what I think is attractive and not attractive - accomplishments aside - i thought it was freaking weird looking.

I can appreciate the hard work she's done to look the way she does, but I still wouldn't put her in a sundress with no sleeves.

don't strike me down people, it's just a personal opinion....:D

I think that a lot of us on this forum have tried to keep it from degenerating into a "hot or not" type of thing that makes it an uncomfortable environment for people already self conscious about their body*. Guys here are generally pretty good about that, so are less likely to jump in drooling over females :) Very true. I also sense that there's a difference, if even only a subtle one, between "attractive" and "sexy", especially where the muscularity of women is concerned. (A counter-example in the male side might be that I think manicured finger nails on a man are "attractive" but not "sexy")

I saw the episode, and i thought she looked great -- however, from a personal opinion, on what I think is attractive and not attractive - accomplishments aside - i thought it was freaking weird looking.

I can appreciate the hard work she's done to look the way she does, but I still wouldn't put her in a sundress with no sleeves.

don't strike me down people, it's just a personal opinion....:DI didn't see the episode, and it's one of my very favorite tv shows.

But I can see where you're coming from. Women with a lot of muscle look really amazing and gorgeous in a tank top, but a lot of them just might not have the right curves to dazzle in a spaghetti strap dress. There really are certain styles of clothing that it wouldn't hurt muscular women to avoid, just as there are styles that large hipped women probably shouldn't flaunt. No, she absolutely should not hide her shoulders in her everday wear or her athletic wear, but her cocktail/formal attire might require some careful attention in attempt to play up the more traditionally feminine aspects of her physique, which might include covering up her larger than average shoulders.

:) Ok, I’m probably going to regret this but I think I’ll make a ‘ginger’ attempt to wade into the fray here.

(Do note the following is sheer personal opinion, my own) Broad shoulders, as is muscle mass, wonderful, beautiful and IMO to die for (I don’t have them, broad shoulders but if I could I would …….now, that said); however in the pictures presented in the post (and bearing in mind I have no idea what television show is referenced) the ‘accomplished’ young lady in question (do remember this is based strictly on the pics above AND my own personal opinion) appears to be wearing more upper body fat than would be aesthetically desirable should she/you or me elect to display arms, shoulders, upper body to the most pleasing advantage.

Before closing I would like to make this one last observation………..I think all of the previous posters have responded in the best tradition of the JSFF……….All but me of course, I just sort of put it out there! :D

Women with a lot of muscle look really amazing and gorgeous in a tank top, but a lot of them just might not have the right curves to dazzle in a spaghetti strap dress.

That's an interesting point. It could be that she was missing a bit of what could balance out certain parts of her body.

It also strikes me that, rather than being sensitive about her arms and shoulders, she could have done well to focus on minimizing the appearance of her traps. (Those fabulously powerful traps that help her race so well.) But, yes, this is a matter of taste, which is incredibly subjective.

however in the pictures presented in the post (and bearing in mind I have no idea what television show is referenced) the ‘accomplished’ young lady in question (do remember this is based strictly on the pics above AND my own personal opinion) appears to be wearing more upper body fat than would be aesthetically desirable should she/you or me elect to display arms, shoulders, upper body to the most pleasing advantage.

Interesting. (And I, too, do seriously hope that I'm not offending any people lurking in this thread.) I actually don't see a lot of fat. No, she's not particularly "cut", but I don't think she's carrying more fat than the average woman. (Actually, considering her accomplishments, I'd suspect she's on the low side of average female BF%, but I could be wrong.) I believe that she just has an incredible amount of muscle mass underneath her fat layers.

But, yes, I can see how this might give the appearance of overall fat. Maybe that's part of the issue, and maybe that's why she is/was so sensitive about it. It would be in no way an advantage to constrict her calories to drop BF (being an athlete first and foremost). But if another woman had a similar physique, she could possibly alter her appearance a little by dropping a little BF.

That's an interesting point.

Funny, I thought it was all about the muscularity, but maybe that isn't it. More food for thought.

Again, anyone should feel free to tell me to shut down this thread if they think it's in the best interest of other readers (or even themselves). A PM to that effect would be fine.

Put me in the "she's hot" crowd :cool:

Again, anyone should feel free to tell me to shut down this thread if they think it's in the best interest of other readers (or even themselves). A PM to that effect would be fine.

I think you were asking about people's opinions on a certain shape and clothing choices, not to rate or assess a person in particular.

I think you were asking about people's opinions on a certain shape and clothing choices, not to rate or assess a person in particular.

That's really what I was trying to do, but I see how it had the potential to easily shift the other way.

I wonder if some guys here had PTSD-like flashbacks to, "Hey, does this dress make my butt look big?" ;)

I think she's very attractive....and I think her musculature is a big part of it, but I'm with Carole. Cutting up a bit (guava-style!) would make her even more attractive.

I actually don't see a lot of fat. No, she's not particularly "cut", but I don't think she's carrying more fat than the average woman.

Somewhat related: Why do female Olympic swimmers have the body type they do? (http://ask.metafilter.com/95792/Why-do-female-olympic-swimmers-have-the-body-type-they-do)

:)Do know that in my previous post it had not been my intention to suggest that the ‘young lady in question’ was less than “hot” by anyone’s standards……..I merely shared my personal opinion which perhaps better expressed would be to say……Muscle mass is a much desired condition but that said in order to properly appreciate the beauty of the muscles a visual measure of striation is necessary……….Life circumstances not withstanding I would think the young lady in question had reservations, initially, because of and despite the fact her arms are desirably muscled, there is still that bit of ‘cloaking’ of the muscles……..which could give, to the unschooled eye, the appearance of ‘fat’ arms instead of the strong and beautiful arms they most certainly are! Obviously by her final selection of clothing she overcame her fears of the opinion of the less informed and choose to share the vision of just one of her beautiful visual assets. :)

Yeah, no, I got that. It was a good perspective shift and you had explained it well enough. I still stand by my statement that she has "average" body fat for a woman, which does, indeed, cloak her muscle mass. What you say makes sense. :nod:

Muscle mass is a much desired condition but that said in order to properly appreciate the beauty of the muscles a visual measure of striation is necessary.
I still stand by my statement that she has "average" body fat for a woman, which does, indeed, cloak her muscle mass. What you say makes sense. :nod:

To take this further yet, I would venture to say that women who are naturally "large framed" (which is usually just a euphamism for muscular) have to reach a lower body fat percentage than most women in order to be considered attractive.

I think your average Olympic swimmer has about the same percentage of body fat as your average cheerleader. But because your average cheerleader has bigger boobs (in ratio to her waist) and thinner arms, she looks more svelt and sexy than the Olympic swimmer.

Your average Victoria's Secret model has a body fat percentage of around 18-22%. Your average fitness model has a body fat percentage of around 15-17%. Because small women are still (either consciously or unconsciously) more desirable-looking, the more muscle mass a woman has, the less fat she can have while still being considered "hot".

I don't think any of this is offensive or insulting, just intriguing.

I don't think any of this is offensive or insulting, just intriguing.

:dreamy: i agree! :nod:

]Your average Victoria's Secret model has a body fat percentage of around 18-22%. Your average fitness model has a body fat percentage of around 15-17%. Because small women are still (either consciously or unconsciously) more desirable-looking, the more muscle mass a woman has, the less fat she can have while still being considered "hot".


I think for a lot of guys, women with athletic body types are very attractive (self included). Never have i seen a girl in the gym doing weight/resistance work and thought 'she's got too much muscle making her unattractive.'

Looking at VS models i cant imagine any of them ever eat or lift anything heavier than a cell phone to talk to whatever chilean polo player they're dating at the moment.

Looking at VS models i cant imagine any of them ever eat or lift anything heavier than a cell phone to talk to whatever chilean polo player they're dating at the moment.

This is where looks can be surprisingly deceiving. I lift harder than most of the women I see at my gym. Not all (and I'm still in straight-girl-love with the chick who did unassisted dips and pull-ups as if they were nothing :dreamy:), but most.

But there was this "scrawny" girl the other day who I would have thought wouldn't be able to pick up a cracker if it had cheese on it. She blew away my maxes. With great form. I don't know where she stores the muscles, but good on her. What I do know is that anyone who picks a fight with her, thinking she's easy prey, will surely learn a hard lesson.

the ‘accomplished’ young lady in question (do remember this is based strictly on the pics above AND my own personal opinion) appears to be wearing more upper body fat than would be aesthetically desirable should she/you or me elect to display arms, shoulders, upper body to the most pleasing advantage.

You're darn right. I'd call it shapeless.