Hi there folks!

Since I can remember I suffered from gynecomastia. Well, one gets used to it... ...then I found John Stones page and started a rigid cutting regime:

Weekly workout scheme:


2-3 Lifting
7 x Cardio


Exemplary nutrition per day:


Soy Isolate 30g
Carrot-Juice 250mL
Oat 100g
Hony 1 Teaspoon
Soy Isolate 15g
Chicken Terriyaki Sandwich without cheese - Subways 1 Serving
Tofu 200g
Oliveoil 5g
BCCA 4 Capsules
Soy Isolate 15g
Whey Protein Isolate 94 45g
Erdinger alkohol-free beer 1 Bottle (500ml)


= 1639 kcal

So far so good. Now I realised, that my gyno got worse, i.e. my breast got larger, and I am afraid that this is a result of phyto-estrogen contained in the soy I am using as a protein-source. As a measure of security I will reduce my soy consumption from now on.

Has anybody made similar experience? Can this be a normal effect of the cutting? Does the fat on the breast stays longer than that one on the abs?

Thanks in advance

I'm not a guy, from from a female point of things, soy can make just as much of a mess out of women as it can in men. The topic of whether soy is good not has been debated for quiet awhile. Some people do well with it, others do not. I'm one of those "Not" people as it messes with my horomones, causes my skin to break out, ect.

What I did was eliminate soy almost entirely. Some beans and such fall under the soy catagory, so I don't eat them. My son is allergic to soy, so I use his "Don't not eat list" from our allergist as a guide.

Since I'm a vegetarian knowing what soy does to me, I've recently bought a thing of Wheat Isolate. It does have a smidgen of soy lecithin in it, but from what I understand, soy lecithin is basically junk from a soy bean. The other protein supplement I was using ( Wheybolic Extreme 60) was not agreeing with me as it's a whey / soy combo.

So far the wheat stuff I've bought is working out nicely. It isn't loaded with sugar, fat or calories and it has a much cleaner taste than the other stuff I tried. There's no funny or nasty aftertaste. To get alittle extra fat in, I have it with a measured TBSP of peanut butter.

If you eat things that are processed, read labels. Food companies are sneaking soy into everything and it's really, really irritating. It's right up there with the issue of corn syrup appearing in everything. The best and only way around it is to eat a squeaky clean diet. If soy is bothering you that much, you'll appeciate the clean diet as you won't have the side effects of soy.

The body pulls fat from wherever it wants do. There is no saying that it pulls fat from the chest area faster than the abs or vice versa.

The body pulls fat from wherever it wants do. There is no saying that it pulls fat from the chest area faster than the abs or vice versa.


The fear is that the phytoestrogens contained in soy will cause hormonal problems in men resulting in gynecomastia.

I've read articles both ways. I suspect you have to intake large quantities of highly processed soy to get the dangerous levels of phytoestrogens/isoflavones to make much difference, but I generally avoid soy use except for soy sauce. :)

The fear is that the phytoestrogens contained in soy will cause hormonal problems in men resulting in gynecomastia.

Exactly this is my concern. I've read in some articles, that gynecomastia can be a result from a hormonal dysbalance and I think that phyto-estrogen could make things worse.



I've read articles both ways. I suspect you have to intake large quantities of highly processed soy to get the dangerous levels of phytoestrogens/isoflavones to make much difference, but I generally avoid soy use except for soy sauce. :)
Well, as I don't want to eat too much meat (only once or twice a week) it is quite difficult to get your daily protein without a lot of soy, be it tofu or isolate. I like soy a lot, as you can use soy-protein isolate for cooking instead of drinking three or four shakes a day. As I have a problem with lactose I have to be also careful with whey.

Anyway... I decided to eat more fish, e.g. cod, to replace the major part of the soy-protein.

I'm not a guy, from from a female point of things, soy can make just as much of a mess out of women as it can in men. The topic of whether soy is good not has been debated for quiet awhile. Some people do well with it, others do not. I'm one of those "Not" people as it messes with my horomones, causes my skin to break out, ect.

Okay this causes no problems. When I eat a lot of soy my skin even gets better.


What I did was eliminate soy almost entirely. Some beans and such fall under the soy catagory, so I don't eat them. My son is allergic to soy, so I use his "Don't not eat list" from our allergist as a guide.

(...)

So far the wheat stuff I've bought is working out nicely. It isn't loaded with sugar, fat or calories and it has a much cleaner taste than the other stuff I tried. There's no funny or nasty aftertaste. To get alittle extra fat in, I have it with a measured TBSP of peanut butter.

Fortunately I am not allergic to soy, so I was quite happy to have it as an alternative to whey. I have a lactose intolerance and as whey is made from milk I supect that I might become allergic to whey if I overdo it.


If you eat things that are processed, read labels. Food companies are sneaking soy into everything and it's really, really irritating. It's right up there with the issue of corn syrup appearing in everything. The best and only way around it is to eat a squeaky clean diet. If soy is bothering you that much, you'll appeciate the clean diet as you won't have the side effects of soy.

Will do. The most food I buy is from the organic food store anyway.



The body pulls fat from wherever it wants do. There is no saying that it pulls fat from the chest area faster than the abs or vice versa.
Well I guess I just have to be patient... and buy me a camera to see changes when they occur...

Work hard and you'll be fine.

Eating plans are not an exact science. Keep plugging away at yours, ask questions when you're stuck and the results will come. :)

Hi Mannish! :wave:

Hi Mannish! :wave:
:wave:

I'm vegetarian myself and therefore rely on soy to an extent in order to reach my required intake of protein. Having said that, I limit my daily intake to about 300-400ml of Soy milk and perhaps some tofu/TVP (which is made from defatted soya flour) and i've never had any problems. My only suggestions would be to maybe switch over to using a soley whey based protein powder (I found soya isolate to be overpriced and inferior nutrionally speaking) and seek some other forms of non animal, non soya protein if you want to limit your intake of meat. Seitan is a really good source of protein and you can make it yourself provided you have the time and patience to do so and whilst i'm not entirely sure you can get it in on the continent,a company called Quorn make really great fake meat products using mycoprotein, which is made using funghi and therefore soya free.

Best of luck with your training!

Consider this:-


If your testosterone is too high, the body will convert some of it into Estrogen...along with the associated affectation (like Gynocomastia).

Soy protein is chock full of L-Arginine......which is the cornerstone of all N-O products....which in turn acts as a vasodilator...which in turn is why Viagra sells so well ( because it vasodilates the veins in your Johnson, giving you better "wood"). 2 thumbs up for Arginine/Citrulline...:tucool::tucool:

There is absolutely no proof that Soy protein raises Estrogen levels or interferes with Testo levels.

I used to think it did.....but it's all been debunked by recent studies.



The only problem I have with Soy protein is that it contains (al least mine does), a hell of a lot more Sodium than my Whey.

This is a subject that will be debated for at least the next three and a quarter aeons. However, three things maybe worth considering are:

1. The food with the very highest amount of phytoestrogens is flaxseeds, followed by other oil seeds and nuts. You don't often hear of these being decried by the fitness or physique communities. And, though less so than soya, other legumes also contain phytoestrogens, as do meats and some fruits and vegetables.

2. I would pay attention to the amount of omega-6 fatty acids in some soya foods, more so than about the phytoestrogens. (This is less likely to be an issue when dealing with soy protein isolates, though.)

3. As HevyMetal suggests, arginine content might be noteworthy, especially if there is not (according to some claims) enough lysine in the diet to balance it. My personal experience is that arginine supplements quickly aggravate my acne, and my guess is that this is nothing to do with hormones, and much more to do with changes in the behaviour of blood vessels in the affected skin.

There is absolutely no proof that Soy protein raises Estrogen levels or interferes with Testo levels.


Well, I wouldn't go that far. I agree that the effects of soy on testosterone aren't well established, but there is some evidence that it can mess with your test levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15735098

An excerpt from the abstract: "In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones"

"decreases' DHT testo?..

DHT is the bad testo.....too much of it responsible for prostate troubles in older guys....and also the culprit in male pattern baldness....

Too much free-form DHT binds to a certain element on the prostate....the element/receptor that it binds to becomes more vulnerable as you get older causing swelling of the prostate.

I've often thought that some of these bodybuilding supps (testo boosters) where the supp prevents DHT from binding to the wrong receptors would be just the thing for a guy with prostate trouble.....maybe not so much baldness....but they might help that too.


And here we have Soy protein decreasing DHT?

Would it be decreasing it because it is forcing Testo to bind correctly to the right receptors, instead of floating around as DHT (which you don't want).


Asians and Indonesians eat a lot of Soy....and I don't see a pandemic of "mits"...er...I'm sorry..."moobs" over there. Or anywhere else where they eat Soy en masse.

Only in North America....


A while back ( a fairly long while)...all the iron-head muscle mags and periodicals shunned Soy. Now just about all them embrace it, even recommending splitting it 50/50 with Whey.

Soy milk was touted as a "woman's drink"....because they thought it raised Estrogen levels in post-menopause women.

Recent studies have shown it does no such thing.....and makes no difference estrogen-wise to women at all.

Mac Danzig of the UFC uses Soy protein...he was a vegan for the longest time.

I don't see any "mugs"...I mean "mits"...sorry.."moobs", on him.


It's interesting to note that many males who have Gynocomastia never ate Soy in their life.

And I've seen pics of guys who have bodies approaching Cutler-level who still can't get rid of their man-boobs....so they elect for surgery. When they get it they are told that it is impossible to cut out all the cells and that they may expect symptoms to re-appear later on a lesser or greater level.

In every male the hormone rate is not 100% stable. It fluctuates (especially when you are 12 to 20 years of age). Spillover Estrogen might be produced at a point.....and then not.

Many things affect hormone production and levels. Where you live, what you eat, what you do, your stress level (and the way you react to stress), years of a certain kind of diet.
Pot-smoking and heavy drinking are both known to lower Testo and increase Estrogen in the long run.

Bio-toxins from too much fresh-water fish consumption have been shown to lower Testo and sperm levels.

But we've got to have a "whipping boy"...something to take the rap....so I guess Soy Protein was it.

"decreases' DHT testo?..

DHT is the bad testo.....too much of it responsible for prostate troubles in older guys....and also the culprit in male pattern baldness....



Well, it wasn't JUST dht that was decreased, but also testosterone. If you decrease test, then dht decreases too.

BTW, I never said soy causes "moobs" -- I just said that your claim that "no evidence exists" isn't correct.

o.k.......:cool:

The fear is that the phytoestrogens contained in soy will cause hormonal problems in men resulting in gynecomastia.

I've read articles both ways. I suspect you have to intake large quantities of highly processed soy to get the dangerous levels of phytoestrogens/isoflavones to make much difference, but I generally avoid soy use except for soy sauce. :)

Soy was often touted as a natural way for women going through menopause to get good Hormone Replacement Therapy for the estrogen.

It did squat for me -- and most of the studies on that matter that I've read -- (though I have not kept up with the literature in years) found that the quantity of estrogen created by soy was so infinitesimal that it is basically useless as HRT.

Plus there are the points that Zilla makes -- but then there the points that TSMA makes....

Personally -- I avoid soy like the plague -- but thats me --- if I don;t have red, bloody meat at least 3 times a week -- my hair starts falling out... (really -- I tried to be vegan and vegetarian -- for a couple of years and found myself craving sweets all the time and my hair starting to fall out-- a symptom of protein shortage I was given to understand -- eggs and fish were not sufficient for me -- but again. that's me. My partner however, lives excellently on all the food I can't eat and can't eat the food I do.)

John Berardi is experimenting with a near vegan diet but he is still eating eggs. Anything that constitutes consuming a whole, animal protein, particularly one as excellent as a whole egg, is not a vegetarian or vegan diet in my book.

This does not address the soy question directly but as he is one of the leading gurus of nutrition (particularly now that he has his Ph.D. :D ), you might be interested in what he has to say.

Plant-Based Diet (http://www.precisionnutrition.com/jb-goes-vegetarian)

yes ...I read that...and I see he's sucking back unsweetened Soy milk by the cupfull daily....

Also interesting is that he's using Curry powder post-workout.

This contains the same anti-inflammatory found in Turmeric.....which I use daily on my eggs in the morning....:)

This contains the same anti-inflammatory found in Turmeric.....which I use daily on my eggs in the morning....:)

Curry is largely tumeric after all.

I keep meaning to up the curry in my diet, but it stinks up the house so much I don't do it much.

It's especially important to me due to it's anti-cancer properties and my history, so I need to make myself use it (like I made myself eat broccoli, which I do not like).

I suppose I'll up my candle budget to keep the smell under control :lol:

Where I live Turmeric is available in a "bulk" packet for about $3.85 Cdn.

An amount that should last quite awhile.

Turmeric does not have the odor like Curry does.

It's available in any supermart here.....

Where I live Turmeric is available in a "bulk" packet for about $3.85 Cdn.

An amount that should last quite awhile.

Turmeric does not have the odor like Curry does.

It's available in any supermart here.....


It's readily available here as well, but it still has a smell (not the same, but still...) It also stains my cooking utensils :)