Am I on the right track?

I've been reading a lot on these forums and other sites for the past couple weeks. I'm trying to lose fat and gain muscle. so I started tracking all my food and have been doing the stronglifts strength training program. I've been eating 2100-2600 calories per day. I six eat times per day every 3 hours around 180-210 grams of protein, 60-80 grams of mostly good fats and carbs varies but when I say carbs I'm talking about fruits and vegetables. The only grain I'm eating is oats and that's pre and post workout and sometimes for breakfast (usually a quarter to half cup of quick oats). I'm 5' 9" @ 227 pounds. I took a body fat test and it said I'm 29.3% body fat (Not sure how accurate the tool is but it sounds right). I lost two pounds since last week (I was 229).

So I'm trying to gain muscle and strength and lose fat. But I've read some people say I should eat more calories if I want to gain muscle.

Basically what I want to know is -- am I on the right track? At first I was trying to lose weight but after reading all kinds of info I'm now focused on losing fat and gaining muscle. Of course I'd like to eat more but I don't want to eat more if it makes me fat or doesn't let me lose fat.

nknz, you theoretically cannot lose fat and build muscle at the same time unless you're a newbie to lifting. The reason this is, is because to build muscle you have to be in a caloric surplus (above mainain) and to lose fat you have to be in a caloric deficit (below maintain). You cannot do both at the same time. In my experience, I did gain a bit of muscle when I was on my cut initially but eventually it stopped (i was a newbie to lifting and had no muscle).
Watch out for those BF testing devices, they are usally inaccurate. I think you should cut any excess fat and then do a clean bulk.
Best of luck!

If you are 29% bf, you don't need to worry too much about gaining muscle to begin with. You do however need to eat a clean diet and lift to maintain at least what muscle you have currently. Your current muscle mass might be more than you think, since in effect you're having to work to carry around that extra weight all the time.

And yes, if you eat a proper diet, you can gain muscle as you cut as long as you don't try to drop down to super low calories. It's a myth that it's impossible to gain muscle and strength while on a caloric deficit. Harder? Yes, but as a beginner you're at the time where the fastest gains are possible. With hard work and a good plan, you can continue to do so for a long time.

If you are losing two pounds a week and you are going up on your lifts, I say you're doing great :tu:

You can eat more grains. How much carbs are you getting? I think the 210 is a safe number, you could probably go higher (up to 230). The fat doesn't sound too high either. Don't be afraid of carbs, they can be your friend. I think 190 grams to 230 might be safe as well. If you are eating clean I'm sure you will see some good results. You should lose fat and gain LBM. Don't buy the whole you can't gain muscle and fat at the same time. It works. It's just a slower process. Unless you are a newbie. Your LBM will skyrocket if you follow your plan and train consistently.

Try your plan and adjust as necessary. Give it at least two weeks before you change stuff up. :gl:

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the feedback.

What is LBM?

@ Nowhereman (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/member.php?u=14544) -- My carbs are usually around 200 grams per day. But those are mostly carbs from fruits and some oats. I've been eating clean--no processed foods no fast foods etc. Straight up whole foods, dairy, meat (sometimes canned fish), fresh veggies, fruits. I've been weighing and measuring everything. I also drink at least 16 8oz. cups of water per day.

Yes, I'm a newbie at all this. I've lifted weights before but never serisously and I really didn't have a plan. I just would lift some heavy weights thinking it would help me get strong and lose weight (that was unsuccessful heh).

I definitely want to gain muscle and look good. I'm going to stick with my plan for now and make adjustments, if necessary, as others have suggested.


EDIT: I looked at John Stone's calories and food and it looks like he didn't have to eat a lot of extra calories to lose fat and gain muscle. I didn't study his program close so I'm making a general statement (excuse any possible ignorance on my part please).
Thanks again guys!

Am I on the right track?

I've been reading a lot on these forums and other sites for the past couple weeks. I'm trying to lose fat and gain muscle. so I started tracking all my food and have been doing the stronglifts strength training program. I've been eating 2100-2600 calories per day. I six eat times per day every 3 hours around 180-210 grams of protein, 60-80 grams of mostly good fats and carbs varies but when I say carbs I'm talking about fruits and vegetables. The only grain I'm eating is oats and that's pre and post workout and sometimes for breakfast (usually a quarter to half cup of quick oats). I'm 5' 9" @ 227 pounds. I took a body fat test and it said I'm 29.3% body fat (Not sure how accurate the tool is but it sounds right). I lost two pounds since last week (I was 229).

So I'm trying to gain muscle and strength and lose fat. But I've read some people say I should eat more calories if I want to gain muscle.

Basically what I want to know is -- am I on the right track? At first I was trying to lose weight but after reading all kinds of info I'm now focused on losing fat and gaining muscle. Of course I'd like to eat more but I don't want to eat more if it makes me fat or doesn't let me lose fat.

You got to start somewhere so i would suggest you stay on this meal plan and see what happens. I think you'll see very nice results if you get stronger and keep eating healthy.

Train hard.

What is LBM?


lean body mass

Full list of acronyms, abbreviations, and terminology here (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=22700).

nknz, you theoretically cannot lose fat and build muscle at the same time unless you're a newbie to lifting.

You can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time while at a caloric deficit. It takes more time and gain is smaller. The first priority of any workout is gaining or maintaining muscle. Look at John Stone's results.

edit: I didn't say just beginners. Which the poster might be. The important thing is use heavy weight 8-12 reps.

You can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time while at a caloric deficit. It takes more time and gain is smaller. The first priority of any workout is gaining or maintaining muscle. Look at John Stone's results.

:nod: I think another + is that your weight isn't yo-yo-ing so your pretty lean all the time.

i think you're most definitely on the right track.

What's being said about beginners is true: you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Diet-wise, I wouldn't stress too-too much about it. Yes, it is terribly important, but what's most important right now is that you're hitting the gym and being consistent about it. If you consider it on a scale of major life changes, look at it this way: you were eating before you decided to start working out, and now you're just changing what you're eating; but when you decided to work out, you quite possibly weren't doing much of anything at all! Good for you!

I say right now it's most important to try to enjoy the newness of what you're doing. Learn a ton of new lifts. Experiment with different cadences, keep an eye on your form, talk with other people about what they like to do, find out where you're weak, that kind of stuff.

If you come out of the gates with a hungry mind, your body will surely follow. Although lifting is a discipline with more and more things to discover, beginning is the most important thing. Even if you left your diet as it was you're still making a drastic improvement over how your life was.

I don't mean for this to sound wishy-washy. You'll see results come pretty quickly at this stage. See how your body responds with everything as you have it now. There's always plenty of time down the road to get into the nuts and bolts of how to run your own program. Consistency is the MOST important thing.

Good luck!

i think you're most definitely on the right track.

What's being said about beginners is true: you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Diet-wise, I wouldn't stress too-too much about it. Yes, it is terribly important, but what's most important right now is that you're hitting the gym and being consistent about it. If you consider it on a scale of major life changes, look at it this way: you were eating before you decided to start working out, and now you're just changing what you're eating; but when you decided to work out, you quite possibly weren't doing much of anything at all! Good for you!

I say right now it's most important to try to enjoy the newness of what you're doing. Learn a ton of new lifts. Experiment with different cadences, keep an eye on your form, talk with other people about what they like to do, find out where you're weak, that kind of stuff.

If you come out of the gates with a hungry mind, your body will surely follow. Although lifting is a discipline with more and more things to discover, beginning is the most important thing. Even if you left your diet as it was you're still making a drastic improvement over how your life was.

I don't mean for this to sound wishy-washy. You'll see results come pretty quickly at this stage. See how your body responds with everything as you have it now. There's always plenty of time down the road to get into the nuts and bolts of how to run your own program. Consistency is the MOST important thing.

Good luck!

Thanks. Well I'm learning a lot. My workout on Monday really got me sweaty and I felt like I really worked my body. The whole day I was really hungry. I would eat my meals and like 30-60 mins later I'd be really hungry with stomach growling. Tuesday was the same so I decided to eat more fat (raw almonds) during the day and that helped some but I was hungry so I upped my calories per meal to 2600 on Tuesday. Today I worked out in the morning and I didn't want to be hungry like the previous two days so I upped my good fat intake (raw almonds, peanut butter, olive oil) and my calories as well. I still get hungry fairly fast compared to last week. After doing more reading and research I've decided to up my calories to around 3000. So far today I'm at 2700 and I still have to eat cottage cheese before bed.

I realize this is a learning process so here I am learning. I've been doing squats deadlifts overhead press bench press etc and I want the muscle gains so I'm upping the protein intake as well.

But here is the deal--most of my life I've been very overweight. I used to be over 300 pounds years ago but I lost weight and have been at 225 for years now. I'm afraid of eating too much because I think I'm going to gain weight and be 300 again. But what you posted made me think--yes you're totally right. I've NEVER counted calories or broken up my food into grams of protein fats and carbs and I'm sure I was eating 3000+ calories easily and of course I was eating bread and carbs that arent as healthy as oats.

So now I'm doing a workout that is kicking my butt and I'm thinking that I just gotta try it out. My food is clean and I'm working out and I want to gain muscle and look good and feel good about myself and be healthy.

This is seriously the FIRST time in my life that I've been looking forward to working out. I have a goal, I'm eating in a way I never have and I have a workout program. This is exciting! I used to hate the gym--now I know why--I used to go in there not eating to support my workout and then I'd do a workout that I just made up on my own...not really knowing what the goal was. Then I'd come home and see no results--no muscle gain but sometimes I'd lose a few pounds. But at the time I was just happy that I was maintaining weight instead of gaining so there was a plus there.

So I'm going to fine tune, do more research and ask questions and see what happens. I'll never know what happens until I do it.

Hunger is all in the mind. Don't use working out as an excuse to overeat. You are about 50-60 lbs overweight. You are going to have to cut calories and start counting them. It is part of the game.

Drink 1-1.5 gallons of water a day, by 9pm. Cut your rest between sets to 60 sec or less. use as heavy a weight as you can. Do cardio if you do it, after weight workout.

I don't know your age I will guess at 25, If you are older you may need less, younger more calories. Your BMR is 2187, giving you a 1.55 activity level that means you maintain at 3389.85 to lose 1.5 lbs a week you subtract 750 and that is 2639 calories. add or subtract 250 calories a 1/2 lb.

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

Hunger is all in the mind.

Actually, a large part of it is physiological and a response to a variety of hormones/nerves.

Actually, a large part of it is physiological and a response to a variety of hormones/nerves.

So that is why we have a problem in most industrialized counties with obesity. Our nerves and hormones did it.

I thought it was overeating and little activity.:cool:

So that is why we have a problem in most industrialized counties with obesity. Our nerves and hormones did it.

I thought it was overeating and little activity.:cool:


:rolleyes: Non sequitur. You can eat when you are not hungry and exercise isn't only tied to physiological hunger.

The body does have physiological responses that affect the feeling of hunger. That can be controlled through what you eat, when, etc. Just basically telling someone to ignore what might very well may not be necessary doesn't necessarily increase their possibility of staying on the path.

Is cutting hard? Yes, there is some hard work involved and yes you might have to deprive yourself of something you want. But there are ways to do it without hunger pangs. When I cut, I am very rarely hungry because I've learned how to avoid it while still making progress.

Look up hormones like leptin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin) and ghrelin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghrelin).

:rolleyes: Look up hormones like eptin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin) and ghrelin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghrelin).

:lol:

Boy, you convince me. "Hunger pangs" - do they ache, do they bend someone over double?

:lol:

Boy, you convince me. "Hunger pangs" - do they ache, do they bend someone over double?


I'm not going to argue and make snide jokes with you. It's no help to the poster.

Thanks. Well I'm learning a lot. My workout on Monday really got me sweaty and I felt like I really worked my body. The whole day I was really hungry. I would eat my meals and like 30-60 mins later I'd be really hungry with stomach growling. Tuesday was the same so I decided to eat more fat (raw almonds) during the day and that helped some but I was hungry so I upped my calories per meal to 2600 on Tuesday. Today I worked out in the morning and I didn't want to be hungry like the previous two days so I upped my good fat intake (raw almonds, peanut butter, olive oil) and my calories as well. I still get hungry fairly fast compared to last week. After doing more reading and research I've decided to up my calories to around 3000. So far today I'm at 2700 and I still have to eat cottage cheese before bed.

I realize this is a learning process so here I am learning. I've been doing squats deadlifts overhead press bench press etc and I want the muscle gains so I'm upping the protein intake as well.

But here is the deal--most of my life I've been very overweight. I used to be over 300 pounds years ago but I lost weight and have been at 225 for years now. I'm afraid of eating too much because I think I'm going to gain weight and be 300 again. But what you posted made me think--yes you're totally right. I've NEVER counted calories or broken up my food into grams of protein fats and carbs and I'm sure I was eating 3000+ calories easily and of course I was eating bread and carbs that arent as healthy as oats.

So now I'm doing a workout that is kicking my butt and I'm thinking that I just gotta try it out. My food is clean and I'm working out and I want to gain muscle and look good and feel good about myself and be healthy.

This is seriously the FIRST time in my life that I've been looking forward to working out. I have a goal, I'm eating in a way I never have and I have a workout program. This is exciting! I used to hate the gym--now I know why--I used to go in there not eating to support my workout and then I'd do a workout that I just made up on my own...not really knowing what the goal was. Then I'd come home and see no results--no muscle gain but sometimes I'd lose a few pounds. But at the time I was just happy that I was maintaining weight instead of gaining so there was a plus there.

So I'm going to fine tune, do more research and ask questions and see what happens. I'll never know what happens until I do it.

Eat lots of veggies to control hunger and limit refined sugars.

You sound like your on a good track. :)

There are many ways to eat to lose weight but the bottom line is a calorie deficit.

Personally i use alot of intermittent fasting.

So that is why we have a problem in most industrialized counties with obesity. Our nerves and hormones did it.

I thought it was overeating and little activity.:cool:

You're confusing appetite and hunger. The first is the strong desire to eat a (usually specific) food, the latter is the need for food to nourish the body and make sure it's functioning properly. Hunger comes with physiological symptoms, such as the feeling of a growling or empty stomach, headaches, dizziness etc. Both are affected by hormones, but appetite is also regulated by habits, customs and thoughts - and is therfore more "in the mind" than real hunger is.

To the OP, increasing fat intake to increase satiety is a good approach in my experience. The more fat I have in my diet, the less hungry I get. I can eat the same amount of calories coming from carbs or from fats and I'll be starving all day when I eat a lot of carbs and feel full when I eat fats. I think it's something you should definitely experiment with.

If you are 29% bf, you don't need to worry too much about gaining muscle to begin with. You do however need to eat a clean diet and lift to maintain at least what muscle you have currently. Your current muscle mass might be more than you think, since in effect you're having to work to carry around that extra weight all the time.

And what is more, you can use that extra weight as a muscle building advantage. Concentrate on a program of big compounds especially legs and back. I would recommend this to just about everyone anyway, but that sort of program will work even better if you carry a lot of weight. As MB points out, well, what do you think you carry that weight around with? You probably have more muscle that you suspect.

One guy at a gym I used to work out at must have weighed over 400# at about 5'11". He never lifted, and a couple times I suggested that he might make more progress with weights than just doing 30 minutes of elliptical three times a week. He always declined because he didn't think he was in good enough shape. Now at that gym, you had to go downstairs for the shower, and I had seen him come up the stairs without much trouble. OK everybody reading this figure out in your head how much weight you have to add to your bodyweight to get to 400#. Now imagine that you have to carry that amount of weight up a flight of stairs and make it look like you do that every day. For some reason, he didn't accept my proof that he was actually quite strong of leg and back. I think it is the usual - men who don't know much about lifting tend to think in terms of how the arms and shoulders look, as opposed to how strong they actually are in objective terms.

I didn't get through to him, but it is usually true that people who are heavy have strong legs and back if they are at all active. And the "short cut" to building muscles of any kind is to work legs and back - that's where the action is.

So that is why we have a problem in most industrialized counties with obesity. Our nerves and hormones did it.

I thought it was overeating and little activity.:cool:

It's quite clear that overeating is mostly caused by the hormones interacting with the brain. This is most convincingly proved by examples where certain brain lesions cause people to continuously eat, killing themselves in months. As usual with brain function, when you see the effect of disabling some part of the brain, that tells you what that part of the brain does. (For example the part of the brain we now call the "speech center" is called that because injuries to that part of the brain effect speech, etc.) So we know there are some parts of the brain which have to be working properly in order for people to stop eating.

Now it seems pretty clear given the evidence of the past few decades, that the parts of the brain that allow you to stop eating are controlled by some hormones, in particular leptin and ghrelin. If you want to control your weight, those are your targets.

Many (most?) people have the genetics for overeating to occur, and one big reason is that when they gain fat, that fat secretes leptin which signals the part of the brain involved in allowing you to stop eating (it is part of the hypothalamus). The hypothalamus gets used to that level of leptin, and if you lose fat, the hypothalamus responds by making it harder and harder for you to avoid eating, until it gets it's leptin fix. In other words, the hypothalamus wants that fat around.

The hypothalamus also can reduce your level of energy expenditure to try and preserve the fat, but that is pretty easy to deal with, since the hypothalamus doesn't stop you from expending energy with voluntary muscle contractions.

So the issue with overeating is that it is very easy for the hypothalamus to accomplish this with the availability of high calorie density foods, which have only been commonly available to "the masses" in the past hundred years, especially the second half of the twentieth century.

Now this is just one scenario, which I believe is thought to be the most usual way that the hormones and brain keep you fat. There are other pathways - last time I researched this they had found about 9 hormones that were identified as involved in obesity, but they knew that there were at least 40, not all of which had been identified. (You can get that sort of information from analyses of gene expression, which is why this information wasn't around fifteen years ago...) The point is that there are other ways that your brain can make you fat as well as the leptin feedback.

Eventually, I expect pharmacological interventions will be the most common way that people control their fat.

The more fat I have in my diet, the less hungry I get.

This makes a lot of sense if you are mostly dealing with a leptin feedback or other similar situation.

I don't know if all the obesity producing situations would respond the same way, but since leptin feedback is supposed to be the most common, then it's definitely worth trying.

:lol:

Boy, you convince me. "Hunger pangs" - do they ache, do they bend someone over double?


I have a decent pain tolerance but I do find if I'm hungry....like with actual pangs, I feel pretty sick. So, yeah when cutting I avoid this as much as possible, veggies help for sure.

:) I have just one curiosity question……………Does anyone posting here believe that willpower and determination has any bearing on weight loss? If so, how so……… or is it generally felt by most that satiating hormonal induced cravings, etc, etc is the most important requirement for weight loss and muscle retention? Do understand this is not posed as a combative query but I would appreciate any response, should anyone choose to make one, to be kept at a very ‘simple’ level (for the very simpleminded and that would be me……….:D )

:) I have just one curiosity question……………Does anyone posting here believe that willpower and determination has any bearing on weight loss? If so, how so……… or is it generally felt by most that satiating hormonal induced cravings, etc, etc is the most important requirement for weight loss and muscle retention? Do understand this is not posed as a combative query but I would appreciate any response, should anyone choose to make one, to be kept at a very ‘simple’ level (for the very simpleminded and that would be me……….:D )


Oh, it's definitely a big part of things. The desire to do what it takes to achieve the long term goal of positive body recomposition is what helps you make the choices hour by hour to eat the good thing vs the bad thing, to workout, etc.

The easy path is to eat and do the short term thing that makes you feel best, which is generally also stuff that will leave you out of shape. So the willpower and determination to go for the long term gain is critical for success.

However, proper planning and habit building are made much easier if you know physiologically what you are up against and deal with it with appropriate strategies.

Self discipline is a major factor.

:)Would it be safe for me to assume then that while the brain/hormone connection is important to the extent that it explains the various ‘road blocks’ to successful weight reduction it SHOULD NOT, NECESSAIRLY be viewed as (or perhaps ‘construed’ as)
a reasonable explanation for the ‘galloping’ obesity in our country? Once again, I feel compelled to reiterate that my questions/comments are not intended to be combative;
do know however (in the unlikely event you might have missed it) I am of the “school” that believes old fashioned will power, determination and consistency is THE most important ingredient necessary for successful body reconstruction.:)

:)Would it be safe for me to assume then that while the brain/hormone connection is important to the extent that it explains the various ‘road blocks’ to successful weight reduction it SHOULD NOT, NECESSAIRLY be viewed as (or perhaps ‘construed’ as)
a reasonable explanation for the ‘galloping’ obesity in our country? Once again, I feel compelled to reiterate that my questions/comments are not intended to be combative;
do know however (in the unlikely event you might have missed it) I am of the “school” that believes old fashioned will power, determination and consistency is THE most important ingredient necessary for successful body reconstruction.:)

I agree it comes down to willpower - alot of this hormone stuff is just a way for people to confuse people and make money on lame diets.

That said you can certainty eat a certain way to reduce hunger.

You can have the best info in the world but if you don't apply its doesn't mean beans. :)

I'm sure most people would agree with what we are saying. Its nothing new.

How does it go..? To know and not to do, is to know nothing at all. :)

:)Would it be safe for me to assume then that while the brain/hormone connection is important to the extent that it explains the various ‘road blocks’ to successful weight reduction it SHOULD NOT, NECESSAIRLY be viewed as (or perhaps ‘construed’ as)
a reasonable explanation for the ‘galloping’ obesity in our country?

Here's where I think it is more complicated than pure willpower vs physiological factors. It gets into available food types, costs of various options, societal lifestyle factors that limit physical activity, etc. Willpower is very important, but not the only thing here.

When these outside factors get combined with physiology that makes it easy to get fat with dense and abundant food sources, then it becomes complex.

But I'm of the mind that personally I can educate myself and do what I need to do to stay fit, no matter what everybody else does around me. So willpower matters to those that actually want to make change and have confidence enough to actually do so.

Knowledge is power here, so trying to ignore physiology and science that might be available to help achieve goals is important in success. IMO, that's part of the willpower. Deciding to take the steps to learn proper diet and exercise practices is a personal choice to make.

IMO, you don't have to be hungry to cut to reasonable body fat levels (read that as non-bodybuilder levels). I never have. If you set yourself up to starve all the time, you probably set yourself up to either fail or rebound eventually when you attempt to once again find "normal". However, if you do things correctly, things aren't easy with cravings for certain bad foods, but you don't have to feel starved all the time because there are plenty of other things to eat that will keep you at least satiated.

I am of the “school” that believes old fashioned will power, determination and consistency is THE most important ingredient necessary for successful body reconstruction.:)I don't disagree. I just don't think ignoring physical signs your body gives you necessarily helps keep the consistency up.

:) I am of the “school” that believes old fashioned will power, determination and consistency is THE most important ingredient necessary for successful body reconstruction.:)

And you are right. You don't get anything worthwhile in life without determination and action. An over-dependence in "science" can limit you. I have never felt hungry in my life, I have had desires for food.

The "only child" in me says eat only what you like and always make it available when you want it. Well that will lead very quickly to overindulgence in high calorie foods. How can I stop this? By will power and determination.

if someone says my desire for a candy bar and chocolate chip cookies is hormones and nerves. I just laugh my head off. If I tell someone I was hungry for them, I am trying to fool them. I know because I live in a world of reality that I just wanted it. When I decide I don't want to eat it then I don't.

Zen is right on one thing, the future lies with drugs from science.

RE: People suggesting more carbs. Just remember those carbs are energy for lifting, so make sure you're going all out ni the gym with your lifting in order to take advantage of those carbs! Carbs can definitely be your friend if you understand their purpose. Ca$on is a perfect example. He ate high carbs and lost more than 100 pounds but it was because he was doing high intensity, full body weight lifting three times a week. That's all it took. Or, rather, I should say, that's "all" it took, rofl, because he was going all out to get where he is!