Hi Guys, couldn't really find a decent answer to my question so im looking to gain some exeriences.

Do you add dextrose to your post work out shake? and if so how much?

From what I have read two parts carbs to one part protein, but if that is true its 1, going to be a sickly sweet shake and 2, going to have about 50 grams of sugar and if thats 1g = 4 cals, thats 200 calories right there, of what people would say is empty calories.

You definitely should. It has been proven that carbs + protein PWO result in enhanced protein synthesis and return the body to a net positive protein balance more quickly. I would suggest 30-60g of carbs with 20-40g of protein.

Thanks for that Chris!

I guess thats a few more calories t fit in then.

Hi Guys, couldn't really find a decent answer to my question so im looking to gain some exeriences.

Do you add dextrose to your post work out shake? and if so how much?

From what I have read two parts carbs to one part protein, but if that is true its 1, going to be a sickly sweet shake and 2, going to have about 50 grams of sugar and if thats 1g = 4 cals, thats 200 calories right there, of what people would say is empty calories.

It is a myth that your PWO meal has to be whey and sugar. The only things I've seen good research on was to avoid fats PWO unless you are on something like the anabolic diet.

FWIW, I have 15gr of white potato and 7oz of LEAN eye of round PWO and I feel great. I never understood why I'd spend so much time reading labels and measuring food, all to down 80gr of dextrose (sugar) at the end of a workout.

It is a myth that your PWO meal has to be whey and sugar. The only things I've seen good research on was to avoid fats PWO unless you are on something like the anabolic diet.

FWIW, I have 15gr of white potato and 7oz of LEAN eye of round PWO and I feel great. I never understood why I'd spend so much time reading labels and measuring food, all to down 80gr of dextrose (sugar) at the end of a workout.

I agree with this sentiment. Unless you need to replenish muscle glycogen really quick, I don't think that drinking dextrose is the way to go. I have a whey shake right after my workout followed by a solid meal containing complex carbs about an hour later. Works well for me.

(15 g of white potato? Must be one awfully small potato ;)).

The dextrose is mainly for the insulin spike and thereby minimize protein breakdown. I think it is pretty well established.

You have anything which says otherwise?

Complex carbs are more effective in replenishing muscle glycogen stores than simple sugars. Unless you're in a sizeable caloric deficit and as long as your workouts aren't too long (i.e. 90+ minutes of intense weightlifting), muscle breakdown is highly unlikely from a temporary depletion of glycogen.

The importance of an insulin spike to replenish our muscle glycogen is an established mantra within the body building community, but it has very little scientific backing.

Search on google for "Layne Norton BCAA". Protein Powder + Dextrose shake is a bit outdated.

Personally, I shy away from dextrose/malto. I have some WMS, but I will most likely move away from that also.

What I have been doing, which works awesome for myself. Is this;
1st, I mix up 3 scoops Xtend, 3 scoops bulk BCAA drink.
2nd, 20 minutes later I take 1 cup of oats and put it into a coffee grinder. The coffee grinder grinds it to the consistancy of a coarse/fine powder. Throw it into 2 cups of milk, 2 scoops of whey and before long the hypoglycemic feeling is gone.

750 cals with good carbs. Get some simple from the milk and slow from the oats. I'd recommend it to anyone.

I think any of the below would be a great alternative, pwo;

1. whey + 1/2C oats
2. whey + banana
3. whey + 1/2C rice / rice cakes
4. whey + yogurt


No need to drop an A-bomb on your pancreas.

Unless you're in a sizeable caloric deficit and as long as your workouts aren't too long (i.e. 90+ minutes of intense weightlifting), muscle breakdown is highly unlikely from a temporary depletion of glycogen.


It is pretty well established that protein breakdown is much higher after resistance training. And it doesn't have anything to do with glycogen replenishment.

Weight training doesnt do much to deplete glycogen in the first place. Atleast I never came across that reasoning. In fact ithe protein breakdown is so high, that you are in negative protein balance after resistance training.

Even the recent cribb study which gave some real credibilty to post workout nutrition used dextrose and the reasoning was protein breakdown suppression.

VERY nutshell version:

carbs + protein PWO =

1) Enahnced protein synthesis
2) Quicker reversal of PWO catabolic state

All of the above = GOOD

Read the Opticen page here for more information on the topic:

http://atlargenutrition.com/nutrition_detail.php?products_id=2

Seriously, please take a moment and read it. Real research is referenced. Anoopbal is correct.

Weight training doesnt do much to deplete glycogen in the first place.

Actually, it does....and to borrow a line from one of your posts....it's pretty well established. :)

There's a lot I don't agree with in your post, but instead of refuting each point one by one, let me just repeat my original point...which is the protein, fats and complex carbs (ASI something like Opticen) is a more effective PWO option than adding dextrose to your protein shake. Personally, I prefer to each a whole meal within an hour of my workout...but if I had to eat a protein shake, it definitely wouldn't include any added dextrose.

Actually, it does....and to borrow a line from one of your posts....it's pretty well established

Weight training is anaerobic.

It doesn't really dip into your glycogen reserves. There are diets which have days called "depletion workouts" (UD2 for ex) to deplete glycogen specifically. They use around 4-5 sets of 15-20 reps. They will not do much for growth but it is for glycogen depletion.

I would like to know where you disagree. Maybe you know something which I havent come across.

I agree with this sentiment. Unless you need to replenish muscle glycogen really quick, I don't think that drinking dextrose is the way to go. I have a whey shake right after my workout followed by a solid meal containing complex carbs about an hour later. Works well for me.

(15 g of white potato? Must be one awfully small potato ;)).

Doh! 15OZ of white potato.

I take 10gr of Xtend during the workout, plenty of water, within 5-10 minutes I have my PWO meal including vanadyl sulfate, and chromium polynicotinate with some creatine.

I don't think anyone would dispute the fact you need to eat PWO, but it's simply outdated knowlege that dextrose is the ONLY way.

but it's simply outdated knowlege that dextrose is the ONLY way.

"Outdated" in terms of what? Can you explain further with some evidence.

"Outdated" in terms of what? Can you explain further with some evidence.
You are missing my point. I'm merely stating that it's narrow minded to say you need dextrose. There are TONS of examples here of people making stellar progress without it.

I respect Chris's opinion, but I don't agree. I like his RESULTS powder, but stopping using it because I don't like using dextrose. If I'm going to eat sugar, I'm going to have some delicious cake. :nod:

Weight training is anaerobic.


Yes, it is...but not 100%. Not even close. In fact, with even the most intense weight-lifting session, you're still burning through a lot of sugar and the majority of cellular respiration is still aerobic. In order to reach the point of anaerobic respiration, you must first get to the point where you're not able to get enough oxygen to your cells. The path to reach that point will require a lot of aerobic cellular respiration. It's far too simplistic to say that weight training is anaerobic and thus very little muscle glycogen is being used.

It's far too simplistic to say that weight training is anaerobic and thus very little muscle glycogen is being used.

Its only complicated when you try to argue against basic physiology. Unless you are doing crazy volumes or depeltion workouts, weight lifting do not deplte much muscle glycogen.

The point being, glycogen replenishment has nothing to do with psost workout nutrition. If you think there is, you discovered something new.

Wow, just do a quick google check on weightlifting and muscle glycogen my friend. I knew I shouldn't have responded to your last post because I knew this would spiral into a pointless debate. In any event, it's quite obvious that disagree on something that I thought was obvious, but I guess not. Heck..forget the google search...just click the link provided by Chris Mason! A lot of very good info there.

Glycogen replenishment is just one part of the recovery process. You're saying it has absolutely nothing to do with post-workout nutrition? hehe, OK...if you say so. :) Well, I guess if you do not believe that glycogen is the primary fuel source for your muscles and hence do not get depleted because you're only working out anaerobically with very little aerobic respiration in your muscle cells, I guess you won't believe glycogen replenishment is important.

Post workout nutrition is mainly for Increasing protein synthesis and decreasing protein breakdown. I don't see anywhere in the link which says "glycogen replenishment".

Hence the reason why just giving protein and amino acids shows increased protein synthesis.Add carbs to the mix and the protein breakdown goes down due to th insulin spike.

Glycogen depletion could affect protein syntesis via AMPK or increased cortisol. I am not saying it wouldn't but I have never come across glycogen replenishment as a major reason for "postworkout" nutrition or anyone showing a direct link.

If you look ate most of ths studies showing glycgen depletion are with lighter weights 35 -60% of 1RM and high volume like 6 sets resembing endurance exercise. These kind o volume and rep range are not common. Hence my comment about "depletion workouts".

Read the link again. It clearly states that ONE of things the product does for you (along with reducing muscle degradation, etc) is it "improves replenishment of muscle glycogen. Here is how it works:" The link also talks about glycogen depletion when working out. "Depletion workouts" that you reference kind of remind me of the "I don't want to be too bulky, instead I want to build lean mass, so I'll do more reps with less weight" mentality that so many misinformed ppl seem to believe.

In any event, this debate is becoming pointless and is getting away from what our original disagreement was about. You feel dextrose should be used and I think complex carbs should be used PWO. That's all.... A very minor disagreement and I respect your position on the matter.

I am just saying what protein studies have shown to be the most effective.

Studies which brought the concept of post workout nutrition still uses dextrose hence my comments. If indeed there is an advantage of using Complex carbs, I dont see it.

And depletion workots are designed for glycogen depletion on a diet not to build muscle. The muscle buiding workots fall on other days which bviosuly uses low reps and are not effective for glycgen depletion.

And again there is no direct link between glycogen depletion and protein synthesis or breakdown. It is similar to saying calories are important for recovery and post workout nutrition gives calories!

I am just saying what protein studies have shown to be the most effective.

Studies which brought the concept of post workout nutrition still uses dextrose hence my comments. If indeed there is an advantage of using Complex carbs, I dont see it.


OK, but for every study that uses dextrose, I could probably find you a more recent study that uses complex carbs.. Like others have said...using dextrose is outdated.


And depletion workots are designed for glycogen depletion on a diet not to build muscle. The muscle buiding workots fall on other days which bviosuly uses low reps and are not effective for glycgen depletion.

And again there is no direct link between glycogen depletion and protein synthesis or breakdown. It is similar to saying calories are important for recovery and post workout nutrition gives calories!

Wow, saying the same thing again and again doesn't make you more right. I already know your position on the matter...don't need to keep repeating it. :)

Also, when did I say glycogen depletion leads to protein synthesis or breakdown?? I actually said that glycogen depletion does NOT lead to muscle breakdown. I think you are really getting confused here.

In any event, this thread has become tiresome.
http://www.revenews.com/wp-content/uploads/sprockets1.jpg

If you really want to continue debating this, I suggest you send me a PM. It might be a good idea for both of us to stop making asses of ourselves with this ridiculous dialogue. This will definitely be my last post on the subject.

There is nothing wrong in debating. That is exactly the purpose of a forum. That's how people learn & new ideas evolve and change.

If you make statements like weight training is glyocgen depleting and stuff, people will question. If just want to be right, keep your opinions to yourself just dont post it everywhere.

If you have nothing to back up wiith it, just say you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

And since you have nothing more to add that "other's opinion" and "google", it better be your last opinion. You are the typical poster who slowly backs off when you get questioned about your silly opinions.

Debate is encouraged, but please remember to remain respectful and keep the tone civil. Thanks. :)

Debate is encouraged, but please remember to remain respectful and keep the tone civil. Thanks. :)


In general, which will provide a superior insulin spike a simple or complex carb?

The whole point of carbs PWO is the insulin spike it helps to generate.

The whole point of carbs PWO is the insulin spike it helps to generate

Even if complex carbs do have a great insulin spike, I am not sure who feel like drinking complex carbs right after workout. I might throw up all that right back.

I think a better point worth debtaing is how much of an insulin spike is needed and how much is not too much. I think that has not been studied.

Even if complex carbs do have a great insulin spike, I am not sure who feel like drinking complex carbs right after workout. I might throw up all that right back.


Well, maltodextrin is a complex carb.....(alot of people mix this with dex PWO).

Well, maltodextrin is a complex carb.....(alot of people mix this with dex PWO).

Though its a long chain carb but it is absorbed really fast like a simple carbs.

People using comple carbs, like powdered oats and other stuff is just bcos they are confused with glycogen replenishment and post workout nutrition. I don't care whether people take complex carb bcos that's like or prefer. Just dont keep saying that's the ideal way to do.

"LoL"... that's all I can say. I'm disappointed you had to resort to personal attacks. Congratulations. :lol: I'm sure it was painful to hear multiple people here tell you that your beliefs are outdated, but that's no reason to hurl insults. Just because ppl don't agree with you doesn't mean you're wrong. Just differing opinions...that's all. No need to take it so hard. I'm surprised someone who runs his own blog felt the need to react the way you did.

"LoL"... that's all I can say.

Thought you weren't posting anymore

Also here is Chris Mason answer " The whole point of carbs PWO is the insulin spike it helps to generate". Now you are only left with "google" as you reference.

Reread my post. I said I wasn't posting anymore about the subject. I should have known long ago that debating with you is quite pointless. You're the type that gets enraged when disagreed with. I know the type. So as you can see in this post and my previous post, I said absolutely nothing about the subject.

I was just posting to give you some much needed advice. The more you post, the more you expose your character online... Be careful. I know you were just trying to save face against all the people that disagreed with you here, but it's very easy for your efforts to backfire. Since you seem to value Chris Mason's info (selectively I might add), perhaps you should follow his example and try to maintain his level of professionalism, as you both work in this industry.

Reread my post. I said I wasn't posting anymore about the subject.

And when were you posting about the "subject"? Your only arguement in your defense is "others use it" and "glycogen replenishment" and "Chris artcile". Even Chris came and said glycogen has nothing to do with post workout nutrition.

Atleast now you learned that glycogen replenisgment has nothing to do with post workout nutrition, right? Or are you still going to stick with it.

And who the heck is "other people". They all have nothing to say except "I use complex carbs". Atleast you said "glycogen replenishment"

Intelligent debate do not go by "I like it" and "others like it".

Now if you have anything relevant to the subject post it.

Sigh. I know I said I wouldn’t post anymore on this subject, but you keep trying to pound your point home as if pounding it harder makes you more right. It’s obvious you’re just dying for me to keep talking about it so I will.


Atleast now you learned that glycogen replenisgment has nothing to do with post workout nutrition, right? Or are you still going to stick with it.


OK, here’s a quote directly from the link provided by Mr. Mason…

“Hard training places the body in a net negative protein balance and simultaneously depletes intramuscular glycogen stores both during and immediately after the exercise session. In order for the body to recover and supercompensate this catabolic state must be quickly reversed.”

OK, am I reading this wrong? I think the quote above is quite clear. Oh that’s right… you don’t even believe glycogen depletion exists because weightlifting is anaerobic and doesn’t burn glucose….so glycogen replenishment isn’t an issue. Kinda makes this whole debate pointless, doesn't it?


And who the heck is "other people". They all have nothing to say except "I use complex carbs". Atleast you said "glycogen replenishment"

Intelligent debate do not go by "I like it" and "others like it".

Now if you have anything relevant to the subject post it.

I think the main issue here is that you believe dextrose is the best thing to use PWO and I do not. When I said "other people", I was referring to the other posters who also stated in this thread that using dextrose is outdated. Personally, I happen to agree... I also think the reliance on a dextrose induced PWO insulin spike is a bit outdated....or just not the only method or even the best method. You say it's well established... I disagree. If ANYTHING, it's a highly debated topic....and based on stuff I've read in forums and training articles, I'm being generous!

Admittedly, the main source of info that really changed the way I think on the topic were Alan Aragon's writings. But hey, I don't think he is a bad source of information. I think his interpretations on the latest research is pretty sound and believe him to be extremely knowledgeable when it comes to workout nutrition. So I believe him when he says that it doesn’t matter what your pwo carb source is as long as you ate properly before your workout. So if it doesn’t matter, why not ingest carbs that have some more nutritional value? And for this reason, I prefer to have a whole meal within a hour of working out….which I believe I stated earlier in this thread.

Now this is TRULY my last post on the subject and also my last post in this thread! LOL (even if you respond with another personal attack! ;) I'm done with this thread... I'm unsubscribed baby! :lol: )

Here are a couple of different view on PWO nutrition:

One that says high GI carbs PWO = good

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/importance.htm

One that says high GI carbs PWO = not necessary

http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf


Personally, I don't think nutrition immediately PWO will make or break you...certainly not enough to wade through all the claims made by the different camps to decide who is right. My pwo nutrition usually consists of 50g whey + 60g waxy maize, and an hour later, 3/4 cup steel cut oats and 8oz chicken breast. I'll have some fats a couple of hours after that.

So I believe him when he says that it doesn’t matter what your pwo carb source is as long as you ate properly before your workout. So if it doesn’t matter, why not ingest carbs that have some more nutritional value?

Again I am just asking honestly "why it doesn't matter" for heaven sake.

And I apologize if I meant anything personal. Not my intent.

Now to Tak2264. Fro the links provided by Joeschmo:

From your own Alan Aragon whom you trust a lot: " Resistance training, as its commonly done for strength, bodybuilding, or general fitness is not glycogen depelting in fed subjects on moderate volume protocols"

And why he says simple carbs not required is bcos a higher insulin spike is not shown in minimizing protein breakdown as a insulin spike above base line levels. And that was my concern too as I said in the earlier post.

Rsistance training will deplete glycogen stores, but not to the same degree of other forms of exercise.

Insulin serves a very useful purpose in the PWO environment. You definitely want to use something that will spike it significantly and dextrose does the job just fine. Its use it certainly not outdated. The rest is just talk. If you don't like dextrose for PWO purposes use something else.

Insulin spiking with dextrose is not necessary for bodybuilding. See Alan Aragon's paper on the subject, pages 4 and 5, link below. All that is needed to minimize protein breakdown is a tiny amount of insulin over baseline, which can be obtained with normal eating. As little as 20 grams of protein an hour before workout will minimize protein breakdown PWO. Add carbs with the protein and the spike is even greater, more than needed to prevent the much feared "protein degradation," a term bandied about like it is a disease. With proper nutrition, the term becomes an insignificant worry. Your total micronutrient intake over a 24 hour period much more important. I would not place much reliance on dextrose studies.The vast majority of dextrose studies were done on people in a fasted state, which are the same studies people quote when pushing their dextrose agenda. If you time your meals properly, no spiking is needed. See: http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf

If any bodybuilder thinks they are benefiting from dextrose, then they have poor nutrient timing, a poor diet, or both. No poster will ever convince me that swilling sugar is somehow superior to whole foods with nutrient timing. The best thing a bodybuilder can do is to learn to think for themselves, learn proper nutrition and quit following questionable studies like a lemming. Sugar use has been associated with cell degradation, premature aging, elevated triglycerides, excess adipose tissue and a fat liver. Just what I am looking forward to, a foie gras liver in 10 years. A fat liver is a diseased liver and I want no part of it. Save that for the force-fed ducks.

I use Pro/Dex format as my PWO...

30g/70g split..

But the bottom line is do what works best for you - as I do not think there is any wrong way to go about this.

The vast majority of dextrose studies were done on people in a fasted state, which are the same studies people quote when pushing their dextrose agenda. If you time your meals properly, no spiking is needed. See:

I would have agreed if you said this before this study by cribb:

Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

PURPOSE: Some studies report greater muscle hypertrophy during resistance exercise (RE) training from supplement timing (i.e., the strategic consumption of protein and carbohydrate before and/or after each workout). However, no studies have examined whether this strategy provides greater muscle hypertrophy or strength development compared with supplementation at other times during the day. The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of supplement timing compared with supplementation in the hours not close to the workout on muscle-fiber hypertrophy, strength, and body composition during a 10-wk RE program. METHODS: In a single-blind, randomized protocol, resistance-trained males were matched for strength and placed into one of two groups; the PRE-POST group consumed a supplement (1 g x kg(-1) body weight) containing protein/creatine/glucose immediately before and after RE. The MOR-EVE group consumed the same dose of the same supplement in the morning and late evening. All assessments were completed the week before and after 10 wk of structured, supervised RE training. Assessments included strength (1RM, three exercises), body composition (DEXA), and vastus lateralis muscle biopsies for determination of muscle fiber type (I, IIa, IIx), cross-sectional area (CSA), contractile protein, creatine (Cr), and glycogen content. RESULTS: PRE-POST demonstrated a greater (P < 0.05) increase in lean body mass and 1RM strength in two of three assessments. The changes in body composition were supported by a greater (P < 0.05) increase in CSA of the type II fibers and contractile protein content. PRE-POST supplementation also resulted in higher muscle Cr and glycogen values after the training program (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Supplement timing represents a simple but effective strategy that enhances the adaptations desired from RE-training.

They just used dextrose and is the only study (I think) which looked at workout shakes without fasting as like in real world. And their end points were strength & LBm rather than MPS & MPB by most studies.

For some reason, the study quoted by Alan doesnt show up in pubmed. I couldn'tt find even in the author list. But I have read the arguement before.

Greenhaff PL, Peirce N, Simpson E, Hazell M, Babraj J, Waddell T, Smith K, Rennie M. Dose-response relationship during hyperaminoacidaemia between insulin and leg protein turnover in healthy young men studied by tracer amino acid exchange.

Sugar use has been associated with cell degradation, premature aging, elevated triglycerides, excess adipose tissue and a fat liver

So is excess calories from complex carbs.

Protein coingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise

In contrast to the effect of nutritional intervention on postexercise muscle protein synthesis, little is known about the potential to modulate protein synthesis during exercise. This study investigates the effect of protein coingestion with carbohydrate on muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise. Ten healthy males were studied in the evening after they consumed a standardized diet throughout the day. Subjects participated in two experiments in which they ingested either carbohydrate or carbohydrate with protein during a 2-h resistance exercise session. Subjects received a bolus of test drink before and every 15 min during exercise, providing 0.15 g·kg–1·h–1 carbohydrate with (CHO + PRO) or without (CHO) 0.15 g·kg–1·h–1 protein hydrolysate. Continuous intravenous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine and L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine were applied, and blood and muscle biopsies were collected to assess whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during exercise. Protein coingestion lowered whole body protein breakdown rates by 8.4 ± 3.6% (P = 0.066), compared with the ingestion of carbohydrate only, and augmented protein oxidation and synthesis rates by 77 ± 17 and 33 ± 3%, respectively (P < 0.01). As a consequence, whole body net protein balance was negative in CHO, whereas a positive net balance was achieved after the CHO + PRO treatment (–4.4 ± 0.3 vs. 16.3 ± 0.4 µmol phenylalanine·kg–1·h–1, respectively; P < 0.01). In accordance, mixed muscle protein fractional synthetic rate was 49 ± 22% higher after protein coingestion (0.088 ± 0.012 and 0.060 ± 0.004%/h in CHO + PRO vs. CHO treatment, respectively; P < 0.05). We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein coingestion stimulates whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during resistance-type exercise.

Theis is a recent one about timing in fed state.

Protein coingestion stimulates muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise

In contrast to the effect of nutritional intervention on postexercise muscle protein synthesis, little is known about the potential to modulate protein synthesis during exercise. This study investigates the effect of protein coingestion with carbohydrate on muscle protein synthesis during resistance-type exercise. Ten healthy males were studied in the evening after they consumed a standardized diet throughout the day. Subjects participated in two experiments in which they ingested either carbohydrate or carbohydrate with protein during a 2-h resistance exercise session. Subjects received a bolus of test drink before and every 15 min during exercise, providing 0.15 g·kg–1·h–1 carbohydrate with (CHO + PRO) or without (CHO) 0.15 g·kg–1·h–1 protein hydrolysate. Continuous intravenous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine and L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine were applied, and blood and muscle biopsies were collected to assess whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during exercise. Protein coingestion lowered whole body protein breakdown rates by 8.4 ± 3.6% (P = 0.066), compared with the ingestion of carbohydrate only, and augmented protein oxidation and synthesis rates by 77 ± 17 and 33 ± 3%, respectively (P < 0.01). As a consequence, whole body net protein balance was negative in CHO, whereas a positive net balance was achieved after the CHO + PRO treatment (–4.4 ± 0.3 vs. 16.3 ± 0.4 µmol phenylalanine·kg–1·h–1, respectively; P < 0.01). In accordance, mixed muscle protein fractional synthetic rate was 49 ± 22% higher after protein coingestion (0.088 ± 0.012 and 0.060 ± 0.004%/h in CHO + PRO vs. CHO treatment, respectively; P < 0.05). We conclude that, even in a fed state, protein coingestion stimulates whole body and muscle protein synthesis rates during resistance-type exercise.

Theis is a recent one about timing in fed state.The full text of this study reveals the limited applicability of its results. First off, the timing of each meal and snack prior to testing was not specified, with the exception of the final meal, which was finished 2 hrs prior to arriving at the lab. During the infusion of the metabolic tracers prior to blood sampling and muscle biopsy, another hour elapsed before the exercise protocol was engaged. This created a 3-hr lag period between the final meal and the training bout.

Secondly, given that a grand total 78g of protein was consumed throughout the day prior to testing, it’s safe to assume that it was spread over a minimum of 3 meals, containing roughly 25-30g protein. Think about this: 25-30g protein ingested 3 hours prior to a 2-hour resistance training bout is not only sub-optimal, but it's a highly unlikely practice amongst competitive and recreational strength athletes & bodybuilders.

I typically recommend the following pre-workout protein dosing: 0.25g/lb within a solid meal finished 60-90 minutes before training, or 0.25g/lb in a shake ingested within 60 minutes of training. This protocol would diminish, if not completely negate the need to compensate for poor pre-workout protein timing and dosage, as was the case with mid-training protein hydrolysate ingestion. As a final note, one of the researchers responsible designing this study works for DSM Specialty Foods, whose product PeptoPro® (better yet, PeptoBro) was the protein supplement used in this trial.

I would have agreed if you said this before this study by cribb:

Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

PURPOSE: Some studies report greater muscle hypertrophy during resistance exercise (RE) training from supplement timing (i.e., the strategic consumption of protein and carbohydrate before and/or after each workout). However, no studies have examined whether this strategy provides greater muscle hypertrophy or strength development compared with supplementation at other times during the day. The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of supplement timing compared with supplementation in the hours not close to the workout on muscle-fiber hypertrophy, strength, and body composition during a 10-wk RE program. METHODS: In a single-blind, randomized protocol, resistance-trained males were matched for strength and placed into one of two groups; the PRE-POST group consumed a supplement (1 g x kg(-1) body weight) containing protein/creatine/glucose immediately before and after RE. The MOR-EVE group consumed the same dose of the same supplement in the morning and late evening. All assessments were completed the week before and after 10 wk of structured, supervised RE training. Assessments included strength (1RM, three exercises), body composition (DEXA), and vastus lateralis muscle biopsies for determination of muscle fiber type (I, IIa, IIx), cross-sectional area (CSA), contractile protein, creatine (Cr), and glycogen content. RESULTS: PRE-POST demonstrated a greater (P < 0.05) increase in lean body mass and 1RM strength in two of three assessments. The changes in body composition were supported by a greater (P < 0.05) increase in CSA of the type II fibers and contractile protein content. PRE-POST supplementation also resulted in higher muscle Cr and glycogen values after the training program (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Supplement timing represents a simple but effective strategy that enhances the adaptations desired from RE-training.

They just used dextrose and is the only study (I think) which looked at workout shakes without fasting as like in real world. And their end points were strength & LBm rather than MPS & MPB by most studies.

For some reason, the study quoted by Alan doesnt show up in pubmed. I couldn'tt find even in the author list. But I have read the arguement before.

Greenhaff PL, Peirce N, Simpson E, Hazell M, Babraj J, Waddell T, Smith K, Rennie M. Dose-response relationship during hyperaminoacidaemia between insulin and leg protein turnover in healthy young men studied by tracer amino acid exchange.



So is excess calories from complex carbs.
My "study" is not in Pubmed. What has been linked by others is a monthly research review I do on an independent basis.

As for the Cribb study you abstracted above, it's true that the subjects weren't fasted. However, it compared different timing of a whey/glucose/creatine mix -- it did not compare a fast vs slow carb source. If they indeed did that, then I can see you having a basis to argue, but they didn't.

Think about this: 25-30g protein ingested 3 hours prior to a 2-hour resistance training bout is not only sub-optimal, but it's a highly unlikely practice amongst competitive and recreational strength athletes & bodybuilders.

I wouldn't go that to say it is highly unlikely among recreational lifters. Maybe not compeitive lifters. I saw the protocol and saw nothing blatantly wrong with it.

Also the 3 hr gap was intentional to make sure the plasma amino attained steady state.

If they had more protein thorughout the day, would they have seen a difference? I don't know nor would you.

As a final note, one of the researchers responsible designing this study works for DSM Specialty Foods, whose product PeptoPro® (better yet, PeptoBro) was the protein supplement used in this trial.

He was the 4th author. Generally the first authors are the one who design the experiment and study stuff. So not sure how much he influenced the study.

And come on, Alan, For the Cribb study, cribb used the AST protocol for exercise and the AST protein too! Take out the cribb study and nutrient timing is a load of shit. And it was not blinded either nor do we have any clue what the subjects ate. Atleast in the above study, they were given food packets and was blinded too.

My "study" is not in Pubmed. What has been linked by others is a monthly research review I do on an independent basis.


I know. I was talking about the specific study in question.

As for the Cribb study you abstracted above, it's true that the subjects weren't fasted. However, it compared different timing of a whey/glucose/creatine mix -- it did not compare a fast vs slow carb source. If they indeed did that, then I can see you having a basis to argue, but they didn't.

Come on, ALan. I would be arguing if I said complex carbs were better or equal to dextrose.

Until someone comes up with a study which compares complex carbs and simple carbs and show no significant change in LBM and strength, then we have a good case for complex carbs. Until then, complex carbs is enough is just an interesting hypothesis.

And great newsletter by the way!!

I wouldn't go that to say it is highly unlikely among recreational lifters. Maybe not compeitive lifters. I saw the protocol and saw nothing blatantly wrong with it.

Also the 3 hr gap was intentional to make sure the plasma amino attained steady state.

If they had more protein thorughout the day, would they have seen a difference? I don't know nor would you.



He was the 4th author. Generally the first authors are the one who design the experiment and study stuff. So not sure how much he influenced the study.

And come on, Alan, For the Cribb study, cribb used the AST protocol for exercise and the AST protein too! Take out the cribb study and nutrient timing is a load of shit. And it was not blinded either nor do we have any clue what the subjects ate. Atleast in the above study, they were given food packets and was blinded too.
I'll still maintain that the Beelen study is inapplicable to most athletes who do not wait 3 hours after a meal to train for 2 hours. As for the other stuff, I thought you were arguing in favor of dextrose over other carb sources - if that's not the case, then we're not in disagreement, broski.

I am arguing against people who are arguing for complex carbs.

What do you reccommend for complex carbs? I dont think I can sit and eat oats and stuff after working out.

And what is ur reccomendations for protein Alan? Or are you in favour with Lyle reccomendations?

I am arguing against people who are arguing for complex carbs. What sport/population are we talking about here? And are we saying "complex" in the colloquial sense which implies less refined, or are you referring to polysaccharides? These things make a difference when forming arguments against this or that.What do you reccommend for complex carbs? I dont think I can sit and eat oats and stuff after working out. Funny, I can eat anything and its mother after working out. Oats are no problem for me, neither are any other grain products for that matter. Nore are potatoes, fruit, peas, beans, corn, squash etc [insert your favorite carb source here]. Have what you enjoy most, amount (especially amount by the end of the day) rather than type is what's important. And what is ur reccomendations for protein Alan? Or are you in favour with Lyle reccomendations?It varies with the individual. Maintenance needs are less, dieting needs are more, highly trained individuals tend to have a more efficient utilization of protein and thus require less than individuals who are either novices or are in a novel/more demanding phase of training. All in all, a gram per pound of target bodyweight is right in the middle of the ballpark. Lyle and I read the same research, so in all likelihood, we agree on protein requirements.

It varies with the individual. Maintenance needs are less, dieting needs are more, highly trained individuals tend to have a more efficient utilization of protein and thus require less than individuals who are either novices or are in a novel/more demanding phase of training

I don't have his book, but Lyle reccommends around 1.4 gms/lb for muscle growth for strength athletes.