I was just wondering how many of you have made pretty substantial gains in your strength during your initial weight loss cycle.

I've been searching through John's archives to find out how much his lifts went up despite cutting all his fat down, but to no avail.

So, have any of you put on say like 50 pounds to your bench and squat when you first started lifting weights, despite cutting down your body weight?

Please let me know!

I think I've seen this question asked on here quite a bit. A friendly suggestion to definitely search the forum for stuff. There's some valuable info around here.

As for an answer: You can make strength gains while cutting. I'm doing that very thing. People who are generally start out weaker on a cut will definitely gain more strength than others.

If one is already pretty strong and is working on a cut to chisel out the muscle that's there I believe you'll end up plateauing or losing a bit of strength, though it may be negligible depending on your diet. I think the higher protein cuts will help a person maintain their lean muscle mass and their strength gains.

I'm fairly confident in saying that the inability to gain strength while cutting is a myth, because I'm doing it right now (though I guarantee I'd gain more on a bulk).

*EDIT* - I'm tired and missed this on your first post: John doesn't talk about the poundage he lifts very often, so that's why you're not finding it.

Really, if you're cutting you should be far less concerned about gaining strength. Maintaining? Sure. But you're focusing on fat loss and not strength at that point. Just be patient, get through the cut and then work on strength! Too many people try to go for everything, get impatient and upset and give up or can't accomplish either goal because they do too much switching up of their programs. Slow and steady wins the race (unless you're Usain Bolt)!

Hope this helps.

I was just wondering how many of you have made pretty substantial gains in your strength during your initial weight loss cycle.

I've been searching through John's archives to find out how much his lifts went up despite cutting all his fat down, but to no avail.

So, have any of you put on say like 50 pounds to your bench and squat when you first started lifting weights, despite cutting down your body weight?

Please let me know!
I gained strength from a -100 lb loss cut. Everything across the board I am stronger with the lower weight that I am now.

Last time I did any 1 rep max was Bench press barbell. 225lbs 3 seconds down 3 seconds up. That was a little bit ago. I think I could do that pretty easy now at an even lower weight.

I'm very weak and don't really have any base strength, so I'm considering incorporating "Starting Strength" into my cutting routine minus the million calories.

I can bench like 150. I'd like to get up to 200. I figure that when someone doesn't have any strength to begin with, even at a caloric deficit they can go way up.

I'm very weak and don't really have any base strength, so I'm considering incorporating "Starting Strength" into my cutting routine minus the million calories.

I can bench like 150. I'd like to get up to 200. I figure that when someone doesn't have any strength to begin with, even at a caloric deficit they can go way up.
I was on a caloric deficit 1100-1750 calories during my cut with macros of 60% carb,20% protein, 20% fat. No cardio only HIT weight training.

Can you post an updated link to your cutting blog? Sounds impressive! The link in your signature is redirecting me to the Forum home page.

Thanks,
Dan

Can you post an updated link to your cutting blog? Sounds impressive! The link in your signature is redirecting me to the Forum home page.

Thanks,
Dan
http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=44303


Ahhhh Thanks I didn't know it was doing that. :tucool:

If you are just starting out or returning from a long break in lifting you can achieve rather dramatic lean mass gains, fat loss, and strength gains all at the same time for a period of a month or two. When I re-started lifting in Mar 2008 I lost 24lbs of fat, and gained 7lbs of lean mass in 3 months. I didn't really track my strength gains during this period. But once I started consuming excess calories my strength increased drastically. I put 50lbs on my bench in the next 3 months.

It really depends where you are in your training. If you are fairly new to training, it is pretty easy to gain strength while cutting. If you've been training awhile, then it is more difficult (although it can still be done). Personally, I did my first cut ever in 2007. I dropped ~35 pounds, and I struggled just to maintain my strength. I actually lost a little on most lifts, but it wasn't dramatic. I just had to make sure I didn't cut calories too drastically....

But once I started consuming excess calories my strength increased drastically. I put 50lbs on my bench in the next 3 months.

Same thing happened to me. Once I stopped cutting and upped my calories, my strength jumped up immediately. I was very happy considering that my strength had essentially stalled for the previous year.

It is very possible to gain strength and loose weight. I'm doing it now. So far I lost around 30 lbs, but keep a log of my weight and every couple of weeks or so my weight on various lifts goes up. It's not a huge gain or anything, but it does increase. I do reps of 6-8, eat a little under 10 times my body weight, at a 40/40/20 breakdown.

It is very possible to gain strength and loose weight. I'm doing it now. So far I lost around 30 lbs, but keep a log of my weight and every couple of weeks or so my weight on various lifts goes up. It's not a huge gain or anything, but it does increase.

That sounds similar to my personal experience.

I have seen steady increase in upper body strength, not huge, but steady. However, I have had fairly substantial increase in leg strength (over 100% in 6 weeks). during this same time I lost approximately 30 lbs.

I have started to level out on the weight drop but BF% seems to be decreasing, so I must be adding lean mass and still burning off fat.

So it is definitely possible, but I have no expectation that it will last. I believe the only reason I am losing fat and gaining strength, and muscle is that I was essentially sedentary for the last two years. On top of that, I have not lifted since college which was 15 years ago.

I gained strength from a -100 lb loss cut. Everything across the board I am stronger with the lower weight that I am now.

Last time I did any 1 rep max was Bench press barbell. 225lbs 3 seconds down 3 seconds up. That was a little bit ago. I think I could do that pretty easy now at an even lower weight.


n00b gains... Gotta love'em :tu: By the way, awesome transformation :)

If you're a noob who is out of shape and hasn't touched weights in a while or forever. Sure, you can make gains while cutting. How much is entirely up to your training, diet and rest.

If you've been in the game for a while. Like John, Mastover, etc. They're not going to put on 50lbs on their bench during this cut.You may still make some gains, if you're lucky. Most likely you'll plateau.

Is there any consensus number where the n00bie gains where off and where the body starts to adjust?

Clearly it is harder to go from 200 to 250 than it is to go from 100 to 150, at least I would think (for your average male).

My goal is to keep lifting hard and heavy and try to become respectably strong, as right now I feel like a weakling, but I really need to lose some weight more importantly.

Is there any consensus number where the n00bie gains where off and where the body starts to adjust?

Clearly it is harder to go from 200 to 250 than it is to go from 100 to 150, at least I would think (for your average male).

My goal is to keep lifting hard and heavy and try to become respectably strong, as right now I feel like a weakling, but I really need to lose some weight more importantly.

I'd say that point is different for everyone.

But you just keep changing it up, excersize wise.

If you're really weak and have little overall LBM. Then there will be the point where weight loss will stall and you'll need to eat to grow. It was covered in the Cutting tips thread.

I reached that a year ago. I was cutting and hit a plateau. I was skinny, but no 8% bf skinny. I almost had my 6 pack, but nothing like Pitt in Fight Club. I also wasn't making much gains from being in a caloric deficit. I was doing 1.8-2k cals a day. I always felt like I was starving and felt run down. I have no idea how John did the 1300 cals when he began!! I was spinning my wheels for a month and was getting tired of it. So I bulked. I used SS and put on some nice LBM, along with more fat than I wanted... But I should be able to cut and eat more than before. Since I now have more LBM, while still losing fat. I should be able to get down to 8-9% without too much trouble now. I'm just starting my cut last week. I'm cutting on a 2500 calorie a day diet and I still feel hungry! I'll adjust that as needed...

You don't want to cut forever and you don't neccessarily need to get down to 8% bf before deciding to put on some LBM. I don't see how tall you are or how much you weight in your profile. But, if you were to weigh 150lbs @ 7-8% bf, I'd maybe shoot for 10-12% bf @ 160-170lbs on this cut and then start a clean bulk. It will make getting to that 7-8% the next time around all the more easier. Hard to burn the fat without the fuel needed to keep the fire burning. But if you would weigh 190lbs @ 8% bf then I'd say you can cut untill you get that 8% without much problem.

But that's my opinion. I'd rather have a muscular look and more bf than a skinny stringbean look anyday. Some people just have to have that 6 pack though and get lost in the chase for it :)

I had slow and steady strength gains while on a long cutting then calorie restricted plan. As long as you eat good food you can maximise your chances.

As someone who is still a relative noob and who is 230lbs, am I correct in saying that if you, like me, have a quite substantial body fat %, with the right balance of diet (for me, I'm going to try 2400 calories with quite high protein), you can lose weight and still have good gains?

As someone who is still a relative noob and who is 230lbs, am I correct in saying that if you, like me, have a quite substantial body fat %, with the right balance of diet (for me, I'm going to try 2400 calories with quite high protein), you can lose weight and still have good gains?

Word. :nod:

And that whole being 16 years old thing kind of helps too. ;)

Word. :nod:

And that whole being 16 years old thing kind of helps too. ;)

Hopefully. I have quite a ways to go before I reach some of my goals.

I've gotten stronger on all my previous cuts. :D

My bench press is probably the one I've worked the hardest at and while I can eek out more reps in the first 2 sets, I'm failing sooner on the 3rd so I would say I've plateaued on that. However, my deadlifts and squats have plenty of room for improvement and they are slowly going up. This is my 3rd week for cutting.

If any of the following variables describes you, then you have a very good chance at gaining strength while cutting.

Young
No previous training
Little previous training

For everyone else who has been training consistently and is performing at or near there personal best, if they decided to start cutting for the next 12 weeks, they would get weaker, period. Some lifts would be impacted more than others (bench, squats) while others such as curls, probably not too much.

Also, in terms of gains. I'm convinced there is a connection between relative bodyweight and what you're capable of.

With an average amount of work, many people can quickly work up to bench pressing 100% of their bodyweight.

With more time and considerably more training, most people can work up to pressing 150% of their bodyweight.

Much more than that though, all bets are off. The best I've ever done was 175% of my BW. After that I think it requires a whole different level of dedication, not only to lifting, but to diet.

If any of the following variables describes you, then you have a very good chance at gaining strength while cutting.

Young
No previous training
Little previous training

For everyone else who has been training consistently and is performing at or near there personal best, if they decided to start cutting for the next 12 weeks, they would get weaker, period. Some lifts would be impacted more than others (bench, squats) while others such as curls, probably not too much.

Also, in terms of gains. I'm convinced there is a connection between relative bodyweight and what you're capable of.

With an average amount of work, many people can quickly work up to bench pressing 100% of their bodyweight.

With more time and considerably more training, most people can work up to pressing 150% of their bodyweight.

Much more than that though, all bets are off. The best I've ever done was 175% of my BW. After that I think it requires a whole different level of dedication, not only to lifting, but to diet.

Are you saying BW at 1RM or multiple reps?

With an average amount of work, many people can quickly work up to bench pressing 100% of their bodyweight.

With more time and considerably more training, most people can work up to pressing 150% of their bodyweight.

Much more than that though, all bets are off. The best I've ever done was 175% of my BW. After that I think it requires a whole different level of dedication, not only to lifting, but to diet.

What do you consider quickly? I guess this applies more to short guys than tall guys. I've been training productively for a little over a year and I still can't bench my bodyweight. But my bodyweight is 208lbs and I have long levers. If I were 5'8 and weighed 170lbs I'm sure I'd benching well over my bodyweight by now.

Single rep Max their bodyweight.

To clarify.

Many people can get 100%...ie..200lb person can bench 200lbs

Most people, with consistent training, can do 150%...200lb person can do 300lb bench.

Beyond that it takes alot more dedication and focus.

That said, I think it is more likely that someone who weighs 125 to bench 250lbs....than someone who weighs 200lbs to bench 400lbs.

I've known a few who can do the first, never met any who can do the latter.

Woodan-

You've got to be getting pretty close to your bodyweight right?

I've lifted weights in many different gyms over the past 17 years, and those averages have proven to be pretty accurate. These are not elite powerlifter/bodybuilder gyms either, they have been mostly military base gyms.

Very rarely have I ever seen someone be able to do much more than 150% of their BW for 1 rep max on bench. When it has happened, it is usually a guy who weighs about 150.

So for someone starting out lifting weights, I think my numbers are good averages for them to expect.

Take J. Stone for example, he made one post a few weeks ago where he actually discussed weight on his bench. I think he was a little over 200lbs at the time, but he'd said he had never been able to do 300 yet on bench (correct me if I'm wrong, the numbers may be a bit off). Now, he has been very dedicated to lifting for quite a few years now. And he's very close to that 150%. But he probably isn't going to get significantly stronger.

Woodan-

You've got to be getting pretty close to your bodyweight right?

I've lifted weights in many different gyms over the past 17 years, and those averages have proven to be pretty accurate. These are not elite powerlifter/bodybuilder gyms either, they have been mostly military base gyms.

Very rarely have I ever seen someone be able to do much more than 150% of their BW for 1 rep max on bench. When it has happened, it is usually a guy who weighs about 150.

So for someone starting out lifting weights, I think my numbers are good averages for them to expect.

Take J. Stone for example, he made one post a few weeks ago where he actually discussed weight on his bench. I think he was a little over 200lbs at the time, but he'd said he had never been able to do 300 yet on bench (correct me if I'm wrong, the numbers may be a bit off). Now, he has been very dedicated to lifting for quite a few years now. And he's very close to that 150%. But he probably isn't going to get significantly stronger.

I tested my 1rm last week so I know exactly where I am at the moment. Last week I was able to lift 80kg. At the moment I weight 94kg so that's 85%.

I'm not questioning your observations. I'm just wondering how long you consider "quick". 1 month, 6 months, a year, 2 years? Like I say, I've been lifting (productively) for a year or so and I'm still only at 85%.

Bench is a weak point of mine though. I also tested my 1rm for squat and deadlift last week. Squat is at 145% of my bodyweight and deadlift at 170%.

Check out this link, i went looking for it because I saw something similar recently. It gives you an idea of what your performance could/should be based on your experience.

Obviously you might be rated better in some areas, worse in others.
But if there is one area that you are particularly weak, then you could give more priority.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf

According to that chart, your bench is slightly under someone at an Intermediate level, your squats appear to be right at the Intermediate level, and your deadlift would be slightly above Intermediate.

Their definition of intermediate is....
An "intermediate" is a person who has engaged in regular training for up to two years. The intermediate level indicates some degree of specialization in the exercises and a high level of performance at the recreational level.

Check out this link, i went looking for it because I saw something similar recently. It gives you an idea of what your performance could/should be based on your experience.

Obviously you might be rated better in some areas, worse in others.
But if there is one area that you are particularly weak, then you could give more priority.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf

According to that chart, your bench is slightly under someone at an Intermediate level, your squats appear to be right at the Intermediate level, and your deadlift would be slightly above Intermediate.

Their definition of intermediate is....
An "intermediate" is a person who has engaged in regular training for up to two years. The intermediate level indicates some degree of specialization in the exercises and a high level of performance at the recreational level.

Ahh yes, I've seen that before. So I'm generally doing pretty good. I've not been training 2 years yet and already my squat and deadlift are better than average. My bench is a different story though as that is still at novice level...

I can't help that think that body shape plays a large factor in these figures though. I am pretty tall, I think this helps my deadlift and my squat but hinders my bench. I were shorter I expect my bench would be slightly better but at the expense of my squat and deadlift.

I'm just glad you didn't mean people are generally benching their own bodyweight in a matter of 3 months.

Longer arms and the width of your body (from front to back) are a factor in how much you can bench and how many reps. You will have leverage and distance to deal with. Leverage will work against you with 1RM and distance will work against you for number of reps. My bench workout rate is 120% and 1RM is around 138% but my arms are "freakishly long" as my workout partners say.

I'm thinking about doing the "Starting strength" lifting routine paired with an 11-12x bodyweight calorie diet.

Can one reasonably expect to lean out while eating this much? I'm 23 years old, don't really have any base strength, and am a big fattie.

I'm thinking about doing the "Starting strength" lifting routine paired with an 11-12x bodyweight calorie diet.

Can one reasonably expect to lean out while eating this much? I'm 23 years old, don't really have any base strength, and am a big fattie.

You didn't say what your body weight is or what your BF is.

I think most would say 12-13 X bodyweight, so you're in the right, probably.

You didn't say what your body weight is or what your BF is.

I think most would say 12-13 X bodyweight, so you're in the right, probably.

Bodyweight is 250. Not sure what BF% is. Too high to judge from pics.

Bodyweight is 250. Not sure what BF% is. Too high to judge from pics.

i've weighted 250. i would really encourage you to focus on fitness and body recomp. you're so young, it goes to your great advantage. read ca$on's journal. look at the js pics from 03. i personally don't think benching 150 is weak. but at the end of the day, all the weights are about are your fitness. numbers don't show in mirrors. cut your diet and work out really hard and stay motivated for a long time. if you want to lose 50+ pounds, it takes a long time. prepare your brain for that and get an image of what you want in your body and dig in and work hard and let the weights be what they are. its better to lift regularly than to lift too hard and get stalled in injury. that will screw up your cut. use the weights to change your body. they're tools, not metrics. best luck and find an image that works for you!
http://www.enotalone.com/img/articles/4/4848/3.jpg

I'm thinking the way to go diet wise is to go with the 12xbodyweight in calories.

If there is one thing that has opened my eyes around here, it is the success people are having by eating a good amount of healthy food and matching that with lifting to change their body, as opposed to eating 1500 calories and burning up all their muscle.

I really enjoy lifting. I don't enjoy starving myself. I am looking forward to eating a hearty amount of food and lifting (I consider a 12xbodyweight clean diet to be a huge amount of food, it is certainly WAY more volume than I historically eat).

[quote=tensdanny;702111]as opposed to eating 1500 calories and burning up all their muscle.[quote]


:confused::whistle:

personally when I cleaned up my diet I didn't even have to count calories. I was satisfied with what I was eating and still losing. And all I did for exercise was less than 30 minutes of light lifting every other day, with 20 minutes of a fast bike ride around the hood on the off days. but they key is here:

my change was gradual. I didn't get 'results' that 'motivated' me per say. If that's what you're looking for you are going to push yourself too hard and then burn out --- and that may happen in a month, or two, or three. It's just the fact that my diet and exercise routine was so easy to stick to it was second nature. I was losing weight and gaining strength gradually, painlessly and sustainably!

After easing into my fitness plan that way I had the basic dedication required for real lifting and grueling cardio.