Hi all

I've been doing fitness for a while now but always on the safe machines. But this is going to change since I've chosen to add both the shoulder/chest press and the bench press to my work-out.

I am doing these two exercises for over 2 weeks now and I was surprised by the low weight I could take.

Shoulder press --> 20 / 25 kilo
Bench press --> 25 / 30 kilo

while on different machines I'm doing everything 50+ kilos.

Pec Deck --> 55 / 60 kilo
Chest Press Machine --> 65 / 70 kilo
Lat Pull Down, Neck --> 60 / 70 kilo
Pulley --> 50 / 55 kilo

So my question is how is this possible? and are there any other exercises I could do to train the muscles you need for the shoulder press and bench press?

You're saying that the shoulder press and bench press are with free weights, correct?

The difference then is nothing to be surprised about. Machines lock you into a single path, eliminating your need to stabilize or "balance" the weight, and can have mechanical advantages at certain points in the ROM that aren't present when you're using free weights.

You're saying that the shoulder press and bench press are with free weights, correct?

The difference then is nothing to be surprised about. Machines lock you into a single path, eliminating your need to stabilize or "balance" the weight, and can have mechanical advantages at certain points in the ROM that aren't present when you're using free weights.

I agree.

I only bench about 27.5 and military press 17.5 hehe

It's much easier with the machines imo, and not as good of a workout as using free weights. The weight isn't the main objective if you're going for muscle growth. It's how hard the exercise is and how hard you push yourself.

thanks for your useful answers.

I am aware of the fact that machines give you an advantage in the amount of kilo's you can take but I had no idea that the gap would be this big.

So the best thing is to continue with the shoulder/chess/bench press so that I also train my ''balancing'' muscles.

are there any other exercises that will help in training those muscles?

btw you are absolutely right about the weight. it isn't how much you can take but how far you can push yourself.

You want another nasty surprise? Take whatever weight you're benching and try to do it with dumbbells instead of a barbell. The difference that comes with having to stabilize a weight is HUGE.

The best way to work the stabalizing muscles is to use free weights, this way, they are naturally being worked so will generally grow at a good rate compared to the main muscle.

Also, artiz is correct.. Dumbell press alot harder than using the barbell! But works those smaller muscles alot more also.

You mention about such a big gap between machines and freeweights. I can't remember how big my gap between used to be, only thing I can think of, is maybe you're form on the machines is wrong? (I know it's hard to believe) Some people's form is all wrong on some machines, you see them moving their body into weird positions just to get the higher weight. Pec deck is is one of them, I remember seeing countless people in the gym bringing their upper back off the backrest and using that to help them shift the weight, which obviously, isn't proper form.

People seem to think if using a machine, their form can never be off, so they feel free to shift the weight however they can while on the machine!

Like I say, your form may be perfect and it's just natural freeweights are more difficult, but just check your machine form next time you do them :tu:

Here's a good video on what you should be doing to focus on your chest when bench pressing (i.e. ~ proper form):

Clicky for link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcjOIZc80c)

Here's a good video on what you should be doing to focus on your chest when bench pressing (i.e. ~ proper form):

Clicky for link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcjOIZc80c)

Umm, that looks good in most aspects... the bit about how to sit on the bench is useless mind you.

But isn't he pushing the bar up WAY too fast. I noticed when he does it, when it's at full stretch, it's not controlled, it goes up then drops and up again, sorta hard to explain. imo, the up movement needs to be more controlled than he is showing

the bit about how to sit on the bench is useless mind you.

Err, whats wrong with it exactly? Have you tried it?

Also, speed looks fine to me, nice explosive movement, not to mention it's a demo and that's likely to be a light weight for him.

Err, whats wrong with it exactly? Have you tried it?

Also, speed looks fine to me, nice explosive movement, not to mention it's a demo and that's likely to be a light weight for him.

Isn't it supposed to be a controlled movement? Even if it is a low weight for him... it's a tutorial video so he should be able to do it at the right speed. It's not about showing his strength.

As for the way he sits down on bench... all that bar grabbing and pulling yourself through seems a bit pointless, the rest of it, planting feet etc is all good. Just that pulling yourself through which stuck me as a bit of a silly thing.

Isn't it supposed to be a controlled movement? Even if it is a low weight for him... it's a tutorial video so he should be able to do it at the right speed. It's not about showing his strength.

A couple points:

-- there's no such thing as the right speed
-- using speed doesn't necessitate a lack of control
-- more speed, more acceleration, more force

Ever try to slow down a max or near max lift? You'll miss the lift.

For the best strength and power development, move the weight as fast as possible. If the weight is light, it'll move fast. If the weight is heavy, it'll have to move slow. In either case, the point is that you're trying to exert maximal force. This has to do with motor unit thresholds. You recruit the most motor units and, thereby, the most muscle when you exert the most force.

The problem with demonstrating exercises at a slow speed is that people then think the exercise should be performed at that speed. Slowing down an exercise is what you do when you are trying to learn it -- not when you're competent at the exercise or trying to demonstrate how it should look to others. In the context of teaching, slowing down is only used to illustrate a particular point. There aren't really particular points to the ROM of the bench press. You don't press the barbell up halfway and suddenly do something differently. You lower it and you raise it. The magic is in the set-up.

As for the way he sits down on bench... all that bar grabbing and pulling yourself through seems a bit pointless, the rest of it, planting feet etc is all good. Just that pulling yourself through which stuck me as a bit of a silly thing.
It might seem silly if you're not benching much, but making sure your set-up is rock solid really counts when you're benching heavier weights (e.g. over 300 lbs) or you weigh very little comparatively. It's good to get it right from the start though.

This goes for many exercises -- setting up to lift is often of greater importance than the lifting itself. The lifting itself is rarely complicated and will proceed naturally from the correct set-up and prerequisite understanding of what the lift is meant to do / work.

Context is everything. :nod:

There's always going to be at least some level of difference in a video/tutorial that places the primary emphasis on training the lift itself, versus training the related muscle groups.

It should be fairly obvious which category the video linked above falls closer to (ie. training the lift over training "chest").

Now don't take things out of context here and go away thinking this means there must be major fundamental differences you need to worry about between executing a lift for strength versus hypertrophy, where the differences will be night and day, especially at the beginner/unadapted level, because this just isn't true under most circumstances.

Whatever differences may exist are fairly subtle, and by the time any of this is likely to matter much, an individual is likely to have built enough experience on their own to adjust things intune with their longer term training goals.

It might seem silly if you're not benching much, but making sure your set-up is rock solid really counts when you're benching heavier weights (e.g. over 300 lbs) or you weigh very little comparatively. It's good to get it right from the start though.

This goes for many exercises -- setting up to lift is often of greater importance than the lifting itself. The lifting itself is rarely complicated and will proceed naturally from the correct set-up and prerequisite understanding of what the lift is meant to do / work.

a few years ago i worked out at a ymca using universal equipment. they had free weights but i didn't know how to use them. the guys who did all had flat chests and angular builds. i was pushing 150# on the universal. i asked someone how much the bar weighed and there were 45# plates on the bar so i tried it and it was bad. got stuck on my chest and had to roll it down my stomach and sit up and roll it off my legs. no one was there, but i was embarassed anyway.:o

i just started lifting free weights in the last few months and started with 25s then 35s and now i'm using 45s and its very clear how free weights are different from machines. if i'm alone, i'll do a few sets on the flat bench then move to the smith machine as i get tired.

what is the significance of the arched back like the last video had and this one too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blcHhMjDjjM&feature=PlayList&p=317C125D7733FD4A&playnext=1&index=10

what is the significance of the arched back like the last video had and this one too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blcHhMjDjjM&feature=PlayList&p=317C125D7733FD4A&playnext=1&index=10
It's taken best advantage of when you're also wearing a bench shirt, but it overall gives you an extremely solid base to press from and effectively transmit power using the whole body. Think of it sort of like drawing a bow.

It is a powerlifting technique though and takes some skill to do correctly. If you're interesting in training "the chest" more than you are "the lift," as Goonie put it, it's not necessarily the appropriate technique to use.

It's taken best advantage of when you're also wearing a bench shirt, but it overall gives you an extremely solid base to press from and effectively transmit power using the whole body. Think of it sort of like drawing a bow.
It also limits the range of motion and puts you at a slight decline (which is where people tend to be stronger).

If you're interesting in training "the chest" more than you are "the lift," as Goonie put it, it's not necessarily the appropriate technique to use.

:nod:

:nod:

It's taken best advantage of when you're also wearing a bench shirt, but it overall gives you an extremely solid base to press from and effectively transmit power using the whole body. Think of it sort of like drawing a bow.

It is a powerlifting technique though and takes some skill to do correctly. If you're interesting in training "the chest" more than you are "the lift," as Goonie put it, it's not necessarily the appropriate technique to use.

It also limits the range of motion and puts you at a slight decline (which is where people tend to be stronger).

thank you sirs. http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/images/icons/icon14.gif