This is driving me crazy.
I am trying to estimate based on my occupation and my age, what my BMR is, so i can eat properly for a bulking diet.

Here are my particulars. I know there are a TON of educated people here who can help to lend an opinion, and i know that is all it can be based on not having an actual series of tests with a doctor, but PLEASE shed some light on this.

Age:
27

Sex:
Male

Genetics:
Irish/Ukranian/Polish... Not a whole lot of FAT people in my family. A few uncles which are really super thickly built (the Ukrainians and Polish) and mostly people who were thin until hitting middle age (The Irish) and then still not fat, just sort of pot bellied based on lifestyle and life choices... HOWEVER, i was not thin as a child. at 23 i was about 205lbs and then lost a bunch of weight doing low carb... as a kid my mother was overweight after she gave birth to myself, and then was always "thick" from then on. And we were low income and ate rather poorly.

LIfestyle:
Non smoker/non drinker

Occupation:
This one is a biggie. Please hear me out on what i do:

Ever come to las vegas? There are people all over the strip working timeshare who's job it is to get you to sign up to see a timeshare resort.
That's me, I am that guy. I start my day around 8:30am, and finish between 2-2:30. I work outside. It is HOT. For example, today it was 110F (or 43C) by 12 noon. The morning LOW was 91F (33C).
I move around alot. I am always going across the sidewalk back and fourth looking for people to talk to. On average in a six hour day (with 30 minutes of sitting or little activity) i am back and fourth across the same area.... well maybe hundreds of times. I am not running, but briskly running from one side of the very wide sidewalk to the next.
And then the heat. It is hot as i said, does that factor into things?

Here is a google earth view of the place i work:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/stevenj-89145/booth.jpg

I work out 4 times a week, i am using a bulking program i posted about here, and it looks like this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/stevenj-89145/workout-log.jpg

I am eating between 2600-3000 kCal a day, but today a trainer at the gym i go to had a talk to me, he suggested that i am eating most likely far too little based on my occupation etc...

Btw. in the media forum, someone estimated me at high 20% bodyfat, which really sucks. Here is my pic from today before working and long after a meal:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/stevenj-89145/bf-jun-30-front.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/stevenj-89145/bf-jun-30.jpg

So sorry about writing yet ANOTHER looooong post, but i really hope someone can shed light on my situation.

Thanks again!

Your job will definitely up your BMR for the day by a good deal. You're getting enough water right?

We'll need you height and weight for a better BMR estimate though, if you wouldn't mind.

While this doesn't help you, I love your picture with the "bus shown for scale." :lol:

You're job will definitely up your BMR for the day by a good deal. You're getting enough water right?

We'll need you height and weight for a better BMR estimate though, if you wouldn't mind.

oh, i am sorry.

I am 5' 9" (175cm/1.75m)
Weight (as of June 23rd in the morning) 178.5 lb (80.1kg)

as for water, i drink at least ten twenty oz bottles of water a day. i also take a good super b complex, 2 in the arm and 2 in the pm. i eat at:

7:30am
11:00am
2-3pm
7-8pm
10-11pm

just depends where in the hour my meals fall. i hope that is better.
While this doesn't help you, I love your picture with the "bus shown for scale."

Heh, well without that, you've no idea how large the buildings are lol!

exrx calculator says BMR is 1875. Your activity level is kind of tricky though. You have somewhere between a lot of light hours and a lot of moderate hours because a light run will fall into moderate. Most likely no heavy hours in the day. You would have to figure it out but my guesses based on what you said were in the low 4000 total. That made a little sense because I'm a lot lighter and I'm supposed to be up around 3500 for bulking.

Maybe there is a better calculator. It's at
http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html

One thing is for sure, you get your cardio health ;).

None of this is exact, these formulas are all estimates based on averages. You may or may not be on or near the average. So as long as you are in the ballpark, its not a big deal at all. Set your guesstimate on needed calories for your goal, eat that, and reevaluate every couple of weeks to see if you are making progress toward your goal. If you've been on plan and are not moving toward the goal or moving slowly, adjust.

So don't stress. Plan, execute, evaluate, and plan again.

Holy cow!

So since my diet is between 2500-3000 calories a day, and my workouts are there as well, is there any chance of actually gaining anything like this?

I will give you an idea of a few daily diets.
These are NOT grouped into meals, but individual ingredients of meals, just less time that way to enter them:

(body fortress you see over and over is protein powder, not a candy bar or something - and quaker weight control oatmeal is just a higher protein oatmeal advertised to fill you up more with extra protein, other than that it is just regular oatmeal without a little cinnamon and brown sugar in it)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/stevenj-89145/june-26.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/stevenj-89145/june-27.jpghttp://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/stevenj-89145/june-29.jpg

I guess 24-25%BF. When you came down from over 200. Were you working out?

I think we can give you a 1.55 activity factor. so with an 1875 BMR X 1.55 = 2906.25 calories to maintain your present weight. To lose weight, I suggest 2 pounds a week so 2906 - 1000 calories would be 1906 calories a day. Read the stickies and pick out your ratios of carbs, protein and fat. I recommend 60/20/20. But pick the one you feel suits you. I recommend you use as few simple carbs as possible.

What's a target, keep looking at the mirror and let it tell you. I am guess you might look good at the 155-165 range. It is up to you. You don't need to bulk. You do need to increase your weights used. Look around at workouts recommended here.

I guess 24-25%BF. When you came down from over 200. Were you working out?

I think we can give you a 1.55 activity factor. so with an 1875 BMR X 1.55 = 2906.25 calories to maintain your present weight. To lose weight, I suggest 2 pounds a week so 2906 - 1000 calories would be 1906 calories a day. Read the stickies and pick out your ratios of carbs, protein and fat. I recommend 60/20/20. But pick the one you feel suits you. I recommend you use as few simple carbs as possible.

What's a target, keep looking at the mirror and let it tell you. I am guess you might look good at the 155-165 range. It is up to you. You don't need to bulk. You do need to increase your weights used. Look around at workouts recommended here.

ok, so if no bulking, then cutting?
Now i am completely confused.

i am not against cutting, however I was under the impression that i should gain what i have lost due to inactivity in the gym, and then try and maintain what muscle memory has given back while i do a cutting phase.

however my ultimate goal is to "look good, feel great" so i wonder if you are correct and am i at a stage where i would actually look "buff" by cutting at the present time.

does that make sense? this is alot of newness to me (that being following a plan, not just going in and working out and not ever logging things etc) and i just want to do things right.

so then... to cut or to continue to try and bulk. that is the (new) question. or is it?

What is your goal? Is it to gain mass, lose fat, a little of both? Each goal suggests a different diet and exercise strategy.

If your goal is to bulk, then you will want to add 400-500 calories a day to your maintanence.

If your goal is to cut, then reduce by 500 calories a day to lose a pound a week.

What you need to determine is your specific caloric output. I suggest a direct measurement rather than a formula-based approach - buy a HRM like the Polar F11 and wear it all day (or at least a good chunk of the day). It will tell you your caloric output based on your personal statistics (height, weight, age, and most importantly VO2max and heart rate). This will be the most accurate measure for you, especially given the unusual circumstances of your job.

Conversely, you could simply not worry about it, take 10-11x your bodyweight as a calorie target (1800-2000 cals per day, which will help you lose about 2+ lbs per week). If you want to bulk, I would suggest 15-16x (~2700-2800 calories). Your activity level and the heat will make you burn calories at a faster rate, so these may need to be upped for a Vegas street job.

I would not bulk at your body fat level right now. You will probably add more fat than muscle, making you more frustrated.

But that doesn't mean you don't need to lift hard, you need to make diet and lifting the core of your recomposition plan.

If you want to bulk, I would suggest 15-16x (~2700-2800 calories). Your activity level and the heat will make you burn calories at a faster rate, so these may need to be upped for a Vegas street job.

WOW, That's way lower than what the calculators come up with which is interesting news to me personally too. I apologize to the OP for offering such a high figure.

The Heart Rate Monitor sounds like a great answer. Steven is obviously concerned which I don't think is all bad since attention to detail saves wasted workouts. Not ignoring real data on an 8x5 light cardio workout that can be collected easily is an intelligent approach to eliminating the concern and having a confident baseline.

WOW, That's way lower than what the calculators come up with which is interesting news to me personally too. I apologize to the OP for offering such a high figure.

The Heart Rate Monitor sounds like a great answer. Steven is obviously concerned which I don't think is all bad since attention to detail saves wasted workouts. Not ignoring real data on an 8x5 light cardio workout that can be collected easily is an intelligent approach to eliminating the concern and having a confident baseline.

Well, not everybody likes the 9x or 10x BW formula. I, personally, don't care for it at all. It would have me eating 1450 kcal (or less) per day if I were trying to cut which is way too low. There are plenty of people here who would recommend starting out with higher calories and adjusting downward rather than starting out low and then having to go even lower. When I'm doing my usual amount of exercise I maintain on 16x BW.

So I don't think you were wrong to recommend a higher intake :).

Well, not everybody likes the 9x or 10x BW formula. I, personally, don't care for it at all. It would have me eating 1450 kcal (or less) per day if I were trying to cut which is way too low. There are plenty of people here who would recommend starting out with higher calories and adjusting downward rather than starting out low and then having to go even lower. When I'm doing my usual amount of exercise I maintain on 16x BW.

So I don't think you were wrong to recommend a higher intake :).

Yes, but looking at your avatar and workout log, you're already in good shape, and your metabolism is probably pretty high. You also don't have much excess weight on you.

This advice really only applies to people who weigh more than they should (20%+ BF for men, as an example). I do not advocate anyone going below 1500-1600 calories, regardless of their weight (I would suggest more output if they are under 140 lbs and are still at high bf%).

Yes, but looking at your avatar and workout log, you're already in good shape, and your metabolism is probably pretty high. You also don't have much excess weight on you.

This advice really only applies to people who weigh more than they should (20%+ BF for men, as an example). I do not advocate anyone going below 1500-1600 calories, regardless of their weight (I would suggest more output if they are under 140 lbs and are still at high bf%).

Even for somebody who is very out of shape, I think the 9xBW/10xBW formula can be off, especially when you start increasing exercise. It's an even cruder estimation than, say, the Harris-Benedict formula (which, unlike the nxBW formula takes into account activity level) and should only be a starting point, IMO. I don't even know where 9 or 10x BW originated. Tom Venuto recommends 12-13xBW for fat loss but he also says that's a very crude estimate and needs to be adjusted depending on other variables (e.g. age, gender, body fat etc.). Furthermore, he agrees with the ACSM recommendation that in most cases calories should not go below 1200 for women or 1800 for men.

I think the best way to get an idea of your TDEE is to monitor your diet for 2 weeks without making any adjustments and then averaging out your daily intake. If you've neither gained nor lost weight during those weeks, then you've eaten at maintenance.

There are several different ways to go about this. I'm just pointing out that not everybody agrees with the nxBW formula (even for out of shape individuals) :).

I would not bulk at your body fat level right now. You will probably add more fat than muscle, making you more frustrated.Agreed.

But if you don't want to cut, don't cut either.

I think 16X your body weight is a good place to start. See where your weight goes from there, and adjust as needed. You might have a faster or slower metabolism than typical, and might surprise yourself.

Are you monitoring your body fat percentage at all? Because based on the amount of fat on your frame, it will be difficult for you to visually assess the amount of lean body mass you're adding. Unless you are using a tape measure, or skinfold, or biometric impedence, it will be hard to tell how your weight distribution is coming along.

I'm basing this on my own personal experiences. There really is no hard and fast rule, only rules of thumb.

Agreed.

But if you don't want to cut, don't cut either.

I think 16X your body weight is a good place to start. See where your weight goes from there, and adjust as needed. You might have a faster or slower metabolism than typical, and might surprise yourself.

Are you monitoring your body fat percentage at all? Because based on the amount of fat on your frame, it will be difficult for you to visually assess the amount of lean body mass you're adding. Unless you are using a tape measure, or skinfold, or biometric impedence, it will be hard to tell how your weight distribution is coming along.

Honestly, if someone can explain what that the terms 10x BW etc mean, that would be great.

I suppose that this post was a good wake up call. I should probably lift hard, and not try and "bulk" considering my fat levels.

I do want to look good, so why not just try and be healthy, lose some fat and see how I look. that way I can always add bulk on later on and not look fatter and fatter.

so i will drop 500 cals at this point in order to "cut"... which honestly shouldnt be hard.

So what should my caloric goal be? honestly. this is what i really want to know now. in order to cut without losing muscle... but i will read the stickies and follow them of course.

Honestly, if someone can explain what that the terms 10x BW etc mean, that would be great.
It you take your body weight and multiply it by 16, that's how many calories I recommend that you try. Or, as in the stickies, take your BMR, multiply by your activity factor to get your TDEE, and eat that much. Those would be neither bulking nor cutting numbers, which seems to be what you're after; a nice balance in the middle so that you can lose fat and gain lean body mass at the same time.

I would do something like this:

Training Days
Protein: 270
Carbs: 250
Fats: 40
Calories: 2440

Off Days:
Protein: 270
Carbs: 200
Fats: 50
Calories: 2330

Try and meet those numbers everyday for 2 weeks. Take measurements as well as weight and bodyfat. If you are losing fat, continue with these numbers. When you go 2 weeks in a row without any progress; drop the carbs on off days by 10-15g. Repeat this for a few months.

Read the stickys for more information about timings of macronutrients.

As for weight lifting, you want to try and continue to add weight to the bar, even when on a slight caloric deficit. I would also change things a bit:

Workout 1: Push
BB/DB Bench 3x6-10
Dips: 3x10-12 (add weight when you can do 3x12)
BB/DB Overhead Press: 3x6-10
BB Close Grip Bench 3x6-10

Workout 2: Legs
BB Squat: 3x6-10
BB/DB RDL: 3x12-15
Leg Press: 3x10-15
Calf Press: 2x10-15

Workout 3: Pull
BB/DB Row: 3x6-10
Pullups 3x10-12 (use Lat Pulldown or just do as many as you can if its hard)
Close Grip Chins: 3x10-12 (do as many as you can if its hard)
BB/DB Curl: 2x10-12

Something like that for a lifting routine. Try and add weight/reps each time, even if its 2.5lbs or 1 rep on one of the sets. I was using that split on my cut and it worked very well for me. :)

Of course, this is just my opinion. Do some reading of your own and formulate your own ideas. As for how many calories you should eat, start high and work your way down. And make sure they calories come from CLEAN, WHOLESOME FOODS. Read the stickys for ideas on food choices.

Good luck. :)

**real important to me. would you recommend creating while attempting fat loss?**

thanks. i just emailed myself both fat loss guides on this introductions forum, so i can read them when i am offline on my ipod.

for now (as in for today) i will do my workout as per usual, but will try and keep your caloric goals you recommended. those look like easy to hit as well.

i tried dieting in the past but i do low carb, and lose weight FAR too fast. i dont want that as i know that means muscle loss.

update:

looked at the scale, looks like i lost 3 lbs in the past 8 days. hrm.

**real important to me. would you recommend creating while attempting fat loss?**

thanks. i just emailed myself both fat loss guides on this introductions forum, so i can read them when i am offline on my ipod.

for now (as in for today) i will do my workout as per usual, but will try and keep your caloric goals you recommended. those look like easy to hit as well.

i tried dieting in the past but i do low carb, and lose weight FAR too fast. i dont want that as i know that means muscle loss.
Don't understand the bit in bold.

Just make sure you are eating clean, quality food sources. For example you seem to be eating a lot of subways and bread.

Here is the list from the sticky:

Protein
• Chicken
• Turkey
• Lean Red Meat
• Cottage Cheese
• Salmon
• Tuna
• Other Fish
• Eggs
• Egg Whites

Complex Carbs
• Brown Rice
• Wholegrain Pasta
• Yams/Sweet Potato
• Oats

Fibrous Carbs
• Broccoli
• Sprouts
• Green Beans
• Cauliflower

Saturated Fats
• Red Meat

Unsaturated Fats
• Olive Oil
• Nuts
• Natural Peanut Butter

**real important to me. would you recommend creating while attempting fat loss?**

Do you mean creatine?

If so, I use it. I don't see why this is even a question these days. Yes, it makes some retain water, but that doesn't mean fat. So if you hyperventilate if the scale is slightly higher, maybe not, but if you respond to creatine and it helps you in your workouts, it seems a prime time to use it on a deficit.

i tried dieting in the past but i do low carb, and lose weight FAR too fast. i dont want that as i know that means muscle loss.If you aren't working out with weights and your body has no reason to maintain lean mass, it will use some, but if you lift and periodically replenish glycogen via carb loads, low carb can work for some very well.

If you do go low carb, I recommend making sure you get enough total calories, and that generally means upping fats. Low carb+low fat=disaster

Steven
Remember next time to stack your charts rather than expanding sideways, so the reader doesn't have to scroll to the sides in order to read everything.

Yes, I think you should cut. While creatine is one of the few supplements I think is good, I think it is best used in bulking. There is nothing wrong with women going as low as 1000 calories and men as low as 1200. Low calories shouldn't be for long. Losing 2 lbs a week will take off all you need in about 6 weeks. If you start increasing weights you use, you shouldn't worry about muscle loss. You should even add a few lbs.

:gl:

I second Guava and Mannishboy's advice. You could eat at maintenance and see some great results. You'll lose fat and gain a bit of muscle. It won't be as fast as a lower calorie approach to fat loss but your lean body mass will thank you later. I would think recomposition (maintenance) for you is probably around 2700, if you do all the working out.

Steven, this is just my opinion. I would not bulk if I were you. Starting a bulk at too high of a %f will usually end up with you getting fatter. You don't have a bad muscle base and you may benefit from newbie gains, even though you've been fit in the past. I would cut with a slightly lower-than-maintenance calorie level and get serious in the gym with your lifting. You need some more definition and muscle mass and a lower body weight and lower %bf should go a long way with getting you there. Best wishes with whatever path you choose.

damn, there is so much inspiration going on here.
today i have to do cardio, but i am actually LOOKING FORWARD TO IT.

damn, i love this place (inches ever closer to donating)... thanks so much guys.

And yeh, i mean creatine, creatine while cutting.

So what should my caloric goal be? honestly. this is what i really want to know now. in order to cut without losing muscle... but i will read the stickies and follow them of course.

Hey there. I would take a best guess here (I meaning you ;-) and stick with it for a couple weeks. See what your weight does and modify. I'd be cutting at your BF too. Lean out a bit, then put some mass on cleanly when you are already trim.

You could be hear forever trying to figure out if its 2200/2500/2700 etc. I say just pick one and get on with it. Modify over time and then you'll have a much better feel for what you need to affect change.

Pete

First try to get enough protein (1gm/lb). Find which sources you can get your protein from. Go and buy those for each of your meals.

Have most of your carbs around your workout .You might have to experiment and see if you need a lot of carbs or your good with low carbs.

Have some good fat too with your meals, like olive oil, nuts.

Try to eat a lot of vegetables with your meals. Have a fryiit everyday

Do weight training and cardio.

Try it 8 weeks.

You dont have to count each and every shit exactly to the decimal place or have different calories for ur training days and non training dats. Forghet abt all the bulking and cutting shit. Those are just details. Too much for a beginner.

Do the major things right.Then gradually, if you think it's fun, do more.

You dont have to count each and every shit exactly to the decimal place or have different calories for ur training days and non training dats. .

I agree, getting to anal about things can be a detriment to one's success in many cases.

P

I agree, getting to anal about things can be a detriment to one's success in many cases.

P

Well, it also depends on the individual's personality - you will find that the majority of people here at JSF who sucessfully recomped their bodies did so while carefully tracking food intake. For some folks, it is a tremendous motivator when to hit those daily numbers, while for others it is too much control forced onto their habits, or is onerous to track.

I would suggest recording your daily food intake through a site like FitDay first, and learn your diet habits through tracking. Once you have a "stable of good foods" to eat, you can ease off on the tracking, because you already know you are eating well.

It doesn't matter what your occupation is, or what a trainer at the gym thinks is the right amount to eat, etc, etc.

Here is the bottom line. If you want to speed up weight gain (or slow down weight loss) you should increase calories above what it is now. If you want to slow down weight gain (or speed up weight loss) you should decrease calories below what it is now.

Well, it also depends on the individual's personality - you will find that the majority of people here at JSF who sucessfully recomped their bodies did so while carefully tracking food intake. For some folks, it is a tremendous motivator when to hit those daily numbers, while for others it is too much control forced onto their habits, or is onerous to track.


Don't disagree. Was mostly playing a poor pun on the individual counting bowl movements.

That said, it wasn't all facetious. I myself "recomped" somewhat significantly, but only did so once I quit worrying about 3200 Cals 40/30/30 ratios etc, and instead tried to get 40+g of protein 6 times a
day and eat lots of clean food at the same time.

Of course, I had a pretty good idea what the right amount of food was as I have spent time on very strict diets in the past, so I had a leg up.

I definitely agree that anyone looking to revamp themselves needs to spend some time upfront fully understanding what they eat at a macro nutrient level, and trying to track things very specifically for at least a few weeks such that you know what a good day is, and what isn't. Whether or not you keep up with that focus is personal I'm sure, and likely most would benefit from it.

Pete