Well, here's what I have right now:

macros:

Highish Carb: 230/288/73
Moderate Carb: 230/230/73
Low Carb: 230/173/73

2 high carb days
2 moderate carb days
3 low carb days

meals:

High Carb:

50g Nitrean, 80g Rolled Oats, 1 Apple
Gym
5oz Chicken Breast, 80g Instant Grits, 1 Banana
1 Can Tuna, 80g Oats, 1 Grapefruit
3 Eggs, 3 Eggwhites, 8oz Broccoli, 10 Almonds
226g 2% Cottage Cheese, 32g Natural PB

Mod Carb:

60g Nitrean, 50g Rolled Oats, 1 Apple
Gym
5oz Chicken Breast, 60g Instant Grits, 1 Banana
1 Can Tuna, 50g Oats, 1 Grapefruit
3 Eggs, 3 Eggwhites, 8oz Broccoli, 15 Almonds
226g 2% Cottage Cheese, 32g Natural PB

Low Carb:

60g Nitrean, 40g Rolled Oats, 1 Apple
Gym/Rest
5oz Chicken Breast, 40g Instant Grits
1 Can Tuna, 40g Oats, 1 Grapefruit
3 Eggs, 3 Eggwhites, 8oz Broccoli, 18 Almonds
226g 2% Cottage Cheese, 32g Natural PB

Supps:
1 multi
1 zinc
6g creatine
2 fish oil caps with every meal
12g xtend while I lift

I'm basing it on this article (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=811783). The goal for now is just maintenance.

This plan is in line with the proposed carb macros (ex: 230g carbs on moderate carb days) but 34g of those 230 are coming from fiber so I'm only getting 196g of digestible carbs. That's a 136 cal difference. Do you guys think I should not count carbs from fiber towards my total? Or should I just give this a go and add carbs if things don't move in the right direction?

Protein and fat fit into the macros up top.

Any other problems? All constructive criticism is appreciated. :)

EDIT: This probably should have gone in the Nutrition/Supp forum since I'm not cutting. :doh:

whoa, I can't believe it. I actually did this plan during May. I didn't like it but I decided to stick with it just to be able to give some constructive feedback on it. If finally paid off.

Ok, sorry for geeking out there.

I didn't like it. I felt the fat carbs were just fillers and weren't doing much of anything. I didn't shed a whole lot of fat but I didn't gain any, and I did gain some strength.

I think you might want to consult with Mastover or Merk. Merk did it pretty did it and got down to 155 from 180. Also Hort just posted an article some where, can't remember where, when I find it I'll link it.

In the meantime. Merk shared this link with me.

Skip's carb cycling (http://fitness.skippypodar.net/carbcycling.html)

Trust the plan George and try it for a month to see what happens. Just count the macros from sources that matter. For example, don't count the carbs in nuts or eggs but I'd -start- by counting all the carbs in the oats and grits etc... if you're progressing to quickly, you can compensate by slightly upping the carb grams.

Likewise- only count the protein in your meat dairy and ignore the protein in the oats etc.

I'm a big fan of carb cycling- feel free to PM me.

whoa, I can't believe it. I actually did this plan during May. I didn't like it but I decided to stick with it just to be able to give some constructive feedback on it. If finally paid off.

Ok, sorry for geeking out there.
:lol:
I didn't like it. I felt the fat carbs were just fillers and weren't doing much of anything. I didn't shed a whole lot of fat but I didn't gain any, and I did gain some strength.
I've used something similar but more basic for a long time. Generally, I eat more carbs on days when I lift weights. Since this worked, I think carb cycling will also work. :confused:
I think you might want to consult with Mastover or Merk. Merk did it pretty did it and got down to 155 from 180. Also Hort just posted an article some where, can't remember where, when I find it I'll link it.

In the meantime. Merk shared this link with me.

Skip's carb cycling (http://fitness.skippypodar.net/carbcycling.html)
Thanks for the link. Hopefully Mast or Merk stop in with some feedback.
Trust the plan George and try it for a month to see what happens.
Alright. :nod:
Just count the macros from sources that matter. For example, don't count the carbs in nuts or eggs but I'd -start- by counting all the carbs in the oats and grits etc... if you're progressing to quickly, you can compensate by slightly upping the carb grams.
I've seen you mention this before. It's a concept that is slightly worrying to me since it leaves so many calories unaccounted for -- at least in my mind. I'll give it a try, though. :)
I'm a big fan of carb cycling- feel free to PM me.
I'll shoot you a PM if I have any questions down the line. Thanks for the advice!

As Hort mentioned, stay loyal to the plan for about 4 weeks. Carb cycling can work well, although I prefer other methods. Just some thoughts (without confusing things further)

~Drop your fat calories on high carb days by 20 grams.
~Increase your protein by 50 grams on low carb days.
~White potato for PWO carb.
~Eliminate the zinc if you are taking a multi, and substitute A good GDA with your higher GI carb meals, Chromium POLYNICOTINATE...not PICOLINATE
~Whether you are training with a 800 calorie surplus, or 800 calorie deficit, you are in the gym for one purpose - TO BUILD MUSCLE. I prefer dropping volume on lower calories, but this means I am training at a higher intensity level. No such thing as "maintaining" IMO. You are still attempting to increase your 5 rep max on compounds. If, as an example, you do 3 sets of 5 reps on squats, and 2 sets of 8-10 on leg presses, yet can still meander over to the treadmill immediately afterwards for a happy 10 minute cooldown....guess what? IT'S BACK TO THE SQUAT RACK BUDDY! You didn't train hard enough!

Ha, not yelling at you George, just trying to give you a pep talk :D

But, I hope you see my point about the training. :nod:

Woah, thanks for all of the information, Mast. I'll post up another diet once I work in all of your and Hort's suggestions.

~Eliminate the zinc if you are taking a multi, and substitute A good GDA with your higher GI carb meals, Chromium POLYNICOTINATE...not PICOLINATE
Would this (http://www.vitacost.com/Olympian-Labs-Chromium-Polynicotinate?csrc=PPCADWLT-chromium_polynicotinate&s_kwcid=chromium%20polynicotinate|1742946131#Ingre dientFacts)work or did you have something else in mind?
If, as an example, you do 3 sets of 5 reps on squats, and 2 sets of 8-10 on leg presses, yet can still meander over to the treadmill immediately afterwards for a happy 10 minute cooldown....guess what? IT'S BACK TO THE SQUAT RACK BUDDY! You didn't train hard enough!
Duly noted! :o
Ha, not yelling at you George, just trying to give you a pep talk :D
I appreciate it. :nod:

Would this (http://www.vitacost.com/Olympian-Labs-Chromium-Polynicotinate?csrc=PPCADWLT-chromium_polynicotinate&s_kwcid=chromium%20polynicotinate|1742946131#Ingre dientFacts)work or did you have something else in mind

Never heard of Olympian. Get a brand that contains a niacin bound (usually 2gr niacin) polynicotinate. I, along with many of my pro natural friends, use SOLGAR or VITAMIN WORLD brand. Take 0ne cap with your PWO, and other higher GI carb meal(s).

Never heard of Olympian. Get a brand that contains a niacin bound (usually 2gr niacin) polynicotinate. I, along with many of my pro natural friends, use SOLGAR or VITAMIN WORLD brand. Take 0ne cap with your PWO, and other higher GI carb meal(s).

OK. I just ordered two bottles of the Solgar brand. :)

Sorry this took so long.

Higher Carb:

60g Nitrean, 90g oats, 1 apple
1.5c Egg Whites, 10oz white potato, 2 banana
1 can tuna, 90g oats, 1 grapefruit
4oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli
4oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli
226g 2% cottage cheese, 22g natural PB

Moderate Carb:

60g Nitrean, 80g oats, 1 apple
1.5c Egg Whites, 6oz white potato, 1 banana
1 can tuna, 80g oats, 1 grapefruit
4oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli, 15 almonds
4oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli, 15 almonds
226g 2% cottage cheese, 32g natural PB

Low Carb:

60g Nitrean, 40g oats, 1 apple
2c Egg Whites, 6oz white potato, 1 banana
1 can tuna, 40g oats, 1 grapefruit
6oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli, 15 almonds
6oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli, 15 almonds
240g 2% cottage cheese, 32g natural PB

This might be the most protein I've ever eaten. :eek:

Macros look pretty close to this:

Highish Carb: 230/288/53
Moderate Carb: 230/230/73
Low Carb: 280/173/73

Carb and protein macros are only coming from carb and protein sources. Fat is from everything totaled up.

This might be the most protein I've ever eaten. :eek:

Macros look pretty close to this:

Highish Carb: 230/288/53
Moderate Carb: 230/230/73
Low Carb: 280/173/73



You can drop the protein to 200gr on High day. The higher glycogen totals will assist in getting the most from your protein anyway. If you wish, you can add an extra 2 scoops of Xtend post workout on High day. This will give you a blood amino spike right when you need it.

You can drop the protein to 200gr on High day. The higher glycogen totals will assist in getting the most from your protein anyway. If you wish, you can add an extra 2 scoops of Xtend post workout on High day. This will give you a blood amino spike right when you need it.

Alright, high carb day has been changed to:

60g Nitrean, 90g oats, 1 apple
1c Egg Whites, 10oz white potato, 2 banana
1 can tuna, 90g oats, 1 grapefruit
3oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli
3oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli
226g 2% cottage cheese, 22g natural PB

I'll also try the extra xtend.

Thank you for all of your help, Mast. :)

You can drop the protein to 200gr on High day. The higher glycogen totals will assist in getting the most from your protein anyway. If you wish, you can add an extra 2 scoops of Xtend post workout on High day. This will give you a blood amino spike right when you need it.

:tucool:

I've seen you mention this before. It's a concept that is slightly worrying to me since it leaves so many calories unaccounted for -- at least in my mind. I'll give it a try, though. :)

I'll shoot you a PM if I have any questions down the line. Thanks for the advice!
Great-

Looks like you've got a good grasp of the concepts and you're doing your homework.

Happy B-Day. You can check your diet of your to do list. Now go eat a big steak and lots of cake.

Happy B-Day.
Thanks. :)
Now go eat a big steak and lots of cake.
The cake is a li- err, no celebration today. I might go out to eat with a friend later this week, though.

George, how is this going so far? I am starting to look into carb cycling because I am stuck with my progress so I was wondering what your feedback was so far. Do you not take any whey protein after your workout? Just a PWO meal?

Mastover, can you please explain the point of eliminating zinc? Is there anything wrong if my multi has this? Also, what does Chromium POLYNICOTINATE do for you?

~Eliminate the zinc if you are taking a multi

why do you suggest that specifically?

George, how is this going so far? I am starting to look into carb cycling because I am stuck with my progress so I was wondering what your feedback was so far.
Heh, I only started yesterday. Nothing to note, really. I did notice that I'm thirstier than usual. :p I think it's really too soon to tell. A month would be a better time-frame to compare results.

As far as difficulty/energy levels go, I really have no complaints.

If your progress has stalled then I suggest you either give this or something else a try. It's always good to see how various nutritional protocols work for people. Everyone's different so I think it's important to experiment on yourself. :nod:
Do you not take any whey protein after your workout? Just a PWO meal?
Yeah, I just eat a meal after I come home and shower.

Mastover, can you please explain the point of eliminating zinc? Is there anything wrong if my multi has this? Also, what does Chromium POLYNICOTINATE do for you?

It's a GDA (glucose disposal agent). It minimizes insulin threshold allowing nutrients to enter the muscle cells. NOT the fat cells. Makes insulin release more effective, giving the body the opportunity to remove blood sugar. Usually stacked with glutamine and vanadyl sulphate. Take 10 minutes before high GI carb meals.

If your diet and training is spot on, you can eat more carbs without getting fat.

Why do you feel you need extra zinc if you are already getting it from your food and your multi?

why do you suggest that specifically?

I'm not suggesting it specifically, but same question.....Why do you feel you need extra zinc?

Why do you feel you need extra zinc if you are already getting it from your food and your multi?
Well, the reason I was taking it was that Charles Poliquin mentioned that a lot of people are deficient in Zinc and it may help reduce male breasts:

Q: I have man-boobs. Not gyno from steroids or related to puberty, just a lot of fat storage on my chest. It seems to stay there when I cut down, too. Anything I can do non-surgically? What does this say about my hormone profile?

A: Most of the time, just about every time in fact, it's a sign of a zinc deficiency. Zinc is the best anti-aromatase.

How many people eat a lot of organic nuts? How many people eat unrefined grains? How many people eat quality grass-fed meat? Scallops and oysters? Just about everyone is zinc deficient, especially people who lift weights.

Low zinc means increased aromatase activity, and that means man-boobs. In the last ten years, I haven't seen a single male first-time client who wasn't zinc deficient. (http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/question_of_strength_april&cr=)

Can't say it was really doing much if anything for me but it was worth a shot.
I'm pretty sure I just have gyno.

It's a GDA (glucose disposal agent). It minimizes insulin threshold allowing nutrients to enter the muscle cells. NOT the fat cells. Makes insulin release more effective, giving the body the opportunity to remove blood sugar. Usually stacked with glutamine and vanadyl sulphate. Take 10 minutes before high GI carb meals.

If your diet and training is spot on, you can eat more carbs without getting fat.

Why do you feel you need extra zinc if you are already getting it from your food and your multi?


Thanks Mastover. I wasn't saying I needed the extra zinc, I was just wondering why you were saying to take a multi WITHOUT it. Previously, I never looked for a multi without zinc.

I think I might give CP (and carb cycling) a try, since I can't seem to be able to build any muscle. I have been stuck around 25% BF for many months now.

Well, the reason I was taking it was that Charles Poliquin mentioned that a lot of people are deficient in Zinc and it may help reduce male breasts:



Can't say it was really doing much if anything for me but it was worth a shot.
I'm pretty sure I just have gyno.

Mineral deficiencies are common. For zinc, google up how you can administer a simple test which you can do at home. If concurred, eat more cruciferous veggies and look into CLA.

Thanks Mastover. I wasn't saying I needed the extra zinc, I was just wondering why you were saying to take a multi WITHOUT it. Previously, I never looked for a multi without zinc.


Where did I make the suggestion to use a multi that contained no zinc? :confused:

Just curious.

Where did I make the suggestion to use a multi that contained no zinc? :confused:

Just curious.

:o Sorry about that. I see what you meant now. I didn't notice George had "zinc" listed as a supplement. :bang:

Mineral deficiencies are common. For zinc, google up how you can administer a simple test which you can do at home. If concurred, eat more cruciferous veggies and look into CLA.

Interesting. I googled, but what is the connection between Zinc and CLA?

I've been taking CLA partly due to it's anti-cancer reported benefits.

:o Sorry about that. I see what you meant now. I didn't notice George had "zinc" listed as a supplement. :bang:

Ha, not a prob. :) I just wanted to be sure I wasn't giving out bad advices. :lol:

Interesting. I googled, but what is the connection between Zinc and CLA?

I've been taking CLA partly due to it's anti-cancer reported benefits.

Anti-aromatase properties. Inactivates estrogen receptors, one of which being the ability to induce anti-tumor effects on human breast cancer cells.

Good call on using CLA, MB.

Anti-aromatase properties. Inactivates estrogen receptors, one of which being the ability to induce anti-tumor effects on human breast cancer cells.

Good call on using CLA, MB.

Interesting. Might also benefit my testosterone replacement therapy then.

It's reported colon cancer preventative studies got me interested. I didn't have colon cancer, but lymphoma that presented in the colon. So I thought it might still be worth taking. I don't always use it, but have gone through several bottles sporadically over the last couple of years.

I've also started eating a lot of grass fed beef. Super Target's carry ground beef and bison so it's easy to get, although a bit more expensive.

The only thing that concerns me about CLA is it's reported inflammatory properties, although it seems it's controversial as to whether it's not actually offset by the antioxidative properties.

Thanks for all the knowledge you drop around here :)

The only thing that concerns me about CLA is it's reported inflammatory properties, although it seems it's controversial as to whether it's not actually offset by the antioxidative properties.


These same apprehensions could be said for many, many other compounds we use. IE- fish oil. I know people who refuse to take fish oil because they feel it does just the opposite of what it's purported to do. Including causing disruptions in protein sysnthesis. We all have our reasons, quirks, concerns, etc. regarding natural substances. For instance, whether I'm taking higher doses of minerals (ie vanadyl sulphate, potassium pre-contest) or drinking tons of pure spring water, I like to drink nothing but distilled water for two weeks, to flush out any excess minerals I may have "OD'd" on. With potassium, though, I believe it is only effective through whole foods. NOT in supplement form. Therefore the abundant white potato consumption when zoning into a show. Possibly just another one of my quirks. LOL. :cool:

If I need some help with some people reviewing my "plan" on carb cycling, should I start another thread?

Alright, high carb day has been changed to:
60g Nitrean, 90g oats, 1 apple
1c Egg Whites, 10oz white potato, 2 banana
1 can tuna, 90g oats, 1 grapefruit
3oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli
3oz chicken breast, 4oz broccoli
226g 2% cottage cheese, 22g natural PB



I havent seen much on here about grapefruit, but isnt it just a ton of sugar? If im wrong, please point me in the right direction, it just seems like putting down about a coke's worth of sugar is just... *shudders*

I havent seen much on here about grapefruit, but isnt it just a ton of sugar? If im wrong, please point me in the right direction, it just seems like putting down about a coke's worth of sugar is just... *shudders*

Are you really afraid of eating 100 calories worth of fruit that's brimming with phytochemicals and other nutrients? :confused: It's not as if they're composed purely of high fructose corn syrup. They're fine. Give 'em a try. :)

lol, i just remember seeing something bad about em. but ur right, for some reason my brain farted and i forgot that it was sugar from fruit and not chemically made sugar :p anyway, i love eating grapefruit, had just been scared for a while... guess my brain farted for a long time:o

As a little side question, how do you put down 2c of egg whites? i struggle at .75c