One of my goals is to get in tip top shape and to start taking martial arts classes. (Most likely Taekwondo or Jujitsu because those are the only ones available here.) I started Taekwondo when I was out of shape, but I was always wishing that my cardio conditioning was better so that I could focus fully on my form and not on catching my breath. :)

Is there anything in particular that any of the martial artists on this board would suggest an aspiring martial artist should focus on? I know that flexibility is key--any stretches in particular? Any muscles in particular that you think it would be important to develop? Any workout plans you follow specifically to improve your martial arts abilities? Any sites or books you would suggest?

Thanks. :)

for TKD, I'd say make sure you quads are good. When you start sparing, you want your calves in shape (unless you are doing "olympic style" sparing - they stand flat on their fee t with their arms down - go figure).
In class, the most painful things we did were lunges, leg lifts and concentration front kicks... OUCH thoes hurt...

I study Praying Mantis Kung Fu. Flexibility, leg strength and muscular endurance are key.

Flexibility: my current goal is to be able to do front splits and side splits ala Jean Claude Van Damn. This increases kicking power and reduces the possibility of getting injured. Training for the splits also increases leg strength.

Leg Strength: You guessed it. SQUATS. You can also do wall chairs. Lean your back against the wall with your feet about 18 inches away. Slide your back down the wall until you thighs and lower legs create a 90 degree angle like you're sitting in an invisible chair. Hold this position for 30 seconds and then relax. Repeat this exercise a few times. When you can hold the position for a few minutes your legs will be pretty strong. In class we do stance training like holding a horse stance for a couple minutes while a staff rests on the top of your thighs. The idea is to get low enough so the staff doesn't roll off.

Muscular endurance: I run for this but it's not a very good exercise for fighting. A better way to train for fighting would be to do three minute rounds on a heavy bag. Three minute round, one minute rest, three minute round, one minute rest, three minute round. You could also shadow box for three minutes if you don't have a heavy bag.

The difference between tae kwon do and Jujitsu are night and day. TKD is a stand up striking art that primarily relies on kicking. Jujitsu is a grappling art that relies alot on throws, submission holds and ground fighting.

Each school should offer a free class. Take advantage of this to see what works for you. Talk to some of the students to see how long they've been around.

WARNING: some schools will try to rope you in by saying something like you'll have your Blackbelt in 6 months or something like that. Some schools will want you to sign a contract. Some schools will say that their art is the best deffensive art. Some schools are blackbelt assembly lines "get the people in, get their money and get them out". Watch out for any of these things.

1st. It should take up to 5 years to get your black belt and this shouldn't be the goal anyway. It should be about learning the art and learning how to defend yourself. 2nd. Contracts are bad and are just a way to get your money up front. DON'T SIGN A CONTRACT WITH ANY SCHOOL! 3rd. No single art is the best, that's why there are many many differents arts to choose from. Any school that says their art is the best is starting to believe their own hype.

Ask a ton of questions. Some schools have cheap rates but totally work you over on the testing fees. I've heard of people spending $500 just for their black belt test.

I'm sorry this post is so long but finding a good school will make all the difference. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

I could write a book on how to train for Martial Arts, but I'll save that for the future.

Let me start with this:

What is your reasoning for wanting to study Martial Arts (i.e. Self-Defense, Staying in shape, Just for fun, etc)? If there's a few, list them in order of importance and I'll explain my reasoning in my reply.

Thank you all for the replies. Very helpful. I have to reply quick because I have to get back to work.

My main reason for wanting to study martial arts is to develop discipline. Both mental and physical. That's by far my biggest reason. Other reason would just be that I think I'll enjoy it. :)

Okay, considering your motivation for studying, I'd say there is not much you should do different than you already do just yet. This is assuming you already lift weights and do cardio, but I am pretty sure you do?

If you end up studying TKD, you are going to be VERY reliant on your legs. You will want to develop great strength but increase (or maintain if you're already very flexible). Also, TKD places a huge emphasis on jumping kicks, so starting to do some Plyometrics would prove very beneficial. TKD classes from my experience are VERY cardiovascular so if you want to really keep up, you'll just want to be in the best shape you can be. Just realize it does get easier.

If you study Jiu-Jitsu you will be much more dependent on your arms and upper body strength. You will of course use your lower body, but there is much more emphasis placed on stirking and grappling than in TKD. Again, I think it's best to start the classes and your instructor(s) will run you through the drills necessary to develop the proper strength and speed you need. This assumes you are studying under "good" instructors which is often not the case.

Like AMR said, NO CONTRACTS! That is an automatic sign that the school is just there for the money. I recommend trying out some free classes and getting a feel for the quality of instruction and the sense of relationship among the instructor and students and students as well. I know where I train now and have been for the last 7-8 years everyone is like a big family. It really makes training there much more enjoyable as opposed to if everyone were there to train and that was it, no relationship beyond the fact that you're there to train.

And just my $.02... I prefer Jiu-Jitsu over TKD. Again, a HUGE part of how "good" the style you study is dependent upon the school. But all things being equal, TKD is my least favorite of the arts I've ever studied (about 6 of them). And I did study TKD for 5-6 years, I just think they place too much emphasis on kicking and it's almost useless for practical self-defense. However, it will give you a GREAT workout and foundation so in the future you could expand your studies into different disciplines. So if self-defense is the least of your priorities, then you'll be fine.

Good luck and feel free to ask anything else.

I'm going to try that horse stance with the staff across my legs. And we do have a heavy bag at home, so I'll try the three minute rounds thing too.

Do any of you think it's possible to study martial arts on your own? Doesn't seem like it would be very effective. I ask because I would actually like to study something other than jujitsu or TKD. I liked TKD when I did it for a few months, but I would rather do something that uses the arms more. And I'd rather take up an art that is more striking than grappling. Not to sound weird but I generally don't like to touch other people. Okay, that does sound weird. . . but maybe someone can relate. . .basically the thought of being up close and personal with a bunch of people grappling three times a week isn't appealing, so jujitsu isn't my first pick either. . . . :confused:

Very limited resources around here though, so it's looking like it will be TKD unless I can find a school that I've somehow overlooked.

I feel fairly confident in my self-defense capabilities as it is, but certainly being more confident in it would be good.

Lots to ponder. . .

Until you're at least a Black Belt in a system, I don't think someone could effectively teach themself. Even then, an instructor is imperative on some sort of regular basis to correct things you cannot see yourself. Further, NOTHING replaces working with others when it comes to actually practicing the movements. Practicing "on the air" is only so useful...

:gl:

Any have any experience in Japanese fencing? Anyone take Kendo or Kenpo, Akido, Kenjutsu? I hope I have the names and styles right. I've always been interested in doing that.

Any have any experience in Japanese fencing? Anyone take Kendo or Kenpo, Akido, Kenjutsu? I hope I have the names and styles right. I've always been interested in doing that.

I study what's called Shaolin Kempo. It's VERY similar to Kenpo but we also incorporate a good amount of kung-fu and jiu-jitsu into our system. I'm not one of those "my style is the best" but for me personally, I think the Kempo/Kenpo styles are top notch.

Have you ever considered good ole' fashioned boxing? Very few sports/martial arts will get you in better shape than the sweet science of pugilism. Want discipline? If having a pissed-off boxing trainer scream at you for a couple hours doesn't instill discipline, I don't know what will. Want striking? Boxing will help you master the art of punching a moving target.

Have you ever considered good ole' fashioned boxing?

I always thought I'd like boxing. Except for the getting punch in the face part. That has, thus far, ruined the deal for me. I like my face, and I'm afraid of farking it up. :p (Maybe that's vanity. Oh well.)

I ordered some new boxing gloves yesterday to use on the heavy bag. The gloves we had sucked. Before I had just been using the heavy bag to practice kicks. Especially alternating round kicks (you know, where you hop from one leg to the other continuously); they are my favorite. :)

my sister has been taking boxing for a little while now, and has yet to even go up against anyone - she only "spars" with the trainer, and he uses targets on his hands... not acutal fighting

my sister has been taking boxing for a little while now, and has yet to even go up against anyone - she only "spars" with the trainer, and he uses targets on his hands... not acutal fighting
That I could do. I'll have to see if a class/trainer like that is available around here.

Karate, please excuse my ignorace for a moment. :p
There is a Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do center about 3 minutes away from me. I am very interested in joining. I was curious if once you get good enough that the center will have "real" matches that you "fight" in. Also, you mentioned when you had to take a few hour test for a black belt in some thread. Did you face an opponent during that/those tests?
I am really interested but I have no clue what to expect if I did join. :)

Karate, please excuse my ignorace for a moment. :p
There is a Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do center about 3 minutes away from me. I am very interested in joining. I was curious if once you get good enough that the center will have "real" matches that you "fight" in.

I'm not sure what you mean by "real" matches. At almost any TKD school, you will spar in class, but it's usually just practice matches. Where I study, we spar all the time with each other, sometimes for points, sometimes not. We start ALL adults (14+) sparring at the rank of white belt. Other schools wait until later in rank. But the only "real" matches occur at tournaments.


Also, you mentioned when you had to take a few hour test for a black belt in some thread. Did you face an opponent during that/those tests?
I am really interested but I have no clue what to expect if I did join. :)

At my 1st Degree black belt test, I actually did not do any sparring. My 2nd degree test, which you speak of, was a different story. The first 3.5-4 hours was more going over the techniques and forms in the system. We did several techniques on other testees, but not in a sense where there was a "winner". At some point though we did break into groups of 2 and had to grapple the other one into submission. I believe at about the 4 hour mark, we broke into groups of 4-5 for sparring. Since I was testing for my 2nd degree and everyone else was going for 1st, I had to spar consecutively, 4 opponents for 2 minutes each. Let me tell you, you think HIIT is hard, try sparring, pretty much full contact for 8 minutes straight against "fresh opponents" after 4 hours of an already tortorous test on the pavement outside in the 80 degree sun! ;)

You're a black belt? :drool: I'm not sure what you mean by "real" matches. At almost any TKD school, you will spar in class, but it's usually just practice matches. Where I study, we spar all the time with each other, sometimes for points, sometimes not. We start ALL adults (14+) sparring at the rank of white belt. Other schools wait until later in rank. But the only "real" matches occur at tournaments.




At my 1st Degree black belt test, I actually did not do any sparring. My 2nd degree test, which you speak of, was a different story. The first 3.5-4 hours was more going over the techniques and forms in the system. We did several techniques on other testees, but not in a sense where there was a "winner". At some point though we did break into groups of 2 and had to grapple the other one into submission. I believe at about the 4 hour mark, we broke into groups of 4-5 for sparring. Since I was testing for my 2nd degree and everyone else was going for 1st, I had to spar consecutively, 4 opponents for 2 minutes each. Let me tell you, you think HIIT is hard, try sparring, pretty much full contact for 8 minutes straight against "fresh opponents" after 4 hours of an already tortorous test on the pavement outside in the 80 degree sun! ;)

Thats exactly what I wanted to know Karate.

When I took TKD we sparred all the time too. I thought I would hate it, but I loved it. We wore pads and sparred with people of all different levels. Usually we'd be matched with someone of a similar level, but sometimes not. I liked that because I learned a lot more when I sparred with someone several belts higher than me. Plus, the person I was sparring with usually had some great pointers.

Once I got better at TKD, I loved sparing. with my long legs and speed, I was unstopable :)

Done Karate, Judo and TKD, Loved them all for diferring reasons. Karate due to my sensei(Cool old japanese dude his name was Kato) and the form. Judo due to the sparing, nothing tires you out as much as fighting some one your own weight and when both of you are really going for it. TKD for the kicks, man my legs ached nearly every day those 2 hour sessions killed my legs. Unfortunately didnt get very far in any of them due to me moving around a lot and not having them available at boarding school and university. So as far as your choices go Freemason, if I were you I would do both(Jiu Jitsu and TKD) but I was always overzelus about these things.

When I was over in Korea we went to the post gym one day and some Korean soldiers were there practcing TKD and working out. Anyway one exercise they were doing was starting at the bottom of the steps in a squat and then hopping up to the next step from a squat up and down two flights. Bet that's gotta burn.

And I'd rather take up an art that is more striking than grappling. Not to sound weird but I generally don't like to touch other people. Okay, that does sound weird. . . but maybe someone can relate. . .basically the thought of being up close and personal with a bunch of people grappling three times a week isn't appealing, so jujitsu isn't my first pick either. . . . :confused:
Yeah, that was a problem for me too. I'm not a touchy-feely person, and it was very awkward for me to get in a clinch with a giant sweaty guy. I got over it, but I can imagine it might even be more uncomfortable if it's intergender sparring. The point is, if you're not comfortable, don't do it.

Hi everyone, I thought I'd jump aboard on this thread as well.

I think martial arts teaches some discipline, but I would argue that a good solid workout program that you stick to on a consistent basis will teach you more about discipline than joining any martial arts school. Since your already on this forum, I bet you know a little about how hard it is to stay on a workout program on those days when you just don't "feel" like working out or how hard it is to say "no" to those cravings and stick to your eating plan. I find that the discipline I developed in working out transcends to my martial arts practice and not the other way around. Although I do workout to compliment my physical attributes for my martial arts practice (like I workout to develop strength).

As for "not feeling comfortable about getting close to people." I think that's one of the biggest benefit of training Jiu-Jitsu. People are not use to getting close to other people and grapple with them. In Jiu-Jitsu, you do this all the time so you get use to this real quick. Some people don't like the idea of sweaty people smoothering their body all over them. But I don't think the practice martial arts is meant to be "comfortable" or put you in positions or situations you use to or accustomed to (at least in a good school). This is the same for getting punched in the face. I think martial arts will teach to how to deal with these different confrontations and see how your body/natural reflexes respond to these situations. In short, part of the study of martial arts will teach you how to respond to adversity/fear/uncomfortable positions.

If you do take TKD and if you enjoy the sparring sessions, I recommend you invest some money on some good protective gear. I personally love sparring but I don't enjoy the consequence of going to work the next day walking around with a limp, bruzes, a cut, or a black eye on my face and everyone asking me what happened. So I gear up everytime and make sure I'm well protected. There is a risk in studying martial arts, that being you will get hurt. But you can try to minimize the damage if you train smart(er) and gear up will. As for getting punched in the face, it will happen. Yes vanity will play a factor, those are internal consequences everyone will have to come to terms themselves (i.e. is practicing how to respond getting to the face worth more than getting punched in the face in itself?) . I personally have my own personal feeling about TKD itself (good and bad), but the explanation requires a lot of personal beliefs about martial arts so I'll save it for another day.

But I commend you in your interest and pursuit and I look forward in hearing about your progress. Good luck and keep us posted. Please follow through with this interest as I think you will love it once you start and maybe make it a part of your life. But one step at a time.

franksjourney, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You made me think of many of these issues in a new way. There's much to consider. . . :confused: :) (Perhaps I may rethink my decision on Jujitsu.)

I will be a little while before I start martial arts classes again. I am not yet where I want to be on my cardiovascular fitness.

Karatetricker is truly the man on this board when it comes to martial arts. He gave me tons of advice a few months back and I've used the information he gave me to build a good base of knowledge.

My take is now the following:

If you want to learn self-defense, Kenpo, Muay Thai ,or Western Boxing with some grappling is your best bet. TKD and Hap Ki Do are just way too unrealistic. You would never try to kick someone in the head-much better to throw knees and fists. Low kicks are very effective though.

If you want to learn groundfighting, then brazilian jiu-jitsu is the way to go. If you're attacked by an individual and the fight goes more than 10 seconds, it will most certainly end up on the ground. If you don't like touching people, you'll hate it.

For just discipline and exercise, almost any style will do well for you. It all depends on the instructor and your classmates.

I think there's a huge trend toward people learning more practical methods rather than strict forms like in traditional karate. Add that to the rising popularity of mixed martial arts contests like the UFC and Pride and more and more people are getting interested in kickboxing/jiu-jitsu. In the 70's/80's people got into judo and form-based karate but it was generally really lame-nothing resembling reality. I've seen plenty of kids in high school who were supposedly really skilled in martial arts get pummelled by guys who just brawled. Had they learned some basic striking and grappling they could've protected themselves. Instead they were humiliated and repeatedly picked on.

This being said I haven't been in a fight since I turned 10 and don't plan on it-but you can't always choose what happens. And for those who don't really care about the self-defense aspects, it's great exercise and helps improve the mind-body connection and your range of motion, balance, agility, and proprioception.

Once again mad props to karatetricker. :tucool:

Good post Nico, it summed things up nicely for someone like me who knows very little about martial arts.

Question for anyone - I'm thinking about learning a from of martial arts for self defence, just for peace of mind and fitness. What about Aikido? Is it effective in a real fight or do you have to be very experienced to make use of the skills?

Cheers,

Marcus :tu:

Generalisation is a bad thing.
Yes I agree that strict form is no good for street fighting but when sparing strict form need not be kept and that is where formal martial arts such as TKD Karate and Judo shine through. The majority of self defence classes teach a mixture of Jiu-Jitsu and Karate (again a generalisation). A person who has done a few months of self defence classes or kick boxing or any other hands on figting method will be able to kick the ass of any TKD or Karate practitioner. After a few years though when the technique is grasped and the practitioner can now do moves sequentialy without thinking the formal martial artist will have more of a variation of moves to do in comparison with the Kick boxer. Giving him the advantage of a larger selection of moves carried out perfectly. The truth is no martial art is absolutely the best (Bruce Lee did years of research on this subject) the only thing one can do is find one that suits them the best.

Question for anyone - I'm thinking about learning a from of martial arts for self defence, just for peace of mind and fitness. What about Aikido? Is it effective in a real fight or do you have to be very experienced to make use of the skills?

I practiced Aikido for a brief period of time, so I had the chance to talk to several of the instructors about this. What they all said was that Aikido is basically useless for self defence until you get really good at it, and that it takes a long time to learn. It was still a lot of fun though, but I didn't really do it for a long enough time to go beyond the most basic movements.

Hello,
I was browsing the forum and joined to reply to this thread. I have trained in traditional Tae Kwon Do for over 12 years, and am preparing to test for my 3rd degree black belt this coming fall.

It is normal to be very excited about starting up a martial art and wanting to improve on it at a faster rate. However, it is best to just go to class as often as you can and let things happen naturally. Just about every beginner comes in and takes a while to build up the stamina to make it through class at the standard pace. It is more important to concentrate on the techniques you are being taught first, and the "fitness" should be looked at as a side benefit.

As far as weight training goes I normally lift weights before class and use the class as my cardio. This allows me to get my cardio in while I learn a self-defense art. After being in this routine for a while it makes the people on treadmills seem like hamsters that aren't getting anywhere. Aside from this I do my heavy lifting on non-class days.

With all of this said there are constant ways to improve on the art itself and the benefits it generates in a fitness sense. An example would be: when I am seriously training hard I may put on a weight vest and go through class with an extra 20 pounds on me.

Good luck with your studies.

I know that you mentioned that Tae Kwon Do was one of the two disiplines offered in your area, but...did you happen to look for a Tai Chi center in the area? I'd have to say that if you want to explore one of the traditional disiplines, Tai Chi should be on your list to consider if possible. Falling into the "Soft Arts" distinction, and the Chinese cousin to the Japanese Aikido, the name Tai Chi Chuan, literally translates to The Ultimate.
Do not be fooled by thinking of all those little old Chinese guys moving slow...Tai Chi reaches a metaphysical level that alot of the above mention disiplines do not. (except Aikido, and Kung Fu)
An entire country practicing it everyday, can't be wrong.

Tai Chi, while great as an art itself, is the most boring thing I've ever done in my life. I've trained under several great Tai Chi masters at clinics, even some when I was in China, but I just find it so tedious and boring that no matter how beneficial it may be, I would not be able to study it.

That's just me though.

I know that you mentioned that Tae Kwon Do was one of the two disiplines offered in your area, but...did you happen to look for a Tai Chi center in the area? I'd have to say that if you want to explore one of the traditional disiplines, Tai Chi should be on your list to consider if possible. Falling into the "Soft Arts" distinction, and the Chinese cousin to the Japanese Aikido, the name Tai Chi Chuan, literally translates to The Ultimate.
Do not be fooled by thinking of all those little old Chinese guys moving slow...Tai Chi reaches a metaphysical level that alot of the above mention disiplines do not. (except Aikido, and Kung Fu)
An entire country practicing it everyday, can't be wrong.

I definitely agree with the taking a long time to master part, however I think once someone became efficient in Aikido, they would be VERY well off in a self-defense situation. Aikido is an EXCELLENT art and it is one I have done very little studying in but would like to in the future.

I practiced Aikido for a brief period of time, so I had the chance to talk to several of the instructors about this. What they all said was that Aikido is basically useless for self defence until you get really good at it, and that it takes a long time to learn. It was still a lot of fun though, but I didn't really do it for a long enough time to go beyond the most basic movements.

Sorry, but I must disagree with you. I don't care if you're a white belt or 5th degree black belt, there is something much more important that factors into who will win a fight than just "knowing a lot of moves":

EXPERIENCE

And I don't mean sparring classes, karate classes, etc... I mean all out street fighting or FULL CONTACT sparring experience. A black belt of any style who has never been in a fight would 99% of the time get his ass kicked by a guy who has been in several actual street fights. A kickboxer or UFC type fighter would rip apart most martial artists because they are in the closest thing to a real fight you can be in all the time. I just prefer the traditional prt of an actual Martial Arts system, and that is why I study what I do rather than something where classes are basically getting your ass beat every night.

The exception would be an experienced Martial Artist of any style would fair better than a non-martial artist who has NEVER been in a fight. Now, if you take a martial artist with street fighting experience, it's a different story, but I'd bet you that 95%+ of black belts have never been in a real fight.

Now, all that aside... Martial Arts definitely can help someone defend themself against an "average opponent". I've never been in a real fight, but as long as I'm not fighting Frank Shamrock (yeah, quite an exagguration), I think I could handle myself pretty well. But if I were placed up against someone who has been in a lot of fights and is relatively strong, there's a good chance I'd take a beating. If I were to get into a fight, there are definitely styles I would feel better being fluent in to try and defend myself. Me personally, TKD is probably towards the bottom of the list, but I'm sure there are some TKD practitioners who could hold their own.

Generalisation is a bad thing.
Yes I agree that strict form is no good for street fighting but when sparing strict form need not be kept and that is where formal martial arts such as TKD Karate and Judo shine through. The majority of self defence classes teach a mixture of Jiu-Jitsu and Karate (again a generalisation). A person who has done a few months of self defence classes or kick boxing or any other hands on figting method will be able to kick the ass of any TKD or Karate practitioner. After a few years though when the technique is grasped and the practitioner can now do moves sequentialy without thinking the formal martial artist will have more of a variation of moves to do in comparison with the Kick boxer. Giving him the advantage of a larger selection of moves carried out perfectly. The truth is no martial art is absolutely the best (Bruce Lee did years of research on this subject) the only thing one can do is find one that suits them the best.

I have to agree that experience matters. Fighting/sparring experience of any kind. I've never taken martial arts (aside from that short stint with TKD before I decided I need to get in shape first), but my brother and I grew up fighting *every single day*. (We didn't get along, but we didn't want to actually injure one another, so it was more like hours and hours of daily rough sparring.)

Doesn't sound like much, but you'd be surprised. As an adult I've actually had to defend myself before against a male much much stronger than me, and I came out like a champ without even having to go for the groin.

For self defense training, I agree with karatetricker--I don't think there's anything that compares to fighting experience.

I'm very confident of my ability to defend myself, but if I wasn't, and I was worried about it, I would take a class where form wasn't a priority but full contact sparring took place every session.

I practiced Aikido for a brief period of time, so I had the chance to talk to several of the instructors about this. What they all said was that Aikido is basically useless for self defence until you get really good at it, and that it takes a long time to learn. It was still a lot of fun though, but I didn't really do it for a long enough time to go beyond the most basic movements.

I definitely agree with the taking a long time to master part, however I think once someone became efficient in Aikido, they would be VERY well off in a self-defense situation. Aikido is an EXCELLENT art and it is one I have done very little studying in but would like to in the future.

Thanks for the comments guys. I dont really want to have to spend a lot of time becoming efficient in a martial art like Aikido, partly because I dont have a lot of time or money.

So if I wanted something to teach me good self-defence and that I could practice on my own with occasional classes would kickboxing be the go?

Cheers

Marcus :cool:

Wow, this thread is an awesome wealth of knowledge on martial arts. I have never considered studying before, but my interest is really piqued now. I'll have to look into it.

I would imagine that experience is really huge, when it comes to coming out on top in a real fight. I think the shock of being hit full force by someone who doesn't like you and wants to hurt you would be really jarring and would screw up your judgement and reflexes, not to mention hurt.

No matter how strong I am, I know that I would be at a serious disadvantage against anyone who doesn't have to worry about the above because I've never been in a real fight. So I don't know the shock of being hit by someone who wants to hurt me.

Although I am rather glad I've never been in a real fight, and I would always choose walking away, I do worry about self defense, or rather coming to the defense of a friend/family member in danger.

Sounds like jiu-jitsu is the best for self defense based on what I've read in this thread. Or would a self defense class be better or any other discipline? thanks.

Sounds like jiu-jitsu is the best for self defense based on what I've read in this thread. Or would a self defense class be better or any other discipline? thanks.

Jiu Jitsu is great for self-defense. A pretty "complete" art IMO. I personally do not think one art has EVERYTHING. There are definitely several I prefer over others, but I like to "cross-train" styles to get the advantages of several. I studied TKD for 6+ years so I developed some very powerful and effective kicks. It was missing a lot for me though, so I went to the school which I still train at. The reason I have found no reason to change is because the style I study combines Shaolin Kempo, Kung-Fu and Jiu-Jitsu all into one system. Honestly, between the three, it's one of the most complete "systems" I've ever encountered. I could go into detail, but I'll spare you all the lecture.

Anyway, "self-defense" classes are usually just a "course" for several weeks that teach basic self-defense. If you really want to learn to defend yourself, get into Martial Arts and/or Kickboxing. Find a school that really utilizes "contact" in training. Where I train, you're going to get hit, and hit hard almost every class. We beat the shit out of each other (within reason) for a number of reasons. So, while I've never been in a fight, BELIEVE ME, I know what it feels like to take a beating. It still doesn't substitute a "real" fight, but it's almost as close as you can get.

Many schools breed black belts. You give them money, if you know your movements in the air, you'll get your black belt after X years. It's not like that at all schools, and it shouldn't be. I'm not trying to take anything away from those who do have a black belt at a school like that, it's just different mentalities. However, if you want to train for self-defense, just "knowing" the moves is NOT enough.

I know easily over 100 "self-defense" techniques that are required in my system. I can GUARANTEE you if I ever got into a real fight, I wouldn't use one of them move for move. That's not realistic because you can never "plan" what will happen. Being able to adjust to your opponent's movements in a split second is what will determine if you're still standing at the end. Not knowing all the moves but not knowing how to apply them.

Jiu Jitsu is great for self-defense. A pretty "complete" art IMO. I personally do not think one art has EVERYTHING.

Thanks KT, I'm gonna look into this. I agree that you wouldn't be shocked by a full-force blow based on what you wrote. Maybe I'll feel differently after I've tried marital arts. The getting hit part probably won't seem shocking anymore.

So what advantage does "real fight" experience give someone over someone who's only trained and sparred and such. Is it timing, nerves, the spontanaity of it, the fact that there is no one standing there to stop it? I'm curious to hear your take on it as your post about experience being key really made sense to me, but I'd like to know specifically how the real figher has the advantage. Maybe the info will come in useful in the future.

I agree experience counts but say neither had experience street fighting and both spared on a constant basis who would win?

Bruce Lee was obsessed with finding the ultimate martial art, he came to the conclusion that there wasnt one. So you saying that someone taught a basic handfull of moves performed well could outdo an olympic competitor in TKD? If you think yes then I will no longer carry on this comversation since we have taken over the thread for our discussion and we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Take care.

So you saying that someone taught a basic handfull of moves performed well could outdo an olympic competitor in TKD?


Not sure what you mean here. Obviously an Olympic TKD competitor would rip apart someone with no experience and only knowing a handful of basic moves...

So what advantage does "real fight" experience give someone over someone who's only trained and sparred and such. Is it timing, nerves, the spontanaity of it, the fact that there is no one standing there to stop it? I'm curious to hear your take on it as your post about experience being key really made sense to me, but I'd like to know specifically how the real figher has the advantage. Maybe the info will come in useful in the future.

It's actually hard for me to explain. A lot of my opinion comes based off just knowing Martial Artists who have been in lots of fights and hearing how at first, the MA doesn't lend that much of an advatange. The thing is, like I said, many people who study martial arts know the moves and practice them in the air, hopefully on other students, whatever, but there is just no way to simulate a REAL fight. For starters, you have no idea what hand the punch will come from, how many are coming, how fast they are coming, etc. Then if you get hit, you'll be shocked because you've never had a full-powered punch land on your face. Someone whose been in fights has the experience of landing punches on someone and probably getting them landed on himself. He will be more likely to react on the offense while a lot of martial artists would (in my guess) wait for the punch and in their head, plan to do one of their techniques, and most likely, it isn't going to work if they've never had a real punch coming full force at their face.

Like I said, I may be talking myself in circles because I can't get it into words how I want to. This is not a "Golden Rule". I'm sure several MA have "won" their first fight. However, I'd also bet for every 1 that won his first fight, 2 lost theirs. Just a complete hypothetical figure to get my point across.

Most of my feelings on this stems from all the Martial Artists I've known in my days. While I know several who would rip apart almost anyone they fought, it's because they are the ones who have been in tons of fights due to their jobs, lifestyles, etc. I can't tell you how many black belts I've seen from various styles and various schools that I've trained with and I said to myself, "man, if this person ever got attacked, they wouldn't have a prayer".

KT, did you ever see the movie Roadhouse, with Patrick Swayze? The basic story is that he studies martial arts and moves into this town and becomes a bouncer. During the movie he bascially owns everyone of the usual figher type people, other bouncers, people that look like they've been in lots of fights and stuff.

I know it's just a movie but it had given me the impression that Martial artists would have a serious advantage over regular fighters. I think the van damme and steven segal movies fueled it more and then you take the idea that people with black belts can be considered lethal weapons if they use their skills against someone. So I had this whole thing in my head about martial artists as being the ultimate in real fighting. What you are saying is definitely making me see another side to it. Thanks for your thoughts.

Roadhouse is one of those cheesy yet fun to watch movies from the eighties, check it out if you haven't seen it.

There was a Tough Man competition near us about a year ago. It's this crazy ameteur boxing competition, and if people win then they go on to semifinals and national finals and things like that.

I wasn't there, but some guys from our warehouse went. They said there was one fight between some guy who was ripped, ate an all natural organic diet, was a bodybuilder, and studied some kind of martial arts (all this acccording to the announcer) and some pot-bellied redneck guy with a bad haircut and a few missing teeth (a guy who looked like he probably enjoyed getting drunk on the weekends and having a few brawls.) The bodybuilder had entered to promote some store or gym he had (I can't remember which) that centered around living a natural lifestyle. The other guy had pretty obviously just entered because he liked to fight.

The redneck guy beat the crap out of the other guy and knocked him out in one round. The guys from the warehouse said that the crowd went absolutely nuts since it was mostly full of fellow rednecks.

Funny story, but gives an illustration of how things can go in real life. I think actual fighting might just develop certain instincts. Teaches people what will really work and what their opponent will probably do next.

I'm not proud of it, but I've been in a few fights, mostly with guys that were a lot bigger than me. I came out on top each time, but just barely - all it takes is for them to connect hard with you and the fighting drastically goes downhill from there. Some would say a whole lot of it is instinct, watching your opponent and anticipating what he'll do next, but if you want to win a fight, the best thing you can do is to give them a sound thrashing quickly and early, then just get out of there. I don't think most people's senses and reflexes -- myself included -- are developed enough for anticipation.

The movies would have you think that you can evade them for a long time and they'll tire themselves out - this is a fallacy: they will connect and you will go down. Both of you will be so pumped full of adrendaline that becoming tired is not an option, even if you are able to successfully and continuously evade the other man.

Hi all,

First a bit of background. I have tried out quite a few martial arts: TKD , Judo , Wing Chun and kickboxing all for a year along with JKD and Brazilian Jujitsu for the last 6 years. I hope this qualifys me to have a few opinions which i would like to share.

1. The art dosnt make the fighter. I have seen a 3rd dan in TKD beaten in a full contact fight by a Jujitsu stylist with a 3rd grade. The TKD guy was much fitter stronger more flexable and knew more techniques. But Jujitsu guy had his head in the right place. He won with very simple but effective techniques. I am not trying to dis TKD or support Jujitsu here. It could have been Sambo against White Crane Kung Fu.

2. The students that thrive are the ones that take responsibility for their training. The classes where everything is laid out and students follow without question just create robots that i would prefer to fight to an actual martial artist any day.

3. Most significant the class is only as good as the instructor and the student. either component lacking = time wasted. Lots of people go to a mcdojo and get nothing of worth out of it after many years. In general there are not that many bad martial arts, just bad instructors and students. Better to pick a martial art that you think is not so good but that has a good instructor, than your favourite art with a bad instructor.

4. If the instructor dosent like answering questions run away !!!

5. If after six months of training you can not picture the people around you coming to your rescue if nescessary , or you to theirs its time to leave. I say this because every good club i have been to has instilled respect and trust for fellow student very quickly and had a all for one mentality.

6. Anyone thinking about joining a Martial Arts Class but afraid to for any reason get over it. The benefits listed in this thread are the tip of the iceberg !

Bruce Lee was obsessed with being the ultimate martial artist, he came to the conclusion that no one style had all the answers. Anyone with the opinion that theirs is best is really missing the point. Why would anyone do any other if there was an ultimate ?. Its all horses for courses.

Just as an after thought we get all types of people through the dojo door. The loud people with an ego dont tend to do well. Its always the quiet or what a bad instructor might consider a hassle to teach that turn out to be the star. Anyone else noticed this ?

Wilderbeast (Sorry about the long Post)

Hey here's a fun link for you all:

US Army Combatives [Hand to Hand] Field Manual with all kinds of fun pics. Note most techniques are very simple and assume it's going to come to a ground fight with the object of killing your opponent quickly. It also assumes you will take damage from the opponent.

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/toc.htm

Ive never been in a fight and Ive never come close to getting in a fight. I started Tae Kwon Do about 2 weeks ago and so far it seems pretty fun. I am not really going because I feel I need to learn how to protect myself (My cocky, teenage, male attitude already has me convinced that I can kick anyones a** :p ). Im going because Ive always admired people involved in martial arts, the center is in a good location, and I feel it is a very "worth-my-time" goal. I would love to be able to say "I am a black belt in Tae Kwon Do".

I remember when the ultimate fighting championship came out. I was expecting to see these guys in karate or TKD or kung fu do some crazy moves and whip ass. What I saw, repeatedly, is the guys who were wrestlers and grapplers consistantly take down the traditional martial artists, get them on the ground, and then either choke them out or put them in some horribly painful arm breaking lock that forced them to tap out.

I remember when the ultimate fighting championship came out. I was expecting to see these guys in karate or TKD or kung fu do some crazy moves and whip ass. What I saw, repeatedly, is the guys who were wrestlers and grapplers consistantly take down the traditional martial artists, get them on the ground, and then either choke them out or put them in some horribly painful arm breaking lock that forced them to tap out.

Yup, a traditional Martial Artist will rarely ever stand a chance against an "ultimate fighter".

Yup, a traditional Martial Artist will rarely ever stand a chance against an "ultimate fighter".
True, in an "ultimate fighting" setting. That statement can go the other way and say the ultimate fighter has no chance against a Taekwondo fighter..(in a taekwondo match)

You cant predict by ones style..it depends on the individual-especially when there are no rules of the street.

A traditional Martial Artist should rarely ever get into that situation. I think if one gets into a confrontation with another Martial artist, most times they find out that they have this in common and become buddies
.

A UFC guy will be prepared for the "sport" of UFC. A traditional martial artist will be prepared to inflict mortal damage. If you ever take notice the UFC no longer allows kicking while a guy is down. They never allowed biting or eye gouging. They have rules which makes it a sport. They allowed just about anything when they first started out and people got really hurt. If the UFC had continued an anything goes attitude it would be a much better representation of what works amongst fighters.

It mainly evolved into the theory that going to the ground is the best thing to do because of the rules the fighters are given. If you are confronted by more than one guy the last thing you want to do is roll on the floor with one of them while the other one kicks in your head.

Most importantly why train yourself to fight fighters unless you yourself intend to fight them in sport? Any person that has dedicated their time to UFC training or traditional arts is going to go out of their way to avoid a real confrontation.

All of you guys have very good knowledge on different Martial Arts, but where would you stand on Gracie Jiu Jitsu or Jeet Kun Do? I know these are made famous by the people who created them i.e Bruce Lee and Carlos Gracie or Royce Gracie (UFC). Ive got centres extremely close to me and was always thinking of taking it up.
Basically i just want to be able to defend myself if a situation arose, have the knowledge that id be able to atleast hold my own in a fight.
Would these be good arts to learn? With so many out there its so difficult to sift through different concepts and teachings.

Chose the one that suits you best.

True, in an "ultimate fighting" setting. That statement can go the other way and say the ultimate fighter has no chance against a Taekwondo fighter..(in a taekwondo match)

You cant predict by ones style..it depends on the individual-especially when there are no rules of the street.

A traditional Martial Artist should rarely ever get into that situation. I think if one gets into a confrontation with another Martial artist, most times they find out that they have this in common and become buddies
.

Okay... I am talking street fight here. A top ultimate fighter would rip apart a traditional TKD practiotioner in a fight, believe me.

As for two martial artists who are about to fight becoming friends... I find that statment extremely unrealistic. :whistle:

I think maybe we should kill the pissing contest. Instead maybe concentrate on what we love in each discepline we follow. Work hard and keep training!

Okay... I am talking street fight here. A top ultimate fighter would rip apart a traditional TKD practiotioner in a fight, belie vem e.
OK, - IF, -you believe in your stereotypes. You sound like some kid arguing that Superman would beat Mighty Mouse because one's a real guy and the other's a cartoon(?)
People arent Pokemon characters....you cant play them as such. The street is not a level playing field. Nobody wins.

As for 2 martial artists who are abotu to fight becoming friends... I find that statment extremely unrealistic.
You watch too many movies... "My Kung fu is better than your Kung Fu..I accept the Challenge...Hwiiii-iyah!"

Please note: I am quite drunk right now
and you wonder how you got ripped apart by an "ULTIMATE"(woww..oohh..)Fighter.

Senseless violence should be avoided at all costs. There are laws against that, nowadays.. :-)

OK, - IF, -you believe in your stereotypes. You sound like some kid arguing that Superman would beat Mighty Mouse because one's a real guy and the other's a cartoon(?)
People arent Pokemon characters....you cant play them as such. The street is not a level playing field. Nobody wins.

Perhaps "nobody wins" in reality, but that comment made no sense. Technically, someone does.


You watch too many movies... "My Kung fu is better than your Kung Fu..I accept the Challenge...Hwiiii-iyah!"

I watch too many movies? I mean, come on...

Two guys are at a bar about to kill each other, they both step back into a recognizeable martial arts stance...

Guy 1: "WAIT! We are both Martial Artists, we must not do this my brother."
Guy 2: "You are right, I apologize for my aggression. Even though you slept with my girlfriend, we must let this slide."

Obviously a very exaggurated situation. Regardless, I think my point was made. And if not, perhaps I'm not the one watching too many movies.

In the real world, fights happen and they happen a lot. Hell, I was at a bar last night and AT LEAST 4 fights went down.


and you wonder how you got ripped apart by an "ULTIMATE"(woww..oohh..)Fighter.

Senseless violence should be avoided at all costs. There are laws against that, nowadays.. :-)

I'm not arguing with that. Believe me, I've walked away from dozens of fights, and that is no exagguration. I've yet to ever lay a hand on someone and don't plan to. I'm sorry me being drunk automatically leads you to assume I am causing "senseless violence", I'll keep that in mind the next time I go to drink a beer.


This debate has reached beyond pointless. Go ahead and make your last stab against what I just said and we'll end it there. No sense in clogging what was a resourceful thread up with utter junk anymore. Yes, I made a stereotype. Will every "ultimate fighter" win against a traditional MA on the street? Nope. Most will though.

All of you guys have very good knowledge on different Martial Arts, but where would you stand on Gracie Jiu Jitsu or Jeet Kun Do? I know these are made famous by the people who created them i.e Bruce Lee and Carlos Gracie or Royce Gracie (UFC). Ive got centres extremely close to me and was always thinking of taking it up.
Basically i just want to be able to defend myself if a situation arose, have the knowledge that id be able to atleast hold my own in a fight.
Would these be good arts to learn? With so many out there its so difficult to sift through different concepts and teachings.

Both are great styles to study. Extremely different as Gracie Jiu Jitsu is more of a grappling art while Jeet Kune Do is a more traditional fighting art. Me personally, I'd do the JKD but I know many people who love Gracie's. The best way to go about it is take an intro week or month at each school and see what you enjoy better. :tu:

All of you guys have very good knowledge on different Martial Arts, but where would you stand on Gracie Jiu Jitsu or Jeet Kun Do? I know these are made famous by the people who created them i.e Bruce Lee and Carlos Gracie or Royce Gracie (UFC). Ive got centres extremely close to me and was always thinking of taking it up.
Basically i just want to be able to defend myself if a situation arose, have the knowledge that id be able to atleast hold my own in a fight.
Would these be good arts to learn? With so many out there its so difficult to sift through different concepts and teachings.

Gracie Jiu Jitsu is fantastic for what it is and that is a fighting sport. I would hate to have to fight a Jiu Jitsu guy in a fair fight, even if I won I would walk away hurting. With that said it is defenseless against more than one opponent as it is a ground-based art.

Jeet Kune Do is not an art but Bruce Lee's method of saying whatever works for an individual is in a way his Jeet Kune Do. The guys that claim they can teach you JKD are really just teaching you Wing Chun and Boxing because that is what worked for Bruce with his combination of the two. He also fashioned his movements from fencing. His system can and does work but only for someone that is fast and strong. To train this way and only this way your entire life could potentially lead to injury and an art that is useless to an older you.

Now for myself I do Tae Kwon Do because it is a good striking art that keeps my basic strength, stretching, and range of movement (not to mention fantastic cardio) in order. Tae Kwon Do is a hard art and easy to be proficient at in a short amount of time. To me it is the ultimate in introductory martial arts, and at the same time not to be taken lightly as nothing more than introductory. I continue to be challenged by it as I work towards my 3rd degree. To compliment my Tae Kwon Do and prepare for eventual old age I practice Bagua, which is an internal soft art that will take decades to even get close to mastering. Some people are not interested in dedicating their lifetime to a martial art and you only get out of it what you are willing to put in.

I understand that ground fighting and grappling skills would be a useful addition to any martial artists skill set but I just can't get past the fact that you have to roll around on the floor with another guy for extended periods of time. Call me a homophobe if you want but to me it just sounds........yucky.

For this reason I would probably just go with JKD.

I understand that ground fighting and grappling skills would be a useful addition to any martial artists skill set but I just can't get past the fact that you have to roll around on the floor with another guy for extended periods of time. Call me a homophobe if you want but to me it just sounds........yucky.

For this reason I would probably just go with JKD.

I was hesitant about that, too, when I started my jiu-jitsu class a little over a month ago, but I got over it quickly. It was a bit weird for me at first, but it's not like people in the class are giggling or anything. And you don't really think about it much beyond "crap, how the hell do I get out of this guy's guard?! Oww, my elbow!" and so forth. :p

Besides, there are cute girls there, too. ;) (And so far, they can all kick my ass!)

^^^ In reply to TKDKevin

While JKD is considered by many to not really be a true style, I am almost positive it has been officially declared one. I'll look for literature later.

I was hesitant about that, too, when I started my jiu-jitsu class a little over a month ago, but I got over it quickly. It was a bit weird for me at first, but it's not like people in the class are giggling or anything. And you don't really think about it much beyond "crap, how the hell do I get out of this guy's guard?! Oww, my elbow!" and so forth. :p


Question: So when you spar do you start on the ground or is it standing? Does someone shoot in a hook a leg like in wrestling to bring their opponent down? Is there any stand up fighting at all or is all immediately to the ground?

Question: So when you spar do you start on the ground or is it standing? Does someone shoot in a hook a leg like in wrestling to bring their opponent down? Is there any stand up fighting at all or is all immediately to the ground?

The class I take is a mix of stand up fighting (Kyokushin Karate and Muay Thai), takedowns (Judo, Wrestling), and ground fighting (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Judo). Our sparring ranges over all those. Sometimes it's as "simple" as fighting for grip, other times it starts standing up and goes until someone is down and taps out.

Just to whet your appetite, here (http://www.judoinfo.com/animate.htm)'s a lot of judo techniques. I've only learned a few of these and those still take a lot of practice for me.

I just can't get past the fact that you have to roll around on the floor with another guy for extended periods of time. Call me a homophobe if you want but to me it just sounds........yucky.



I dont know if you've been in a real fight but fights generally begin with a distance between the opponents at punching distance and more often then not will culminate in fighting on the ground. This is why I looked into Gracie jiu jitsu. Real fights arent like in the movies where two guys duke it out blow for blow till the last man standing! Dont get me wrong I can more than handle myself when it comes to fighting either by walking away or if I have no choice going for it. But dont discredit the fact that 'rolling around' will ultimately help you fighting a much larger guy, as on the ground your both equal, no one has an advantage. Yes it may seem yucky but your both on equal footing.

I dont know if you've been in a real fight but fights generally begin with a distance between the opponents at punching distance and more often then not will culminate in fighting on the ground. This is why I looked into Gracie jiu jitsu. Real fights arent like in the movies where two guys duke it out blow for blow till the last man standing! Dont get me wrong I can more than handle myself when it comes to fighting either by walking away or if I have no choice going for it. But dont discredit the fact that 'rolling around' will ultimately help you fighting a much larger guy, as on the ground your both equal, no one has an advantage. Yes it may seem yucky but your both on equal footing.

Oops just realised you were talking about a class and not a real fight. my bad. Yes i am a total spaz and what........?

If you are confronted by more than one guy the last thing you want to do is roll on the floor with one of them while the other one kicks in your head.

As opposed to fighting them standing up? You will likely lose any fight with multiple opponents unless they are the three stoges. This type of situation calls for Run-Fu.

As opposed to fighting them standing up? You will likely lose any fight with multiple opponents unless they are the three stoges. This type of situation calls for Run-Fu.

:lol: Run-Fu... awesome!


My quick $.02 on multiple opponents...

Grappling arts are not as practical against multiple opponents because as was said, fighting one guy on the ground while the rest are standing up is almost an impossible to win situation unless you are one of the Gracie's.

Standing arts would be more advantageous here if you know how to handle multiple attackers. Allowing yourself to be encircled means "see you in the hospital". If you can use them against each other (in several ways) then you definitely can stand a chance. Of course, this does not come from my own experiences, but it does come from the mouths of people who have had to fight outnumbered.

Here's some good videos (http://judoinfo.com/video5.htm) on martial arts. The best ones are "Why Judo is Better Than Karate", "Tai Chi Masters", and "Anyone Can Learn Karate".

As opposed to fighting them standing up? You will likely lose any fight with multiple opponents unless they are the three stoges. This type of situation calls for Run-Fu.

Exactly, which is much easier when you are standing than if you are rolling around with one of them. I am not suggesting that standing and duking it out with one guy is a good idea at all. Winning to me is surviving an encounter even if that means slamming the closest one to you and running or running from the start. I train in martial arts because I do not like to fight.

However, when I train we spar with two or more attackers to get used to the idea of having two moving targets that are attacking you. The few real scenarios I have been in, the second guy starts to rethink his bothering you at all after you hit his friend. Not saying it is infallible and it is truly better than nothing at all.

^^^ In reply to TKDKevin

While JKD is considered by many to not really be a true style, I am almost positive it has been officially declared one. I'll look for literature later.


Regardless of a board or whomever certifying JKD as a "true style" it is still a mixture of Wing Chun, boxing, and fencing (nothing special). Bruce Lee's Wing Chun was okay at best. He was a great self-promoter though, fashioning his trash talk after Mohammed Ali. He is (arguably) solely responsible for getting martial arts noticed and into the public view. I've read his books and trained with a teacher taught by one of his original students, then came to my own conclusion that his methods were impractical for life long use. I'd much rather learn straight up Wing Chun and take from it what works for me, not what worked for Bruce.

... But dont discredit the fact that 'rolling around' will ultimately help you fighting a much larger guy, as on the ground your both equal, no one has an advantage. Yes it may seem yucky but your both on equal footing.

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to discredit anyone or any martial art but the above statement is not entirely true. The ground may give equal advantage just until the point where the other guy's buddy comes up and kicks you in the head.

Honestly though, I would probably be attending a judo or jujitsu school to supplement my praying mantis school if it wasn't soooooo expensive.

^^^ In reply to TKDKevin

While JKD is considered by many to not really be a true style, I am almost positive it has been officially declared one. I'll look for literature later.

I did "JKD" for two years here in the UK before injuring my back, and plan to return now I seem to be getting back in shape.
Currently JKD is a bit of a joke and has become labelled as a style, mainly in the US. There are also two schools of thought, "concepts" and actually doing it, and the concepts people are diluting the message by going into unpractical things for self defence and examining philosophy.
I learned it as scientific street fighting and self defence from an instructor I consider to be excellent. He's in the JKD council thing, but he makes no secret of the fact he feels it has become a joke due to the large number of schools who teach rubbish and rake in cash because of Bruce Lee's name. Bruce Lee regretted giving his style a name, I guess that is why.
What I learned was what worked for me worked for me, I was shown techniques etc from a wide range of styles, and boxing style punches. The techniques I use are the ones that feel natural and right for me, the easiest and most economic for me presonally, nothing as prescribed as a style.
As you have so rightly pointed out Karateticker, it's better to judge what you will learn by the instructor than the style. If you have confidence in the instructor and you know that he knows what he is doing, then go for it.
I have been in a few fights, and drawing on your earlier posts, I think what you were trying to get across is most martial artists get caught in "a paralysis of analysis" trying to think what technique to use. More basically, if you train to score points in a competition then that's what you'll do, if you train to defend yourself and hurt people then you'll do that.

^^^ Very well said. :tu:

Indeed that was well said and similar to what I stated above. JKD was simply not for me after I had already taken TKD as my strong basis and starting point. Also the most important thing I can again express is that Bruce Lee took out the techniques that didn't work for him, leaving behind the tried and true methods that worked for generations of Wing Chun practitioners with various body types.

After experiencing both systems even my JKD teacher agreed that TKD is better organized and planned out as an introductory art that increases in difficulty as you progress in rank. JKD and other arts on the other hand the techniques are somewhat thrown at you, and it potentially takes much longer to grasp the concepts as a newcomer. TKD, is designed to be taught to everyone, it increases in difficulty and skill as the practitioner progresses.

Let me get this straight. Your JKD instructor says that TKD is more structured and better organized then the system that he himself teaches. The techniques in JKD and other arts are just thrown at you!? But TKD on the other hand is designed to be taught to everyone!?

WOW! sounds like TKD is the greatest thing ever.

I know a guy who became a TKD blackbelt in just 2 years.

Now he studies Krav Maga and guess what he became a certified instructor in only 6 months.

Let me get this straight. Your JKD instructor says that TKD is more structured and better organized then the system that he himself teaches. The techniques in JKD and other arts are just thrown at you!? But TKD on the other hand is designed to be taught to everyone!?

WOW! sounds like TKD is the greatest thing ever.

I know a guy who became a TKD blackbelt in just 2 years.

Being a black belt is when you truly start to learn any Martial Art. Everything up to that is just the foundational material. Given enough dedication (and free time, and experience in other arts), such an accomplishment is certainly doable.

Now he studies Krav Maga and guess what he became a certified instructor in only 6 months.

That makes me suspicious, not necessarily about KM, but about whomever he learned from. There are too many "certification mills" that just require a paper test to get a cert. Take such claims with a grain of salt. (I'm not saying it's impossible, just improbable.)

Let me get this straight. Your JKD instructor says that TKD is more structured and better organized then the system that he himself teaches. The techniques in JKD and other arts are just thrown at you!? But TKD on the other hand is designed to be taught to everyone!?

WOW! sounds like TKD is the greatest thing ever.

I know a guy who became a TKD blackbelt in just 2 years.

Now he studies Krav Maga and guess what he became a certified instructor in only 6 months.

Please read my posts carefully before you respond, as I don't believe you understood what you were responding to. The JKD guy I was training with agreed with me that TKD is better organized as an "introductory" art that gives you a strong basis on which to learn more complicated and yes unorganized (in their teaching) arts.

In some TKD schools it is possible to get to blackbelt in two years if you put in the time and effort. Of course there are also schools that you can "buy" a blackbelt unfortunately. The people who do this are often deceiving themselves as much as anyone else, and of course cannot teach what they supposedly know.

No offense to your friend and his Krav Maga endeavor, but any system that takes only 6 months to be qualified to instruct the entire system I find highly questionable. That goes for any military system that trains with guns 99% of the time. The moves rarely consist of anything more than a Hail Mary to get to the next loaded gun.

Please read my posts carefully before you respond, as I don't believe you understood what you were responding to. The JKD guy I was training with agreed with me that TKD is better organized as an "introductory" art that gives you a strong basis on which to learn more complicated and yes unorganized (in their teaching) arts.

In some TKD schools it is possible to get to blackbelt in two years if you put in the time and effort. Of course there are also schools that you can "buy" a blackbelt unfortunately. The people who do this are often deceiving themselves as much as anyone else, and of course cannot teach what they supposedly know.

No offense to your friend and his Krav Maga endeavor, but any system that takes only 6 months to be qualified to instruct the entire system I find highly questionable. That goes for any military system that trains with guns 99% of the time. The moves rarely consist of anything more than a Hail Mary to get to the next loaded gun.

I understood your post just fine. You obviously think that TKD is the SHIZ. And I think it's NOT. What exactly is the application for a 540 spin kick anyway? I also think that any school that you can get a black belt from in two years is all hype. HYPE HYPE HYPE!

One of my TKD instructors told us, in Korea, you can become a black belt in 1 year. Said you train everyday and they correct mistakes with a whip/switch..... Ill take my time :)

I understood your post just fine. You obviously think that TKD is the SHIZ. And I think it's NOT. What exactly is the application for a 540 spin kick anyway? I also think that any school that you can get a black belt from in two years is all hype. HYPE HYPE HYPE!

TKD is the SHIZ as you put it for someone who has never experienced any martial arts, as well as another arts practitioner who wants to improve their kicking abilities.

If you can tell me what a 540 spin kick is I will attempt to tell you an application. However, if it involves spinning around more than once to kick it must be modern TKD and more than likely is more flash than anything. I train in classic Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do which has its roots in Funakoshi's Karate system and kicking elements of native Korean/Chinese arts.

I would have to agree that any school which you can earn a belt in 2 years or less is most likely hype. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree black belt and another 3 years to get my 2nd degree. This fall will be another 3 years and I will be testing for my 3rd degree. Not including a year in between I took off to try other arts before coming back.

TKD is the SHIZ as you put it for someone who has never experienced any martial arts, as well as another arts practitioner who wants to improve their kicking abilities.

Yes, you will definitely improve your kicking abilities with TKD. However, you improve aspects that are useless for street defense IMO. Should I ever have to throw a kick on the street, it will never reach higher than the midsection. Can I kick to the head? Better than most. But it's useless on the street. TKD focuses too much on the height of the kicks rather than the power and execution. Of course, this is not going to be at EVERY TKD school, it's just a generalization from the few I have studied at. Perhaps a poor sample?

I'm not trying to bash TKD. After all, it is the first art I ever studied and it gave me an excellent foundation to build upon. You could blame the school itself or perhaps my age at the time (9-14) but the TKD I studied was all about kicking and offered little to no self-defense application. I consider TKD more of a "sport" art than a self-defense art and there is nothing wrong with that. TKD practitioners are often excellent at sparring and can throw some beautiful kicks. I just often question their ability to defend themselves when the gear is off and the enemy is not 3+ feet away.


If you can tell me what a 540 spin kick is I will attempt to tell you an application. However, if it involves spinning around more than once to kick it must be modern TKD and more than likely is more flash than anything. I train in classic Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do which has its roots in Funakoshi's Karate system and kicking elements of native Korean/Chinese arts.

A 540 is where you do a "tornado" kick and land on the kicking leg. I practiced "Extreme martial arts" or "Sport karate" for about 2-3 years in which all we did were these kinds of "tricks" (hence the username). They are awesome kicks and very flashy, but completely useless on the street. Most of them came from arts like TKD, Wushu and Capoeira.


I would have to agree that any school which you can earn a belt in 2 years or less is most likely hype. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree black belt and another 3 years to get my 2nd degree. This fall will be another 3 years and I will be testing for my 3rd degree. Not including a year in between I took off to try other arts before coming back.

I shall agree. A new martial artist should NOT earn a black belt in 2 years. If he were coming from another style as a black belt and already had a good foundation, I can see the process being faster, but in general, I think 4-6 years is a fair amount of time. Although, everyone progresses at different rates.

Yes, you will definitely improve your kicking abilities with TKD. However, you improve aspects that are useless for street defense IMO. Should I ever have to throw a kick on the street, it will never reach higher than the midsection. Can I kick to the head? Better than most. But it's useless on the street. TKD focuses too much on the height of the kicks rather than the power and execution. Of course, this is not going to be at EVERY TKD school, it's just a generalization from the few I have studied at. Perhaps a poor sample?

I rarely attempt a kick anywhere but the mid section unless a true opportunity presents itself, such as a fighter that fights with his head too far in. Sadly many TKD organizations with orders from the Korean government have changed so much of the art to distance it from its Japanese basis, that it has lost the majority of its usefulness. Too many changes to get the art noticed has resulted in a severely watered down art. Schools like mine are almost extinct because of this. With modern TKD the techniques don't even mesh into one thing. At our school the things you learn in forms, three steps, and basics can all be used in sparring and vise versa.

I'm not trying to bash TKD. After all, it is the first art I ever studied and it gave me an excellent foundation to build upon. You could blame the school itself or perhaps my age at the time (9-14) but the TKD I studied was all about kicking and offered little to no self-defense application. I consider TKD more of a "sport" art than a self-defense art and there is nothing wrong with that. TKD practitioners are often excellent at sparring and can throw some beautiful kicks. I just often question their ability to defend themselves when the gear is off and the enemy is not 3+ feet away.

My training at age 12 and my training now at 23 is vastly different as I just didn't grasp and appreciate everything at that age.

We spar in the traditional manner (no pads) with only helmets on if we fall, and lots of hand technique and sweeps are thrown in. It never fails when I spar a sport TKD guy and have to give him a light kick on his back because he is only used to covering his "scoring zones.


A 540 is where you do a "tornado" kick and land on the kicking leg. I practiced "Extreme martial arts" or "Sport karate" for about 2-3 years in which all we did were these kinds of "tricks" (hence the username). They are awesome kicks and very flashy, but completely useless on the street. Most of them came from arts like TKD, Wushu and Capoeira.

I remember trying some basic jump spinning kicks in my younger days (I had seen in movies) in class and my instructor telling me to try them on the heavy bag. He let me feel first hand that jumping kicks were not practical.

I just re-read my post and I must apologize for the tone. I assumed that all TKD is "sport TKD". My bad.

I just re-read my post and I must apologize for the tone. I assumed that all TKD is "sport TKD". My bad.

No problem, I should have made my point clearer to begin with. It is a task I am often faced with to try prove to people that not all TKD is Hollywood aerobics. The way I tend to look at it is in the same way that China calls all of the vastly different arts under their country Kung Fu, including everything from Tai Chi to Wing Chun. Here is a link to my associations website for anyone that may be interested: http://www.classictaekwondo.com/

Personally I think too many people/schools trade on the martial artist image of the Bruce Lee movies. These people are in it to make money and can do so because of the exposure Bruce Lee gave the martial arts. Many of them aren't even qualified or decent practioners, but they can fool people easily due to the mystique most beginners and uneducated people believe exists. There are so many schools like this now that the result is it is difficult for beginners to truly know what they should be looking for, what is achievable, practical and useful. They are essentially the martial arts equivalent of dodgy chop-shop car salesmen.

I watched this video earlier today, its pretty friggin awesome! This guy shows great use of those high kicks that wouldnt get normal use in a fight :p .
http://www.sherdog.com/videos/videos.asp?v_id=103
Its a pretty big file, so be patient.

I've been following the UFC for quite awhile and it's interesting to note the evolution of the sport. In the beginning, the Gracie family sent their worst specimen (Royce) out to prove to the world that Gracie jiu-jitsu could beat any other existing fighting style and to make some money through pay per view. They made him take on people of all sizes, knowing that none of them had technique so he could choke or armbar all of them and redeem himself after several humiliating losses in Brazil.

In the beginning it was a joke. There was a guy who actually went in the ring with one boxing glove on. There was the 600 lb guy who got kicked in the head, causing the karate dude to break his foot. Each fight went to the ground because none of the competitor's besides Gracie, Ken Shamrock, or Dan 'the beast' Severn knew how to prevent a takedown, or strike someone who's shooting in, or fight from ground.

As time has gone by, weight categories have been established because the bigger guys have developed skill. It's not enough anymore to be a jiu-jitsu fighter because you've got to take into account the guys like Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture who can wrestle, box, and most importantly defend the take-down attempts of the grapplers.

In the most recent UFC's, there have been more and more fights ending by decision, and the sport is resembling boxing more each time out. With the exception of the last UFC which had quite a few nice endings like Shamrocks knee to Kimo's chin and Frank Mir breaking Tim Silvia's arm.

It seems the most valuable skill now is the ability to defend against BJJ techniques. And pure boxing tends to be the result when a groundfighter is hesitant about shooting in on a guy. Hence the result of the Tito v Chuck fight a few months back. Tito had to box Chuck because Chuck is very hard to take down, and Chuck's a much better boxer so he beat Tito's ass. To the outsider, it looked like the UFC had become straight up pugilism.

My main reason for wanting to study martial arts is to develop discipline. Both mental and physical. That's by far my biggest reason.

Freemason,

I have scanned through this entire thread and I do not believe that anyone has suggested that you look into yoga. While not a martial art, it would satisfy your desire to develop discipline, both mental and physical. Yoga is also a great complement to any martial art.

Also, there has been a lot of discussion as to the relative combat effectiveness of the various martial art styles. I would like to suggest that the specific instructor(s), training methods and environment, and student are what matter in this respect, not the name used to describe the style being studied.