Is there a formula or conversion you can use to convert the weight used on a 45 degree leg press compared to a standing back squat?

No. The leg press takes out half of your body. Even if you make a judgment of the leg strength, it is meaningless unless the rest of the body can bear the load. The mechanics of the two movements are also distinctly different. In the squat, you have coordinated knee and hip extension restricted by the need to remain balanced. In the leg press, the movement at the two joints has no such requirement.

If you want to make a comparison, you can multiply the weight you use by sin 45° to get an approximation of the corresponding weight ceteris paribus on a vertical leg press. In other words, on a leg press where you lay flat on your back and press the weight directly upwards.

Agreed. They are two different animals...

That would be like trying to determine the mechanical advantage you have when doing incline bench press versus military press...The involvement (or exclusion) of muscle groups makes the calculation fruitless...

No. The leg press takes out half of your body. Even if you make a judgment of the leg strength, it is meaningless unless the rest of the body can bear the load. The mechanics of the two movements are also distinctly different. In the squat, you have coordinated knee and hip extension restricted by the need to remain balanced. In the leg press, the movement at the two joints has no such requirement.

If you want to make a comparison you can multiply the weight you use by (sin 45°) to get an approximation of the equivalent weight on a vertical leg press (e.g. one where you lay flat on your back and press directly upwards).

430 x sin(45)=365? Would that be right? And for the record, I'm not trying to extrapolate how much I can squat. I already know that I can squat 365lbs at least. And by at least, I mean possible a few pounds more.

430 x sin(45)=365? Would that be right? And for the record, I'm not trying to extrapolate how much I can squat. I already know that I can squat 365lbs at least. And by at least, I mean possible a few pounds more.
That sounds right.

With which one could you press more?

I've heard people claim they can leg press 1000 lbs. Is that correct? One of my friends when I still lived in the Washington wanted to leg press 2,000lbs before he left for SEAL training. I have no idea if he accomplished it.

With which one could you press more?

I've heard people claim they can leg press 1000 lbs. Is that correct? One of my friends when I still lived in the Washington wanted to leg press 2,000lbs before he left for SEAL training. I have no idea if he accomplished it.

99 percent of people can leg press a ton more than they can back squat.

Yeah. I can squat 225x10. Last time I did leg press I did 720x10. It's cool to see all that weight on there, but sweet mercy is it tiresome to load and unload the weights. The leg press machines with pins are much nicer, but none of the ones in my gym go higher than 500 lbs.

Something to watch out for is your ROM. If you're not going knees-to-chest you can put up significantly more weight, like double or more. Doesn't really count but it sure looks good!

Anyways, I'm a weightlifting snob, so I generally just stick to squatting. :p

With which one could you press more?

I've heard people claim they can leg press 1000 lbs. Is that correct?

Sure. I have done that for reps. It's not that big a deal. I don't know my 1RM squat, but I have squatted 420#. Squatting 420# is way way more difficult that leg pressing 1000#.

Something to watch out for is your ROM. If you're not going knees-to-chest you can put up significantly more weight, like double or more. Doesn't really count but it sure looks good!

1. Knees to chest is probably too much ROM for leg press to be safe - same deal as squat depth. Plus, since your knee is artificially tracked in a leg press, it's probably worse. So you will not see me going past parallel in leg press.

2. Dunno if it "counts" but leg press is as effective as it's going to be without the full ROM. Full ROM is usually wrong for any exercise intended to increase strength, and this is no exception. Muscles increase in strength in response to an exercise over a range of motion which is larger than the range of motion of the exercise, usually by about 15 degrees more flexion and extension. So there is not a lot of good reason to use full ROM in an exercise if you want to increase strength; in fact, reducing ROM and increasing load makes more sense.

Full ROM is usually wrong for any exercise intended to increase strength, and this is no exception.

Hm, that's definitely counter to common wisdom, which is that increasing weight at the expense of ROM is bad (it's cheating). I'm familiar with the arguments about squat depth. But you're saying reduced ROM might actually be okay for any exercise, even when injury isn't a concern?

I ask because I can't/won't do full ROM for the bench press. I've had shoulder pains in the past so I prefer to only go about 2/3 of the way down. Obviously I can do more weight with reduced ROM than if I touched the bar to my chest. I've always felt a little guilty about doing more weight than I "should" be doing, though.

Hm, that's definitely counter to common wisdom, which is that increasing weight at the expense of ROM is bad (it's cheating). I'm familiar with the arguments about squat depth. But you're saying reduced ROM might actually be okay for any exercise, even when injury isn't a concern?
You have to take into how that common wisdom is often passed along without regard to its original context. For the squat, beyond silly notions that end in the words "because it's not hardcore," the reason limiting depth is usually thought of as "cheating" is that, in a powerlifting competition, you have a specific depth to which you must descend. The majority of lifters do not lift competitively, yet they derive most of their knowledge about the lifts they use from videos of lifters in competition or in articles that teach form from a competitive standpoint. Their knowledge and, therefore, their training reflect this bias. Many powerlifters and other competitive lifters make a distinction between training and competition lifts -- depth, maxes, etc. For recreational lifters, these are often thought of as synonymous, but, for the lifter who also competes, they are not usually synonymous (and, for good reason, as zen has pointed out).

Hm, that's definitely counter to common wisdom, which is that increasing weight at the expense of ROM is bad (it's cheating). I'm familiar with the arguments about squat depth. But you're saying reduced ROM might actually be okay for any exercise, even when injury isn't a concern?

I ask because I can't/won't do full ROM for the bench press. I've had shoulder pains in the past so I prefer to only go about 2/3 of the way down. Obviously I can do more weight with reduced ROM than if I touched the bar to my chest. I've always felt a little guilty about doing more weight than I "should" be doing, though.

Yeah I'm pretty much saying that maximum ROM is usually wrong for strength. Especially for the bench press, where you should keep your elbows from going below your body. Any time you have the shoulder under heavy load, this is a good idea, which means for your rowing too.

Anyone wants to tell you the full ROM bench press is always necessary? Maybe they should check with Louie Simmons at Westside about what those boards are for. And floor presses are normally respected, (oddly enough even by people that like to talk about "strict" bench presses).

Now if you compete and have to make a required ROM then you have to do that, but you probably want to avoid training the full ROM all the time.

It's very common for someone who can't do a lift any more to be someone with a joint problem. It's pretty uncommon for it to be a muscle problem. What does that tell you? It tells you that in the long run, lifting can be tough on joints. It's worth thinking about if this is necessary. From where I've gotten to in thinking about this question, I'm pretty sure maximizing ROM is usually a bad idea.

Ah! "For strength" is the key. That makes sense. I'm happy, then; I don't care about hypertrophy, just strength. I'll be glad to continue doing less-than-full ROM and not risk shoulder problems.

Many powerlifters and other competitive lifters make a distinction between training and competition lifts -- depth, maxes, etc. For recreational lifters, these are often thought of as synonymous, but, for the lifter who also competes, they are not usually synonymous (and, for good reason, as zen has pointed out).


For hypertrophy, it is often an advantage to use the whole ROM (though, as a counterpoint, look at the ROM in videos of professional bodybuilders), but, if strength is the goal, reduced ROMs also have a lot of benefit for the reason zen stated.

That's a very important point about training vs. competition lifts which should be more widely understood.

As to hypertrophy? I hypertrophy is more complicated than strength; there seem to be lots of ways to do it that are somewhat at odds with each other.

Ah! "For strength" is the key. That makes sense. I'm happy, then; I don't care about hypertrophy, just strength. I'll be glad to continue doing less-than-full ROM and not risk shoulder problems.

Hey even if you care about only hypertrophy; staying away from debilitating joint conditions means that you can keep training. Full ROM doesn't do you any good if you can't do the lift because of injury.

As to hypertrophy? I hypertrophy is more complicated than strength; there seem to be lots of ways to do it that are somewhat at odds with each other.
Yeah. You caught that before the edit. I removed that part. :lol:

You're telling me that I shouldn't lower my elbows below my body when I bench press?

How do you get the bar down to your chest then?

You're telling me that I shouldn't lower my elbows below my body when I bench press?

How do you get the bar down to your chest then?

You should consider not lowering your elbows below your body for most lifts when you train the bench press.

Getting the bar to your chest is exactly the thing you want to avoid if your chest isn't big enough to stop the bar before your elbows get behind you. How is this guy going to get the bar to his chest?

http://asp.elitefts.com/images/upload/qa/3%20Board%20Press.jpg

Now read what those guys say about it:

3 Board Press

Category: Max Effort and Supplemental

Muscles Targeted: Triceps, Chest and Delts

We love all aspects of Lumber Liftin. The 3 Board Press is one of the front runners for all time best max effort movements for the development of the bench press. For most the 3 board press will position the bottom of the lift (when the bar hits the boards) just out of the pec region of the bench press. This in turn will place most of the work onto the triceps and off of the chest. This makes the 3 board press a great triceps and lockout builder.

The 3 Board Press is also a great way to control the range of motion if you are dealing with shoulder and pec injuries.

While this movement is generally thought of as a max effort movement that will be trained with heavy singles and triples using the Max Effort Method. It is also a great triceps builder. Use a close grip and work up to a few heavy sets of 5 and watch you triceps take off.

I have personally seen this one movement add over 100 pounds to many lifters bench press. These lifters were all very strong off the chest but weak at the top end. This top end was holding their bench press back. After adding in three board presses for reps they increased their top end strength to match the bottom and strength and the net results was a hundred pound personal record. (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=37555&tid=102)

You don't always need to get the bar to your chest. You often shouldn't. Unless you are a competitive bench presser, I would suggest that you never bother getting the bar down to your chest and rather work on increasing your chest so the bar can touch it before your elbows get behind you. That way, everyone is happy.

You do realize that never lowering the bar to my chest automatically adds about 50-100lbs to my bench press?

The lower my elbows go, the less weight I can lift.

You do realize that never lowering the bar to my chest automatically adds about 50-100lbs to my bench press?

The lower my elbows go, the less weight I can lift.

And partial squats do the same thing to them. :cool:

You're telling me that I shouldn't lower my elbows below my body when I bench press?

How do you get the bar down to your chest then?

I don't think it is a given that you shouldn't touch the bar to your chest. You can also minimize shoulder difficulties by tucking your elbows (thereby reducing torque on the shoulder joint). If you've got shoulder problems, then you might consider reducing your ROM slightly. For working sets, I usually pause the bar about 1 inch above the chest, and then press. I do this for 2 reasons: 1) to reduce risk of injury to my left shoulder, and 2) reduce the risk of pec tears.

I have had no reduction in full ROM strength either -- I tested my 1 RM off the chest last October with a slightly wider than normal grip, and I benched pretty much what I would have done with a 1 inch pause.

Edit: Here is an article that explains how to find your optimal ROM in order to reduce chances of injury to the shoulder.

http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=26

You don't always need to get the bar to your chest. You often shouldn't. Unless you are a competitive bench presser, I would suggest that you never bother getting the bar down to your chest and rather work on increasing your chest so the bar can touch it before your elbows get behind you. That way, everyone is happy.
I think you are misinterpreting the board press a little. The very article you quoted says that the board presses are intended to place the work on the triceps and off the chest. Since you're not going all the way down, what exercise do you use to work the chest? If you're not going to use the bench press to work the chest, why would you use the board version to work the triceps?

If you want to avoid shoulder injuries while doing bench presses, don't do heavy singles. Higher rep ranges with lower weights is safer. As JoeSchmo said, adjust your elbows. Also, develop a complete shoulder by using bench press and overhead press in a 1:1 ratio. Too many guys do all benching and no overhead pressing and develop imbalances.

Back to the original topic. Yes, you multiply the weight on the sled by Sin 45 (0.707). The other thing to consider is that with a squat, you are also lifting a large percentage of your body weight. You don't have to do that with the leg press.

I don't think it is a given that you shouldn't touch the bar to your chest. You can also minimize shoulder difficulties by tucking your elbows (thereby reducing torque on the shoulder joint). If you've got shoulder problems, then you might consider reducing your ROM slightly. For working sets, I usually pause the bar about 1 inch above the chest, and then press. I do this for 2 reasons: 1) to reduce risk of injury to my left shoulder, and 2) reduce the risk of pec tears.

I have had no reduction in full ROM strength either -- I tested my 1 RM off the chest last October with a slightly wider than normal grip, and I benched pretty much what I would have done with a 1 inch pause.

Edit: Here is an article that explains how to find your optimal ROM in order to reduce chances of injury to the shoulder.

http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=26

Interesting.

All I know is that I can bench a lot more if I don't lower the bar all the way down to my chest.

I don't have shoulder problems, yet....but why risk it? I'll look into finding this optimal ROM.

You do realize that never lowering the bar to my chest automatically adds about 50-100lbs to my bench press?

That's why you train the partial presses with significantly increased weight.

The competition lift - where you pause the bar on your chest, and then lift on a signal - is not a good training lift. Yes, you have to train it so you know how to do it, but you want most of your training volume to spare your shoulders. You want to save that full ROM press for the minority of lifts in training which need it and for competition.

The shoulder is a complicated joint, and one of the issues is that you need to keep the humerus (upper arm bone) in the shallow socket provided by the "glenoid process of the scapula". The ball on the end of the humerus sits on the glenoid like a golf ball on a tee - it's not going to stay there unless something holds it on. The shoulder is made this way so that it can be very mobile, and so there are ligaments and muscles that hold it together, but it's lots of little ones as opposed to one or two big ones. So it's like the golf ball is stuck to the tee with rubber bands.

But this golf ball has a crowbar stuck to it (the rest of the humerus bone). Yes, it's pretty easy to get a golf ball off a tee if you use a crowbar - even if you have big bad resistance bands.

When you train the bench press, the load goes up. It's not unusual to get a bench press well over 200# so there is over 100# pressing down on the lever of the humerus.

OK so go get one of those short wrecking bars:

http://img2.timeinc.net/toh/i/a/tools/nail-pullers-04.jpg

and strap a golf ball down to something like a board. Now see if you can pull the ball off the board using the lever of the wrecking bar. That will give you an idea of what the situation is. Because of the ratio of the length of the humerus bone to the length of the ball end of the humerus, the mechanical advantage is huge.

And what is holding the shoulder together is a bunch of ligaments and "rotator cuff" muscles shoulder "capsule".

The shoulder capsule can accomodate some motion of the ball and socket; otherwise you couldn't use your shoulder for much. But because of the leverage, it doesn't accomodate a whole lot of motion. When you have a big force on the end of the humerus? It's a good idea to respect that shoulder capsule.

Baseball pitching coaches for years worked on increasing the range of motion that the shoulder accomodates by stretching, and lot of it. This has the effect of increasing the range of motion, but it also means that the strength of the tissues holding the shoulder together was weakened, and the increased range of motion decreased the ability of the muscles and ligaments to work together. This lead to increased injury rates, and it is why baseball pitching coaches now avoid increasing the range of motion of the shoulder.

So this undercuts the idea that somehow by training the bench press with full ROM in some "correct form", that you can avoid the shoulder problems. No, it's not only form that is the problem, maximizing the ROM is the problem. The more times you do it? The weaker your shoulder gets.

I think you are misinterpreting the board press a little. The very article you quoted says that the board presses are intended to place the work on the triceps and off the chest. Since you're not going all the way down, what exercise do you use to work the chest?

Back to the original topic. Yes, you multiply the weight on the sled by Sin 45 (0.707). The other thing to consider is that with a squat, you are also lifting a large percentage of your body weight. You don't have to do that with the leg press.

A: Actually there are tons of exercises you can do for the chest if the chest is your weak point in the bench press, but usually it isn't.

B: As we have discussed many times, leg sleds are not all 45 degrees. Many of them are 40 degrees, and for those, the conversion to vertical is 0.6428. Some leg press machines do not have an obvious conversion to vertical, such as my favorite cardio machine:

9bKP6UJy8Ao

I don't think it is a given that you shouldn't touch the bar to your chest.

Right - it depends on how big your chest is. If you have a big chest, you get the "benefit" of restricting the range of motion naturally.

The thing to watch out for is where your elbows go - tucked in or not. It's worse if you don't tuck them in, but your elbows should not go much behind your body tucked in as well.

All I know is that I can bench a lot more if I don't lower the bar all the way down to my chest.

I don't have shoulder problems, yet....but why risk it? I'll look into finding this optimal ROM.

How much load is on the bar is not really the important point. That's for bragging rights or comedy videos on youtube.

What matters when you are training for strength is how strong you are. (Wow, what a revelation....)

You will get stronger training the lower ROM press with the heavier weights than the higher ROM press with lighter weights. How much ROM is enough to get stronger throughout the whole ROM? take about 15 degrees of flexion/extension off the angles you have at the endpoints of your motion. That is the ROM you need to cover in your exercise.

A lot of people have thought about this, and where the shoulder really starts to get impacted is when you get the elbows behind the body under load. In other words, the bottom of your floor press is a good reference for where in the bench press you are starting to tear up your shoulder.

Edit: Here is an article that explains how to find your optimal ROM in order to reduce chances of injury to the shoulder.

http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=26

That's a really good article. Pretty much everything I'm trying to say is in there.

How much load is on the bar is not really the important point. That's for bragging rights or comedy videos on youtube.

What matters when you are training for strength is how strong you are. (Wow, what a revelation....)

You will get stronger training the lower ROM press with the heavier weights than the higher ROM press with lighter weights. How much ROM is enough to get stronger throughout the whole ROM? take about 15 degrees of flexion/extension off the angles you have at the endpoints of your motion. That is the ROM you need to cover in your exercise.

A lot of people have thought about this, and where the shoulder really starts to get impacted is when you get the elbows behind the body under load. In other words, the bottom of your floor press is a good reference for where in the bench press you are starting to tear up your shoulder.

Well screw me sideways, but I had no idea. Guess you learn something new everyday.

I'm going to change it up for sure.

I have a big chest....as in bigger than the average person, but my elbows are always going lower than my body.

Edit: Here is an article that explains how to find your optimal ROM in order to reduce chances of injury to the shoulder.

http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=26

Awesome, thanks for posting that.

I'm going to change up on Monday.

Full ROM is usually wrong for any exercise intended to increase strength, and this is no exception. Muscles increase in strength in response to an exercise over a range of motion which is larger than the range of motion of the exercise, usually by about 15 degrees more flexion and extension. So there is not a lot of good reason to use full ROM in an exercise if you want to increase strength; in fact, reducing ROM and increasing load makes more sense.

This is probably the most significant thread I've read here. I'd like to probe further so I'm pulling this out of context based on "any" in the first sentence. Certainly my right shoulder has suffered greatly due to too much range of motion and too much weight on dumbbell bench flys (and too much zealous bullheadedness) when I was still starting out. Been suffering on this since the first month and even cut out the ancillary exercises that caused it (a certain raise and DB flys), I still bring back the problem every week in a minor way. I think I know why now! Here's what it sparks me to ask.

1. Is this true of mil presses too? If so how far down? Without weight, I can feel a slight strain point just at the point where the bar would move below chin level.

2. On BB Bent over rows, the mechanical advantage would not seem to apply but I still have to ask. Does touching the top of the abs or bottom of the rib cage constitute exceeding necessary ROM. I haven't felt like I'm stretching the shoulder at the top of it but as I sit here bringing my elbow back in simulation, I can feel the difference at the shoulder. Perhaps stopping short of the top could be an good aid to let this blasted condition go away without having to knock off for an extended period (BTW, it went away completely during my last break)?

I was actually going to ask about bent over rows and standing military press as well.

:confused:

Certainly my right shoulder has suffered greatly due to too much range of motion and too much weight on dumbbell bench flys (and too much zealous bullheadedness) when I was still starting out.

DB flyes are tough on the shoulders for many people. I never do them (and as you can see from my sig, I'm not a big fan of flyes).

Is this true of mil presses too? If so how far down? Without weight, I can feel a slight strain point just at the point where the bar would move below chin level.

If you have to force that ROM, then definitely don't do it. Shoulders are a (relatively) delicate joint with weak structural support. I would follow the same method for bench press when determine ROM for this exercise. For me, at chin level or slightly below is most comfortable. Any lower than that and I actually have to pull the bar down.

On BB Bent over rows, the mechanical advantage would not seem to apply but I still have to ask. Does touching the top of the abs or bottom of the rib cage constitute exceeding necessary ROM.

I think it depends on your individual physiology and how you do them. I generally bring the bar to my waist area, and so my elbows don't go back too far. If the form you currently use gives you pain, then I would change up the form some.

Perhaps stopping short of the top could be an good aid to let this blasted condition go away without having to knock off for an extended period (BTW, it went away completely during my last break)?

I injured my shoulder awhile back doing DB incline press. My left shoulder has always given me problems, but I've really upped the amount of rotator cuff work I do (particularly external rotation), and recently I've started doing a few scapular wall slides. My shoulder now actually feels very good.

Awesome, thanks for posting that.

I'm going to change up on Monday.

That's a really good article. Pretty much everything I'm trying to say is in there.

Here is another article I came across awhile back. It makes some pretty sound recommendations IMO.

http://www.basrat.org/docs/carly_green_bench_press_journal_2007.pdf

BTW, "biacromial width" is just a fancy way of saying body width.

Here is another article I came across awhile back. It makes some pretty sound recommendations IMO.

http://www.basrat.org/docs/carly_green_bench_press_journal_2007.pdf

BTW, "biacromial width" is just a fancy way of saying body width.

I wonder what they might have said about the use of a Hammer Strength press machine or a good pec deck in lieu of DB And BB varieties? We won't know until they look at it.

I wonder what they might have said about the use of a Hammer Strength press machine or a good pec deck in lieu of DB And BB varieties? We won't know until they look at it.

I imagine they'd say a pec deck is pretty safe. But, there are some instances in which a pec deck is not an adequate substitute for a bench press (i.e. for strength development). I don't know much about a hammer strength machine....I've seen them, but I've never used one.

I wonder what they might have said about the use of a Hammer Strength press machine or a good pec deck in lieu of DB And BB varieties? We won't know until they look at it.

For upper body exercises the Iso-Lateral Hammer Strength machines are pretty good. They usually have long enough grips that you can use a suitable grip, and they usually have chosen the fulcrums and lever lengths and angles well. Plus they are unilateral. I wouldn't expect them to be any worse than free weights from a safety point of view. You just have to remember (like free weights) not to let your elbows go where they should not go, and to load up a lot more since 1 pound on those machines is not one pound of freeweights.

I particularly like the variety of Hammer strength row and pulldown machines.

Legs? I'm less enthusiastic about machines.

I imagine they'd say a pec deck is pretty safe. But, there are some instances in which a pec deck is not an adequate substitute for a bench press (i.e. for strength development). I don't know much about a hammer strength machine....I've seen them, but I've never used one.

The pec dec I dunno so much. I definitely use them, but I just don't have much of a view as to their effectiveness or safety.

The Hammer Strength machines, especially the "Iso-Lateral" ones, are sort of like "weight machines for people who don't like weight machines". Basically they are plate loaded lever machines - with an individual lever for each side of the body (Iso-Lateral = lateral isolation). The thing that makes them preferable to many typical lever machines is that they have the levers mounted at angles, and bent to angles so that the range of motion works reasonably well.

The pec dec I dunno so much. I definitely use them, but I just don't have much of a view as to their effectiveness or safety.


I actually don't like the pec deck. I tried it a few times for kicks a long time ago, and I didn't really feel that it did anything for the chest. Actually, it was my delts that felt like they were the ones getting fatigued. The only thing I can think of in terms of safety is stability of the shoulder joint with adduction of the humerus at 90 degree angles from the body. That definitely causes problems for some people.

DB flyes are tough on the shoulders for many people. I never do them (and as you can see from my sig, I'm not a big fan of flyes).


Thanks for the response on that. It's not that I actually have to force nor have that much pain in it now. The aftermath is that it has a lessor version of the pain it brought when I first did it with the flies. Right now I think I will back off on all of them in the appropriate ROM areas and see if it helps.

I'm going to play with those ROMs this week. Should be fun to add lots of weight (except on the mil press, that sticking point is up at forehead level!).

1. Is this true of mil presses too? If so how far down?

2. On BB Bent over rows, the mechanical advantage would not seem to apply but I still have to ask. Does touching the top of the abs or bottom of the rib cage constitute exceeding necessary ROM.

1. It's just as true of military presses as bench presses. Some guys think it's only one or another angle, and, since everyone is different, you can have the problem on any angle and not on others. The one universal thing is to avoid this sort of problem completely. You figure the correct ROM for you the same way as in the bench - you find the passive ROM (use a broomstick or body bar) and then you stay 15 degrees above that.

2. Same as all these things - it may or may not. If you have a huge gut, then your bent over rows might be to small a ROM, and if you are lean, then touching the middle of the torso might be too much ROM. Find the passive ROM by pulling your elbows back easily as if you were rowing, and see where they start to feel resistance. Then stay 15 degrees of shoulder angle in front of that. It should be right around the same position as the bottom position of the bench press.

. Certainly my right shoulder has suffered greatly due to too much range of motion and too much weight on dumbbell bench flys (and too much zealous bullheadedness) when I was still starting out. Been suffering on this since the first month and even cut out the ancillary exercises that caused it (a certain raise and DB flys), ?

Always make sure you are using proper form. For DB flys, lie on a flat bench. with dumbbells in hands extend arms upwards from your shoulders with palms facing each other. Bend your elbows slightly and keep them bend during exercise. keep your hands, elbows, and shoulders when viewed from the side in line with each other. Lower the dumbbells slowly out to the sides in a semicircular arc as low as possible comfortably, you shouldn't lower elbows below bench. be careful about going to low in bottom position. Return the dumbbells in the same arc to the top position.

Try this with light dumbbells and increase weights slowly. I have never felt any discomfort. Only my pecs are worked by this form.

When I use a machine for flys. I use a iso-lateral type. During the exercise, my elbows are always bent and locked and they never go beyond back pad.

A DB lateral raise, I do it standing with slight bend in knees and I lean forward about 20 degrees from waist, DBs are at side facing each other with a slight bend of elbow. Keep elbow and wrist locked during exercise. All action is around shoulder joints. Raise arms sideways pause briefly when dumbbells are slightly above horizontal, palms should be facing down. then lower dbs back to sides. try it with light weights.

I try to do a 3-4 sec up and 3-4 sec down movement with all exercises. You would be surprised how many injuries are prevented by that and you focus on the muscle you are working. :tucool:

You do realize that never lowering the bar to my chest automatically adds about 50-100lbs to my bench press?

The lower my elbows go, the less weight I can lift.

I believe that is because your leverage decreases therefore putting more stress on your joints.

1. It's just as true of military presses as bench presses. Some guys think it's only one or another angle, and, since everyone is different, you can have the problem on any angle and not on others. The one universal thing is to avoid this sort of problem completely. You figure the correct ROM for you the same way as in the bench - you find the passive ROM (use a broomstick or body bar) and then you stay 15 degrees above that.

2. Same as all these things - it may or may not. If you have a huge gut, then your bent over rows might be to small a ROM, and if you are lean, then touching the middle of the torso might be too much ROM. Find the passive ROM by pulling your elbows back easily as if you were rowing, and see where they start to feel resistance. Then stay 15 degrees of shoulder angle in front of that. It should be right around the same position as the bottom position of the bench press.

Always make sure you are using proper form. For DB flys, lie on a flat bench. with dumbbells in hands extend arms upwards from your shoulders with palms facing each other. Bend your elbows slightly and keep them bend during exercise. keep your hands, elbows, and shoulders when viewed from the side in line with each other. Lower the dumbbells slowly out to the sides in a semicircular arc as low as possible comfortably, you shouldn't lower elbows below bench. be careful about going to low in bottom position. Return the dumbbells in the same arc to the top position.

Try this with light dumbbells and increase weights slowly. I have never felt any discomfort. Only my pecs are worked by this form.

When I use a machine for flys. I use a iso-lateral type. During the exercise, my elbows are always bent and locked and they never go beyond back pad.

A DB lateral raise, I do it standing with slight bend in knees and I lean forward about 20 degrees from waist, DBs are at side facing each other with a slight bend of elbow. Keep elbow and wrist locked during exercise. All action is around shoulder joints. Raise arms sideways pause briefly when dumbbells are slightly above horizontal, palms should be facing down. then lower dbs back to sides. try it with light weights.

I try to do a 3-4 sec up and 3-4 sec down movement with all exercises. You would be surprised how many injuries are prevented by that and you focus on the muscle you are working. :tucool:

The tips here would be an extremely valuable subject matter for a beginner sticky. That would not have helped me when I started because I wasn't reading much of anything except consumer level books on workouts. I started with an aggressive "dive in and do it, no pain no gain" attitude and I had no concept of the ROM issues. On the flys especially, they seemed like a also-ran exercise and I had no clue that there would be a problem grabbing the largest dumbbells I'd bought at that time. All I knew was the lower I dropped my upper arms from the bench, the more pain I'd get (when I recounted the experience to a female bodybuilder friend, she asked if I was really that stupid, I was). So much for "hardcore" ;).

But there are probably people who would read first and benefit. This thread is going to change a lot of our workouts, not just safety either, it's obviously going to increase effectiveness if we are able to pump the weight way up for the rest of the ROM. Today's Chest day and I'll be trying this on BP, tomorrow's squats and I'm especially anxious there since I rolled back by 55 pounds to get to reps while dropping to a knees closed position. It'll be fun to load the bar back up. What's ludicrous is I require that my son put a stool under him when he does squats to be a bottom point, yet for myself, I've made no such limits.

The wooden dowel approach does point out the stress points effectively once you know the feeling you are looking for. It becomes unnecessary to even ask the question as to where to stop on any specific exercise. Should have realized that yesterday. What troubles me there is that all the videos even on the best sites, show good form as the total ROM possible without caveats.

Excellent thread and info.

I believe that is because your leverage decreases therefore putting more stress on your joints.

Must be.

I hit 250# yesterday, almost easily again.

A few months ago my 1RM was over 300# for the Bench Press, but then I started lowering the bar all the way to my chest and it decreased to almost 200#.