Ever since I started doing cardio 6 days a week, along with my normal workout....I've had trouble sleeping properly.

Now, when I take ZMA, I usually sleep 'better'...but not AS good as I usually did.

I don't do much cardio...usually around 20-25 min on weight days, and 30-40min on off days.

I do get my heartrate up above 165bpm....or at least try, and I'm thinking that is too much.

I switch up between the elliptical, bike, and squat/deadlift variations - light weight/high reps/30 rest/repeat. Usually with the elliptical, my heart rate is around 150bpm, the bike it sits 165-175bpm, and with he squats/deadlifts its above 180bpm.

Would that be my problem?

I can't stand LISS....takes too damn long, plus it uses up time that I don't have.

I can't stand LISS either unless its a relaxing walk in the country. Have you tried doing your HIIT after your strength training sessions? That way you can have 2-3days of complete rest.

I don't think i read your post correctly. 45-60min of HIIT per week should be plenty, so 15-20min of 3 sessions per week.

Intensity and/or diet would be my questions.

My cardio is usually after I do my weights.

I don't want to be 'less' intense....cardio to me is boring if I'm not pushing myself to the limits. Which means I LOVE to raise my HR as high as possible.

When are you doing your cardio? A lot of people have problems sleeping if their systems are amped up by exercise in the evenings. If you are doing you weights and cardio in the evenings, you might want to move them to morning/afternoon.

My cardio is usually after I do my weights.

I don't want to be 'less' intense....cardio to me is boring if I'm not pushing myself to the limits. Which means I LOVE to raise my HR as high as possible.

I certainty wouldn't suggest you should reduce your intensity.

Maybe you need more grub or 2 days of rest. :)

Cardio is from 1-2 in the afternoon, usually.

I hardly ever exercise in the evenings, maybe once a month, if that....when I have work to do and miss a workout.

I might cut back to 5 days per week working out.

What would be better? Rest on Saturday/Sunday, or rest Tuesday/Sunday? Or Thursday/Sunday?

I don't do much cardio...usually around 20-25 min on weight days, and 30-40min on off days.

I would argue that that is quite a bit of cardio, especially given the fact that you do it at quite a high intensity (though perhaps not by Zen's standards). Your sleeping problems may indicate that you're not recovering properly. Disrupted sleep is often a sign of overtraining. Your cardiovascular fitness may simply not be up to the volume and intensity and being in a caloric deficit (assuming you are) won't help matters.

I would cut back on cardio by doing 15-20 mins of LISS (and make sure it's LISS) after your weight training and two days of higher intensity steady state cardio (like you've been doing) on two other days of the week (which ones will depend on your schedule and your overall training program). See if that helps.

I 'could' do the LISS if I had too. Just set the elliptical on low/moderate and go for 20 min. I'll see.

I never worked out yesterday, and I did sleep better. But it took me forever to actually fall asleep.

I have no doubt that overtraining is my problem. I'm just looking for a solution that would fix it without taking away my 6 day workout.

I might go with the above. I'll see.

Another quick question....what would HIIT do to my metabolism?

Another quick question....what would HIIT do to my metabolism?

Increase it of course. :lol:

Maybe you should lighten up on the HIIT for a few weeks, and slowly increase back to what you were doing?

More food probably is not a bad idea either.

Increase it of course. :lol:

Maybe you should lighten up on the HIIT for a few weeks, and slowly increase back to what you were doing?

More food probably is not a bad idea either.

Increase it slightly, or increase it a lot?

I do realize that your metabolism is bound to go up, but does it go up to the point where I should probably start eating more calories? Say I burn 200 calories during HIIT, how many more do I burn during the rest of the day because I did HIIT?

\

I do realize that your metabolism is bound to go up, but does it go up to the point where I should probably start eating more calories?

Metabolism is the rate at which your body burns calories. There are some factors that you can change, and some factors that you can't.

*Age - metabolism slows 5% per decade after age 20
*Sex - men generally burn calories faster than women
*Heredity - you can inherit your metabolic rate from previous generations
*Thyroid disorder - problems in the thyroid gland can slow or quicken metabolism but this is rare
*Proportion of lean body mass - metabolism increases with muscle mass.

How does Metabolism increase with cardo? Now you burn more calories by increased activity. But the more muscle you build, the higher your resting metabolic rate (RMR). Every bit of muscle that you gain is like a little factory that burns calories for you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This is the only way to increase RMR.

So you're discounting the fact that HIIT raises your metabolism. Maybe temporarily, especially if you don't keep it up, but it still raises it.

I do not dare argue with Rtestes as he has some of the best advice in here IMO. But, what we were referring to is the afterburn result from doing Interval training, which raises your metabolism.

Just watch your weight and change your diet accordingly if you notice sudden drops in weight. There is no real one result from doing it as everyone is different (plus the factors pointed out above); you have to practice and experiment to find out the right balance of everything.

EDIT: Here is an article on sprinting (http://www.shapefit.com/sprinting.html) versus running.

"While Running is a great activity to aid in fat loss, it has one drawback, it only speeds your up your metabolism while running and for a short period afterwards. If you would like your metabolism to fly at the speed of light 24 hours a day, I have a secret for you. It's called sprinting. Sprinting not only burns HUGE amounts of calories while sprinting, it also keeps your metabolism flying for days after. Sprinting combined with running / jogging can bring amazing results, especially when combined with a clean and healthy diet!"

I'm not arguing, well not with what he said at least. I know that building muscle increases your metabolism, which is why I lift weights.

Sprinting, eh?

I don't really like running, but I might try it out.

I do not dare argue with Rtestes as he has some of the best advice in here IMO. But, what we were referring to is the afterburn result from doing Interval training, which raises your metabolism.

Just watch your weight and change your diet accordingly if you notice sudden drops in weight. There is no real one result from doing it as everyone is different (plus the factors pointed out above); you have to practice and experiment to find out the right balance of everything.

EDIT: Here is an article on sprinting (http://www.shapefit.com/sprinting.html) versus running.

"While Running is a great activity to aid in fat loss, it has one drawback, it only speeds your metabolism while running and for a short period afterwards. I have a secret for you. It's called sprinting. Sprinting not only burns HUGE amounts of calories metabolism to fly at the speed of light 24 hours a day, it also keeps your metabolism flying for days after. Sprinting combined with running / jogging can bring amazing results, especially when combined with a clean and healthy diet!"

There are studies that suggest that calorie burning levels are raised for a period after the exercise, the same can be said for weight lifting. the RMR or BRM is the largest component of calorie burning. When muscle is created by resistance exercise you have a lasting burn that occurs in the repair and functions of the muscle cells which are very active. But running I wouldn't consider as increasing metabolism like cell and organ activity. Even when we add fat, we increase metabolism, by a small amount compared to muscle.

Sprinting, running and walking burn activity calories but does not bring long lasting increases in metabolism as I understand it. You expend far more calories at rest then you do by activities. Look at BMR calculations. The shapefit article with their "speed of light" flying metabolism may have misstated things a bit. The interval method of cardio does burn more calories during the activity phase then LISS.

...I usually sleep 'better'...but not AS good as I usually did.

I don't do much cardio...usually around 20-25 min on weight days, and 30-40min on off days.

Which day is a complete rest day in your program?

I might cut back to 5 days per week working out.

Sounds like a good idea.

I do not dare argue with Rtestes as he has some of the best advice in here IMO. But, what we were referring to is the afterburn result from doing Interval training, which raises your metabolism.

And you are correct.

There are studies that suggest that calorie burning levels are raised for a period after the exercise, the same can be said for weight lifting. the RMR or BRM is the largest component of calorie burning.

Except for active people. I just came from a barbecue where a young man is finishing his forestry degree (in Montana) and going to work in Forestry. He was discussing with my wife (who used to fight wildfires in the Forest Service) what sort of activity they do. And as I would have expected, it's way beyond most programs people here talk about. Fire crews in season burn thousands of activity Calories every day for weeks on end before they get a rest day. So even though their BMR is still about 2000 Calories/day the largest component BY FAR of their activity is the exercise.

You have to exercise seriously to get your activity Calories up past the RMR Calories - these days I am running about 56% RMR and 44% activity, and that's with a good deal of activity. But when you consider that the EPOC ('afterburn') Calories I get each week amount to about one entire day's eating for that week, it's enough that you shouldn't neglect it.

You have to exercise seriously to get your activity Calories up past the RMR Calories - these days I am running about 56% RMR and 44% activity, and that's with a good deal of activity. But when you consider that the EPOC ('afterburn') Calories I get each week amount to about one entire day's eating for that week, it's enough that you shouldn't neglect it.

Are you losing weight, each week with the after burn?

Which day is a complete rest day in your program?

Sunday.

Sounds like a good idea.

I'll start next week.

It'll probably end up being Thursday/Sunday as rest days.

If I rest Thursday, I won't have more than 3 workout days between a rest day, as opposed to resting Tuesday, and going Wed-Sat, which is 4 days.

So the past two weeks, I have learned all about overtraining and ROM. Good stuff. :tu:

Are you losing weight, each week with the after burn?

In my situation, say I burn and average of 300 calories 'more' per week because of the added cardio, which only equals to around 1800 more calories burnt in a 6 day period. Yet, ever since I started doing HIIT, my weight has dropped an average of 1.67 lbs lbs per week, the past 3 weeks.

Thats around a 5500 net calorie deficit per week. So you tell me why my body seems to burning an extra 3700 calories per week. Thats only 616 extra per day than I usually did, and exactly on par of what I WANT to be losing.

Are you losing weight, each week with the after burn?

No, I try and eat enough to avoid losing weight. I did drop a few pounds the past month, and that might continue for a while, but it's not a goal. I want to get the deadlift over #550 and bench over #315 in the next six months and that will not be that easy if I lose weight at this rate. It's OK for me to drop another five pounds but then I might dial back the exercise.

At the moment, the exercise volume is intended to bump up the VO2max and HDL cholesterol level.

In my situation, say I burn and average of 300 calories 'more' per week because of the added cardio, which only equals to around 1800 more calories burnt in a 6 day period. Yet, ever since I started doing HIIT, my weight has dropped an average of 1.67 lbs lbs per week, the past 3 weeks.

Thats around a 5500 net calorie deficit per week. So you tell me why my body seems to burning an extra 3700 calories per week. Thats only 616 extra per day than I usually did, and exactly on par of what I WANT to be losing.

Do you have accurate figures for how much your intake in calories were for the 7 days and what your exercise expenditure was for the days of weights and cardio? That information would be required to even try to guess what your weight loss might be and for what reason. Then it would only be a estimate.

No, I try and eat enough to avoid losing weight. I did drop a few pounds the past month, and that might continue for a while, but it's not a goal. I want to get the deadlift over #550 and bench over #315 in the next six months and that will not be that easy if I lose weight at this rate. It's OK for me to drop another five pounds but then I might dial back the exercise.

At the moment, the exercise volume is intended to bump up the VO2max and HDL cholesterol level.

You suggested I thought that your "after burn" calories was equal to a day of eating. I imagined that that would be 1/7 of your weekly intake, I thought it might be near a pound a week at least. How did you make that measurement of calories after burned?

Do you have accurate figures for how much your intake in calories were for the 7 days and what your exercise expenditure was for the days of weights and cardio? That information would be required to even try to guess what your weight loss might be and for what reason. Then it would only be a estimate.

The actual calorie intake was exactly the same as it was prior to starting HIIT.

Prior to doing HIIT, I had no weight loss. No gain either, yet my body fat was going down, but at a very slow pace. Since starting to do HIIT, my weight has fallen at exactly the pace I wanted it too.

But like I said in my previous point, at a faster rate my calories burnt would indicate. Which shows to me that my metabolism HAS increased as a result of HIIT.

Sprinting, running and walking burn activity calories but does not bring long lasting increases in metabolism as I understand it.

The sprinting here is out of place. Sprinting(i.e. HIIT) is very similar to weight training in it's effect on metabolism and the adaptation required from the body :)

The actual calorie intake was exactly the same as it was prior to starting HIIT.

Prior to doing HIIT, I had no weight loss. No gain either, yet my body fat was going down, but at a very slow pace. Since starting to do HIIT, my weight has fallen at exactly the pace I wanted it too.

But like I said in my previous point, at a faster rate my calories burnt would indicate. Which shows to me that my metabolism HAS increased as a result of HIIT.

Could be, we all differ on how we response. :gl:

You suggested I thought that your "after burn" calories was equal to a day of eating. I imagined that that would be 1/7 of your weekly intake, I thought it might be near a pound a week at least. How did you make that measurement of calories after burned?

Actually in the past four weeks, since I increased the exercise Calories back up to the higher level, I have dropped four pounds. This is essentially the way I did cut from 233# down to 180# back when I was shedding fat. It worked out more to about 3.5# per month - less than a pound a week. But since my body composition is now leaner than it was then, I won't lose fat as fast as I did then, and, I'm not interested in getting leaner now, although that might happen a little. I don't like jacking my diet up to compensate - I seem to be one of those people that really likes the same amount of food intake for long periods of time. But I'm probably OK with a few months of this before I face a decision to up nutrition or lower exercise.

As I have described here at JSF many times, you can measure the afterburn Calories most conveniently by using the heart rate monitor not just when you are exercising. Ideally, you wear it for an entire day (sleep and all) and that gets you a baseline. You should use a day that isn't just after a big workout or hard physical activity either, you want a day that doesn't have effects of exercise in it. Having done that, you now have an idea of how many Calories you burn during your normal day without exercise. Now, you wear the heart rate monitor during exercise, and also for a few hours after. You will see the elevation of the heart rate during exercise, but also after. Now you can take the Calories burned during and after the exercise and subtract the Calories burned during the same period on the normal day. This is the amount of Calories burned because you exercised; which includes both the Calories burned while exercise and the Calories burned afterwards due to the exercise.

I have included a heart rate graph which includes a short amount taken from when I was lying down and resting quietly, and a bit more of heart rate at a relatively sedentary barbecue, and a the same time from a recent workout which included some significant exercise.

You can see that the lying down has a heart rate around 60bpm. 35 Calories were burned in that 18 minute stretch; which comes to just under 117 Calories per hour (which is sort of like 2800 Calories per day BMR).

The hanging out at the barbecue heart rate averaged 86 bpm, and burned Calories at just over 117 Calories per hour. (Not surprising - sitting around conversing doesn't burn much more than lying down).

Now the workout graph is the one that ranges up to about 170bpm, and you can see some deadlift sets clearly as well as some elliptical. There are other exercises in there but on this scale it's not as clear. The rate of Calories burned averaged to 783 Calories per hour.

I don't have a graph that easily demonstrates this in the current program but if you wear the heart rate monitor for a long time after the workout then eventually the heart rate will approach the normal heart rate if would be without the exercise. And at that point, you will be burning Calories at just about the same rate as if you hadn't done any exercise. I used to do these a lot but that was with the previous heart rate monitor which has different software. I would have to reinstall it to make a picture of such a graph at the moment.

So now the afterburn is clear in the heart rate graphs - you look at when the exercise ended and see the heart rate graph return to the normal level. If you do low intensity exercise, this might only take a few minutes. If you do something really intense, then it can take hours. Figuring out how many Calories were in the afterburn is simply taking the difference of all the Calories burned from the end of exercise to some point where the heart rate is no longer elevated, and all the Calories that would be burned during that time without exercise (and this is typically just a constant rate - such as for me it's pretty clear that subtracting 117 Calories per hour does fine). Note that you don't have to be super careful about what the recovery heart rate is, or exactly when you achieve that, since once the heart rate is low enough, the Calories you burn are going to be at a rate very close to whatever that baseline rate would be, so the difference will not amount to much.

There is one other subtle point. I have given a simple way to figure out the Calories burned during recovery.

This is not the same as figuring out when recovery is really over - when you are "fully" recovered. This is because most of the Calories burned in recovery get burned within a few hours at the most. But your body keeps doing things for recovery for a long time after that; they just happen to be things your body can do pretty efficiently that don't burn a lot of Calories. So although you are done burning recovery Calories more or less as soon as the heart rate has returned to it's normal level, that doesn't mean your body is ready to go again. A lot of the really important stuff from exercise (like hypertrophy) happen later, when you go to sleep.

Actually in the past four weeks, since I increased the exercise Calories back up to the higher level, I have dropped four pounds. This is essentially the way I did cut from 233# down to 180# back when I was shedding fat. It worked out more to about 3.5# per month - less than a pound a week. But since my body composition is now leaner than it was then, I won't lose fat as fast as I did then, and, I'm not interested in getting leaner now, although that might happen a little. I don't like jacking my diet up to compensate - I seem to be one of those people that really likes the same amount of food intake for long periods of time. But I'm probably OK with a few months of this before I face a decision to up nutrition or lower exercise.

As I have described here at JSF many times, you can measure the afterburn Calories most conveniently by using the heart rate monitor not just when you are exercising. Ideally, you wear it for an entire day (sleep and all) and that gets you a baseline. You should use a day that isn't just after a big workout or hard physical activity either, you want a day that doesn't have effects of exercise in it. Having done that, you now have an idea of how many Calories you burn during your normal day without exercise. Now, you wear the heart rate monitor during exercise, and also for a few hours after. You will see the elevation of the heart rate during exercise, but also after. Now you can take the Calories burned during and after the exercise and subtract the Calories burned during the same period on the normal day. This is the amount of Calories burned because you exercised; which includes both the Calories burned while exercise and the Calories burned afterwards due to the exercise.

I have included a heart rate graph which includes a short amount taken from when I was lying down and resting quietly, and a bit more of heart rate at a relatively sedentary barbecue, and a the same time from a recent workout which included some significant exercise.

You can see that the lying down has a heart rate around 60bpm. 35 Calories were burned in that 18 minute stretch; which comes to just under 117 Calories per hour (which is sort of like 2800 Calories per day BMR).

The hanging out at the barbecue heart rate averaged 86 bpm, and burned Calories at just over 117 Calories per hour. (Not surprising - sitting around conversing doesn't burn much more than lying down).

Now the workout graph is the one that ranges up to about 170bpm, and you can see some deadlift sets clearly as well as some elliptical. There are other exercises in there but on this scale it's not as clear. The rate of Calories burned averaged to 783 Calories per hour.

I don't have a graph that easily demonstrates this in the current program but if you wear the heart rate monitor for a long time after the workout then eventually the heart rate will approach the normal heart rate if would be without the exercise. And at that point, you will be burning Calories at just about the same rate as if you hadn't done any exercise. I used to do these a lot but that was with the previous heart rate monitor which has different software. I would have to reinstall it to make a picture of such a graph at the moment.

So now the afterburn is clear in the heart rate graphs - you look at when the exercise ended and see the heart rate graph return to the normal level. If you do low intensity exercise, this might only take a few minutes. If you do something really intense, then it can take hours. Figuring out how many Calories were in the afterburn is simply taking the difference of all the Calories burned from the end of exercise to some point where the heart rate is no longer elevated, and all the Calories that would be burned during that time without exercise (and this is typically just a constant rate - such as for me it's pretty clear that subtracting 117 Calories per hour does fine). Note that you don't have to be super careful about what the recovery heart rate is, or exactly when you achieve that, since once the heart rate is low enough, the Calories you burn are going to be at a rate very close to whatever that baseline rate would be, so the difference will not amount to much.

There is one other subtle point. I have given a simple way to figure out the Calories burned during recovery.

This is not the same as figuring out when recovery is really over - when you are "fully" recovered. This is because most of the Calories burned in recovery get burned within a few hours at the most. But your body keeps doing things for recovery for a long time after that; they just happen to be things your body can do pretty efficiently that don't burn a lot of Calories. So although you are done burning recovery Calories more or less as soon as the heart rate has returned to it's normal level, that doesn't mean your body is ready to go again. A lot of the really important stuff from exercise (like hypertrophy) happen later, when you go to sleep.

Cool. You got all of that from your heart rate monitor!? Mine just gives me the current number and an average before it shuts off. . .lol

Cool. You got all of that from your heart rate monitor!? Mine just gives me the current number and an average before it shuts off. . .lol

What kind do you have?

I believe Zen has a Polar F11, but I'm not sure.