Anyone used this, The revies ive seen for this stuff on the MP forum is immense. Apparently this stuff really does give you "the pump", and may increase acne 2-3 fold if you suffer from acne. One person actually stating that the pump is so strong he had to cut his workouts short. There seems to be alot of varation in regards to dosage, is this product worth it not just for the pump but delivery of nutrients? and is it best taken pre, during or post workout?

Anyone used this, The revies ive seen for this stuff on the MP forum is immense. Apparently this stuff really does give you "the pump", and may increase acne 2-3 fold if you suffer from acne. One person actually stating that the pump is so strong he had to cut his workouts short. There seems to be alot of varation in regards to dosage, is this product worth it not just for the pump but delivery of nutrients? and is it best taken pre, during or post workout?
Be careful when reading reviews.

I would take their recommended doseage pre workout. Then test what happens, so that you know if you need to increase/decrease or even stop using it.

Don't be a sucker for teh pump... ;)

Be careful when reading reviews.

I would take their recommended doseage pre workout. Then test what happens, so that you know if you need to increase/decrease or even stop using it.

Don't be a sucker for teh pump... ;)

No the pump doesnt bother me lol, I would use it for the delivery of nutrients PWO, however the reviews on the pump can apparently increase strength through physcology, you know of appearing larger.

"Pump" is a mis-used term.

The actual effect of Arginine (which is the basis for ALL No products) is vasodilation of the arteries, causing better nutrient uptake ( to put in simple terms). Plus.....increased Nitric Oxide.


Whether you "pump' at high reps or do a Powerlifter routine or a HIT routine....the effect is the same...nutrient delivery. Which should be the main focus....not how big you can get your muscles to look in a workout from a "pump" session. Although from a nutrient-delivery standpoint the pump isn't going to hurt you.

I've never used that particular brand though.... sounds like there'll be lots of other things in it as well as Arginine...check the label carefully.

"Pump" is a mis-used term.

The actual effect of Arginine (which is the basis for ALL No products) is vasodilation of the arteries, causing better nutrient uptake ( to put in simple terms). Plus.....increased Nitric Oxide.


Whether you "pump' at high reps or do a Powerlifter routine or a HIT routine....the effect is the same...nutrient delivery. Which should be the main focus....not how big you can get your muscles to look in a workout from a "pump" session. Although from a nutrient-delivery standpoint the pump isn't going to hurt you.

I've never used that particular brand though.... sounds like there'll be lots of other things in it as well as Arginine...check the label carefully.

http://www.myprotein.co.uk/bulk-powders/amino-acids/arginine-ethyl-ester-hcl/
Theres the link nothing "added or taken away", 100%Arginine Ethyl Ester

Its the same with the Arginine Alpha-Ketogluterate

The "Ester" and the "Alpha-Ketoglutarate" are supposedly formulated to make the Arginine work more effectively.

Citrulline Malate might be the better choice....because straight L-Arginine has a tendency to be impaired quite a bit in the intestines....which means not all of your Arginine is going to make it into your system.

Citrulline Malate does not have this problem...and is as good as L-Arginine.

Anyway...the "Ester" and "Alpha-Ketoglutarate" versions are both designed to attempt to circumvent the uptake problem, making it more effective.

pump can apparently increase strength through physcology, you know of appearing larger.

:confused:

You look larger, so you're stronger? That doesn't make any sense.

:confused:

You look larger, so you're stronger? That doesn't make any sense.

Makes perfect sense to me, some people have reported that the increase of muscular size due to the "pump" has enabled them to lift larger weights whilst using arginine as a result gaining an increase in strength in comparison to before they started using arginine. Its a mind muscle connection thing IMO. Furthermore to a certain extent strength can relate as much to mind as it is to matter, i.e its not always about how big a guy which can determine strength, physcology plays a major part in lifting.

[QUOTE=CuTe PoIsOn;712364]Anyone used this, The revies ive seen for this stuff on the MP forum is immense. Apparently this stuff really does give you "the pump", and may increase acne 2-3 fold if you suffer from acne. QUOTE]

Well, I am glad I decided to look on this thread though I was coming to this forum wrt another matter.

I just started taking Arginine pre & post workout since I am just getting back to lifting weights.

This past week I started breaking out quite a bit around my face. I have a tendency to break out with things that can cause people to break out. It's usually some product I am using on my hair or washing y face with or something like that. SO I thought there might have been some chemical change in my detergent or something.

But I wonder if it is the Arginine?

I took it before -- though that was a couple of years ago before I had to stop lifting. I remember at one point breaking out and I happened to see my dermatologist on another matter -- and he said the breakouts were like those associated with steroids. I had been taking 7-keto which is supposed to be a non--steroidal component of DH EA. I figured that was the cause of the breakouts -- but maybe it was the arginine.

I am not able to find anything through Google except on an old thread from here on JSF a post by Philph (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showpost.php?p=360476&postcount=5)

L-Arginine is just what HM said. In fact it is used instead of Viagra by some men as it is cheaper and does somewhat the same thing - dilate the micro blood vessels. (Ok, I can see it now. All the guys that read this will be swallowing L-arginine pills by the handful. :lol:)

My wife takes it because she has blockage in her micro bloodvessels that gives her angina. We found out when I hooked her up with a doctor at Univ. of Pittsburgh Medical Center that was commissioned by NIH to do a study on women's hearts. He said that L-Arginine can be used instead of the more expensive medications as it does the same thing.

There are two ways to get more blood flowing. Thin the blood (e.g. via aspirin) or enlarge the blood vessels. L-Arginine does this very well. This is also why it speeds up recovery of micro-tears in the muscle tissue which occurs when we lift weights.

I think it is one the better supplements available to use and has proven benefits.

In normal, healthy adults arginine does jack shit!!!

DO NOT waste your money on excess arginine.

Depends what you call "healthy".

A healthy 20 year old is basically by default healthier than a 50 year old.

Parts are all newer with less mileage.....:)

Still on warranty....

Great elasticity
Hormones are peak
Testo is good
Arteries are ultra pliable
All body nutrients and chemicals at peak


Whereas us older folks...(ahem).....(cough)....(**)....:whistle:


Whether it causes Acne or not I don't know......I've never had Acne.

But I'm a "healthy" male.....have been for years before I took Arginine....but it works for me so I'm going to keep using it.

In normal, healthy adults arginine does jack shit!!!

DO NOT waste your money on excess arginine.

So it doesnt deliver nutrients to the working muscles any quicker?

So it doesnt deliver nutrients to the working muscles any quicker?

Basically it dilates your blood vessels. I'll leave it to the medical experts whether to draw the conclusion that it delivers nutrients to your muscles faster.

I do know that my wife will get angine (heart pain) if she doesn't take her L-arginine and the angina goes away when she does take it. Its a simple cause and effect.

There is no argument about what L-arginine does physically in the body. Like HM said, if it gives you a benefit, then use it, if it doesn't, then don't. That is how I see the use of supplements. At my age, I'll take all the help I can get.

Here is a link (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-arginine.html)to NIH's Medline Plus on Arginine.

It lists and evaluates the uses of Arginine value based on the conclusions of research -- which seems pretty extensive. The lower grades may be because either the research is too inclusive at this point or there is limited or no demostrated effect from Arginine.

The grading is A, B, C, D and the report follows with some warnings about its use. None of them are wrt Acne -- but there are some posts on other sites by other individuals asking about whether arginine can cause acne.

For all you guys quaffing Arginine down your throat for better performance:

Erectile dysfunction -- Grade C

Early studies have shown that arginine supplements may help treat erectile dysfunction (ED) in men with low nitrate levels in their blood or urine. A combination of L-arginine, glutamate, and yohimbine hydrochloride has been used to treat ED. However, because a combination product was used, and yohimbine hydrochloride is an FDA-approved therapy for this condition, the effects of arginine alone are unknown. More research is needed with arginine alone.

WRT what Chris Mason says re:

Exercise performance Grade D

Overall, currently available study results conclude that arginine supplementation does not improve exercise performance.

Here's a link on how to pronounce L'Arginine (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8027714032105351921)

HevyMetal -- you might want to check out the report wrt to your wife's condition. There are several different items related to the heart on the list -- I am not sure if any might be relavent to your wife's situation.

Anyway -- I will stop the arginine and see if my skin clears up. Then after it is clear for a while -- I will start again to see what happens. It seemed to happen pretty quick -- like within a couple of weeks.

Justitia...it's MauiDudes wife who has the condition..not mine.


The information I have is that:-

Nitric Oxide (besides it's ability to raise the flagpole) improves the deliveryy of hormones,oxygen and nutrients to the muscles.

Arginine has been shown to significantly raise GH levels at dose of 5 to 10 grams.

It showed significant strength and muscle improvements in trained subjects.

It also enhances bodyfat loss.

Citrulline Malate (a close relative) does the same thing and also enhances ammonia removal from the body. Plus it increases level of ATP and Creatine Phosphate in the muscles.


So...the bottom line is....did you find it worked for you?

In my case I get a better workout......not even thinking about the erectile side of it as I don't have a problem with that anyway.

A vasodilator is a vasodilator.....regardless of one's age.

Justitia...it's MauiDudes wife who has the condition..not mine.


The information I have is that:-

Nitric Oxide (besides it's ability to raise the flagpole) improves the deliveryy of hormones,oxygen and nutrients to the muscles.

Arginine has been shown to significantly raise GH levels at dose of 5 to 10 grams.

It showed significant strength and muscle improvements in trained subjects.

It also enhances bodyfat loss.

Citrulline Malate (a close relative) does the same thing and also enhances ammonia removal from the body. Plus it increases level of ATP and Creatine Phosphate in the muscles.


So...the bottom line is....did you find it worked for you?

In my case I get a better workout......not even thinking about the erectile side of it as I don't have a problem with that anyway.

A vasodilator is a vasodilator.....regardless of one's age.

So arginine isnt so worthless after all

Here is a quote from the NIH article that Justitia posted (thanks for the info Justitia:

Coronary artery disease / angina

Early evidence from several studies suggests that arginine taken by mouth or by injection may improve exercise tolerance and blood flow in arteries of the heart. Benefits have been shown in some patients with coronary artery disease and chest pain (called angina). However, more research is needed to confirm these findings and to develop safe and effective doses.

It got me thinking about HM's comment that it helps his performance (er, not sexual HM, we all know there is no problem there :lol:). What I was thinking is that if HM notices a marked improvement when he works out after taking L-Arginine, then maybe that could be an indicator of a blockage in an artery somewhere. As we all get older, we are more likely to have plaque build up on our arteries due to many factors. I'm just saying that in HM's case this could be why he notices a difference in performance when working out.

I take Lecithin daily also...which is supposed to dissolve plaque in the arteries.

Not that there's any indication I'm suffering from plaque build-up.

If anything I'm guilty of not getting regular checkups however....:o

I haven't had a full-body checkup in ten years...and I know I should get them.

I've never had heart problems in my life so far....touch wood (raps on head)...:eek:

I also take my Arginine before bed.

But preworkout I'm taking it with other things which may also contribute to a better workout as well.

But I've also done basically the same thing without Arginine....and it just seems to me to be overall better when I include it.

Much of the stuff I take is part of a "preventative maintenance" scenario. I don't take them because I'm suffering...I take them to prevent me from suffering.

Must be working because I haven't stayed in a hospital since I was seven years old.

Basically it dilates your blood vessels. I'll leave it to the medical experts whether to draw the conclusion that it delivers nutrients to your muscles faster.

I do know that my wife will get angine (heart pain) if she doesn't take her L-arginine and the angina goes away when she does take it. Its a simple cause and effect.

There is no argument about what L-arginine does physically in the body. Like HM said, if it gives you a benefit, then use it, if it doesn't, then don't. That is how I see the use of supplements. At my age, I'll take all the help I can get.


Not to be a heel, but you are wrong. Read the research on what it does. What it does for your wife, and what it does for someone without her health concerns are not necessarily the same thing.

For instance, read the following abstract:

Fahs CA, Heffernan KS, Fernhall B.
Department of Kinesiology and Community Health, Exercise and Cardiovascular Research Laboratory, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Champaign, IL 61820, USA.

PURPOSE: L-arginine, the precursor to nitric oxide (NO), has been shown to improve endothelial function in patients with endothelial dysfunction. Resistance exercise has been shown to increase arterial stiffness acutely with no definitive cause. It is possible that a reduction in NO bioavailability is responsible for this. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of acute L-arginine supplementation and resistance exercise on arterial function. METHODS: Eighteen (N = 18) young men (24.2 +/- 0.7 yr) volunteered for this study. In a crossover design, subjects underwent body composition testing, 1-repetition maximum testing for the bench press and the biceps curls and performed two acute bouts of resistance exercise in which they consumed either placebo or 7 g L-arginine before each resistance exercise bout. Anthropometric measures, augmentation index (AIx), arterial stiffness, and forearm blood flow (FBF) were assessed before and after each treatment condition. RESULTS: There were significant (P < 0.05) time effects after the resistance exercise; there was a reduction in brachial stiffness (P = 0.0001), an increase in central aortic stiffness (P = 0.004), an increase in AIx (P = 0.023), an increase in FBF (P = 0.000), and an increase in arm circumference (P = 0.0001) after exercise. CONCLUSIONS: The increase in central arterial stiffness and wave reflection was not attenuated by acute supplementation with L-arginine; furthermore, blood flow was not augmented with supplementation. On the basis of these data, l-arginine does not appear to change the hemodynamic and vascular responses to resistance exercise.

So arginine isnt so worthless after all


Look, I SELL supplements. I read a lot of research. If I am ever convinced that arginine taken in excess of that which you get from your diet and protein supplementation might provide an ergogenic effect you can bet your butt I will sell it. I have thus far been yet to be convinced... There is no solid studies to support it as an ergogen in my opinion.

Not to be a heel, but you are wrong. Read the research on what it does. What it does for your wife, and what it does for someone without her health concerns are not necessarily the same thing.


Chris, I certainly don't think you're a heel. You obviously stay on top of all this stuff since you're in the supplement biz and like you said, if you thought it worked, you would be selling it. I've got no problem with that. You know a lot more about all this stuff than I do, but here is my take on L-arginine based on what I've learned about it over the last three years.

Here is what I've learned from talking with this doctor at the Univ. of Pittsburgh Medical Center. What he says is that many women who have angina are mistakenly misdiagnosed with heartburn since the blockage doesn't show up on all the normal tests. He says the blockage in women occurs in the micro blood vessels which don't show up on the normal heart tests such as an angiography or CT scan. The L-Arginine is a vasodilator and it helps in dilating these micro bloodvessels. That is why it relieves the symptoms of the angina.

It is for this reason that I suspect that the study you quoted wouldn't measure an increase in blood flow as the dilation was occuring in the micro vessels that they can't test.

This does not necessarily mean that even if they could test for this, the results would be any different as it relates to its effect on resistance training. The jury is still out on that.

I think the best we can say is that although there is no scientific evidence to back up the claims that by taking L-arginine you can increase performance, recovery, etc., the empirical evidence would seem to indicate that there are some individuals who might benefit from its use. Taking it in small doses isn't harmful and if it seems to help certain individuals (e.g. HeavyMetal), whether it is a perceived benefit or actual, I see no reason why they shouldn't continue to use it.

The problem I have with the marketing of L-arginine, as well as other supplements, are the false claims certain companies make just to sell their product. This is why I will continue to buy your products as I know you are passionate about this and would never make a claim for your products that you didn't believe was true. When the day comes that the science backs up the claims of L-arginine advocates, I suspect that your company will be there selling it.

The doctors and researchers at UPMC are top notch and world renowned. One of the only good things to come out of my dreary little metropolis :)

Chris, I certainly don't think you're a heel. You obviously stay on top of all this stuff since you're in the supplement biz and like you said, if you thought it worked, you would be selling it. I've got no problem with that. You know a lot more about all this stuff than I do, but here is my take on L-arginine based on what I've learned about it over the last three years.

Here is what I've learned from talking with this doctor at the Univ. of Pittsburgh Medical Center. What he says is that many women who have angina are mistakenly misdiagnosed with heartburn since the blockage doesn't show up on all the normal tests. He says the blockage in women occurs in the micro blood vessels which don't show up on the normal heart tests such as an angiography or CT scan. The L-Arginine is a vasodilator and it helps in dilating these micro bloodvessels. That is why it relieves the symptoms of the angina.

It is for this reason that I suspect that the study you quoted wouldn't measure an increase in blood flow as the dilation was occuring in the micro vessels that they can't test.

This does not necessarily mean that even if they could test for this, the results would be any different as it relates to its effect on resistance training. The jury is still out on that.

I think the best we can say is that although there is no scientific evidence to back up the claims that by taking L-arginine you can increase performance, recovery, etc., the empirical evidence would seem to indicate that there are some individuals who might benefit from its use. Taking it in small doses isn't harmful and if it seems to help certain individuals (e.g. HeavyMetal), whether it is a perceived benefit or actual, I see no reason why they shouldn't continue to use it.

The problem I have with the marketing of L-arginine, as well as other supplements, are the false claims certain companies make just to sell their product. This is why I will continue to buy your products as I know you are passionate about this and would never make a claim for your products that you didn't believe was true. When the day comes that the science backs up the claims of L-arginine advocates, I suspect that your company will be there selling it.


Well, I respect your opinion and appreciate the kind way you phrased it. Thank you!

Chris

I just posted 4 referrals that completely refute your study.

But the "link" was damaged on two of them so I deleted the post.

However I will re-attempt to bring them up.

Interestingly....the original poster's story was that the person cut short their workout because the pump was so "insane"...if it doesn't work then why is he getting an "insane" pump?.....it sure wasn't from the Whey protein alone....

I just posted 4 referrals that completely refute your study.

But the "link" was damaged on two of them so I deleted the post.

However I will re-attempt to bring them up.

Interestingly....the original poster's story was that the person cut short their workout because the pump was so "insane"...if it doesn't work then why is he getting an "insane" pump?.....it sure wasn't from the Whey protein alone....


Your last point is actually quiet true, Arginine supplementation must have an effect, as the person never experienced this type of vascularity before.