I just received my lab results a few weeks ago, and my total cholesterol is at 442. Out of that, the LDL is 329 and HDL is at 45.

I’m currently 20, 5-11, and weigh 174lbs. I'm a college student and I have been eating the college diet for the past year or so. Prior to that, I was on a really strict diet and exercise plan (thanks to this forum). About a year ago I became really busy with school and life and the diet/ exercise slowly faded away. I also don't smoke, which if I did, would be something that I could cut out.

Up until I found out my results, I would eat out 15x a week, frequently pizza, and not exercise. In fact, up until I received my results, I haven’t worked out in over a year. Starting 3 weeks ago, I completely changed my diet back to 'strict' mode and I started keeping a spreadsheet of my daily intakes. I also started working out, primarily cardio, since that increases the HDL, which fights the LDL.

My nutritionist recommended that 30-60 minutes of increased heart rate per day helps the heart product the HDL. She also stated that the intensity of the workout is not a factor, as long as it’s an increased heart rate for a continuous period of time. I’m not sure how I feel about that, but I would definitely like to hear a second opinion from someone on this forum.

With my diet right now, I’m averaging 50 grams of fat per day, with roughly 2100 net calories a day. (Net calories meaning What I eat – What the treadmill says). I'm also eating oatmeal for breakfast, a handful of nuts per day, taking 1200mg of Red Yeast Rice, and 2000mg of Omega 3 Fish Oils.

My doctor wanted to put me on medication for high cholesterol (it runs in my family), but I feel that a lifestyle change would be a better first step. I'm also going out to California in a month or two, so I definitely want to get a little bit more in shape.

Does anyone have any success stories about lowering cholesterol w/o a prescription medication?

Thanks for reading. :tu:

I cut my total Chol from about 240 to 180 over a period of about a year; getting cardio into your life will pay big dividends as will cleaning up your diet. The advantage of not eating out is that you know EXACTLY what you are putting in your body and leaving nothing to chance.

Cardio as well greatly lowered my triglycerides, ALT, AST, and vastly lowered my risk for heart and liver disease...From having red all over my lipid profile, the panel is now totally normal and its almost entirely to cardio and good nutrition.

Just be vigalent on your nutrition and avoid being sedentary!

My nutritionist recommended that 30-60 minutes of increased heart rate per day helps the heart product the HDL. She also stated that the intensity of the workout is not a factor, as long as it’s an increased heart rate for a continuous period of time. I’m not sure how I feel about that, but I would definitely like to hear a second opinion from someone on this forum.

Interesting. I hadn't heard that claim before. It is true that endurance exercise increases HDL.

That intensity is not a factor doesn't make sense to me. You have to have at least some intensity, or else you could sit on your couch and call that really low intensity exercise. I am suspicious that higher intensity doesn't have some sort of dose-response effect. Can you ask her what is the basis of this recommendation? I'd like to think that one through.

My nutritionist recommended that 30-60 minutes of increased heart rate per day helps the heart product the HDL. She also stated that the intensity of the workout is not a factor, as long as it’s an increased heart rate for a continuous period of time. I’m not sure how I feel about that, but I would definitely like to hear a second opinion from someone on this forum.



I'm no doctor nor am I a nutritionist, but I've looked into raising HDL levels a bit. Though admittedly, the vast majority of my 'research' has been based on published journals found on the internet, I've found your nutritionist's statement to conform with pretty much everything I've found. The duration of your cardio workout is MORE important than the intensity of the workout (but that doesn't mean intensity doesn't matter).

One of the first things I realized when looking through various fitness forums is that although there is a great deal of overlap, the exercise and diet regimen for optimum health vs. the exercise and diet regimen for optimum physique aren't always the same. HIIT style cardio is probably more effective for body-builders, but doing 45-60 minutes LISS cardio is probably more effective for someone who wants to improve his/her cholesterol profile.

Another unexpected thing I found is that a lot of studies have found weightlifting to REDUCE your LDL (or bad cholesterol) levels along with various other cardio/vascular benefits.

HIIT style cardio is probably more effective for body-builders, but doing 45-60 minutes LISS cardio is probably more effective for someone who wants to improve his/her cholesterol profile.

Can you post links to abstracts?

I just received my lab results a few weeks ago, and my total cholesterol is at 442. Out of that, the LDL is 329 and HDL is at 45.

I’m currently 20, 5-11, and weigh 174lbs.

Holy friggin' christ! That is insanely high for anybody -- especially for a normal weight 20-year old. Even if you've got terrible genetics and are eating plates of Crisco for lunch every day, it seems very odd that your cholesterol is that high. I would consider getting re-tested just to make sure there wasn't an error....and if there isn't an error, maybe find out if there are other conditions that could be causing it. Because honestly, if that reading is accurate, you are probably going to have to go on some type of medication, even with good diet and exercise.

Just to let you know where I'm coming from: I've got high cholesterol on all sides of the family. About 9 years ago (in my late 20's then), I was overweight, ate TERRIBLY (fast food daily, washed down with a giant 64 oz cup of mountain dew), had hypothyroidism (which spikes cholesterol even more), and yet even then, my total cholesterol only topped out at 323 (LDL ~200). So, I guess I would say that you should talk to your doctor about this....and maybe consider getting a re-test, because there is just no way your levels should be that high.

I have managed to significantly raise my HDL and lower my triglycerides (both excellent) through nutrition and exercise however my recent LDL results were around 350 despite being active and having a pretty healthy diet all my life. I would do all you can with diet and exercise but at the end of the day some of us with bad genetics will have to choose whether to take statins or not.

Can you post links to abstracts?

Don't have the original published articles with me, but here are some articles based on the study.

http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/cholesterol.html (http://www.unm.edu/%7Elkravitz/Article%20folder/cholesterol.html)

http://www.signaturemedicinemd.com/pdfs/How%20to%20Raise%20HDL.pdf
(http://www.signaturemedicinemd.com/pdfs/How%20to%20Raise%20HDL.pdf)
http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050703/NEWS/507030315/1016/FEATURES07&template=printart (http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050703/NEWS/507030315/1016/FEATURES07&template=printart)

http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/cholesterol/a/raiseHDL.htm

I cut my total Chol from about 240 to 180 over a period of about a year;

That is good to hear, so there is at least some hope. Thanks for the input.

You have to have at least some intensity, or else you could sit on your couch and call that really low intensity exercise.
...
Can you ask her what is the basis of this recommendation? I'd like to think that one through.

Well she stated that an increased heart rate for 30-60 minutes helps, so that means that I have to do some type of activity. Sitting on my couch wouldn't really be elevating my heart rate. I just sent her an email, asking her to clarify why having 85% heart rate would be just as effective as 65%.

I've found your nutritionist's statement to conform with pretty much everything I've found. The duration of your cardio workout is MORE important than the intensity of the workout

Thanks, I have also found it hard to find a definitive source. Most of the places that talk about cardio and lowering cholesterol are targeted to people that are over-weight. By being over-weight, any type of fat loss would help lower cholesterol, so they're more focused on that opposed to increasing HDL.

I would consider getting re-tested just to make sure there wasn't an error....and if there isn't an error, maybe find out if there are other conditions that could be causing it. Because honestly, if that reading is accurate, you are probably going to have to go on some type of medication, even with good diet and exercise.


This was my exact reaction my first time, immediately thinking that it was a mistake. I also read online that fasting is required for an accurate reading, etc. I fasted for my second test, and the numbers were pretty close.

It turns out that older tests would measure your triglyceride levels, and measure your LDL/HDL to be a percentage of that. Your triglyceride levels also fluctuate depending on what you eat within a certain period of time, so they recommend fasting for 12 hours prior.

There's a new type of test called LDL Direct, which bypasses the whole triglyceride levels and goes directly for the LDL. I'm not positive how they derive the HDL, but probably a similar process.

I have managed to significantly raise my HDL and lower my triglycerides (both excellent) through nutrition and exercise however my recent LDL results were around 350 despite being active and having a pretty healthy diet all my life. I would do all you can with diet and exercise but at the end of the day some of us with bad genetics will have to choose whether to take statins or not.

What was your cholesterol level prior to changing your nutrition and exercise? Also, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

I've also read a lot of things which state that cholesterol levels really aren't a big deal if you're eating right and exercising. A lot of things point to the fact that some people can just live and function perfectly fine with higher levels than others.

That being said, I will probably have to go on statins at some point or another. Right now I'm taking supplements of Red Yeast Rice, which is a natural statin (I believe 30% of Lipitor is Red Yeast Rice).

Can you ask her what is the basis of this recommendation? I'd like to think that one through.

She emailed me back today with this:


As I understand it, any aerobic exercise will help to increase HDL. An increase in lipoprotein lipase in response to exercise causes a breakdown of triglycerides and an increase in HDL. Recently there was a study showing that duration may be more important that intensity. If this holds true, then a more intense work out is usually of shorter duration therefore the potential for less of an effect on HDL. Maybe the ideal exercise would be high heart rate and long time.


She has a good point. Right now, if I set the treadmill speed to 4.5 mphs, I can spend over an hour on it. If I set the speed to 5.5 or 6.0 mph, I can last abot a half hour, but burn more Calories.

If time is the variable for HDL production then perhaps I should:

Determine how long I want to do Cardio for (usually 30, 45, or 60 minutes)
Start it at 5.5 / 6.0 mph, and when I run out of "energy", just walk the rest of the time at 4.5


As pathetic as it sounds, I break a sweat after 10 minutes at the 4.5 mph setting, but I'm getting better.

I have never heard of anyone to have cholesterol levels over 400! I would get a second test at another lab. I had high cholesterol last year (231mg) and my doc put me on medication. Today my levels are around 130mg and I am no longer taking meds. You can read about it here (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=40582). I contribute my success to eating healthy and exercising on a regular basis. No doubt you can lower your levels by doing just that.

I would seriously consider having another test done somewhere else. Make sure you fast for 12 hours prior to getting your blood drawn. Good luck!

Mine is a bit high too.....but I've lowered it WITHOUT pills, but with strict exercise and proper nutrition.

There is ALWAYS hope.

1500 mgs of flush B3 or Niacin a day. I have seen people lower their total number by 100 points in less than 2 months.:cool:

1500 mgs of flush B3 or Niacin a day. I have seen people lower their total number by 100 points in less than 2 months.:cool:

Niacin is very good for cholesterol control.

The "no flush Niacin" (inositol hexanicotinate) is just as effective.

I used the inositol hexanicotinate for almost a year, and dropped my cholesterol a bit with it (although it wasn't that high to start with). I got Niacin last bottle as opposed to the inositol hexanicotinate, and I can't really tell the difference. I get no flushing. I will be getting blood work next week so we will see if there is any difference in effectiveness, but I expect no difference.

Studies have been done and have found no difference in cholesterol effect between niacin and inositol nicotinate. This makes sense because inositol hexanicotinate is just six niacin molecules stuck to an inositol sugar molecule; in the body, the niacin gradually gets taken off the inositol sugar and that niacin is actually niacin. The only difference is that the niacin from inositol hexanicotinate is gradually released as opposed to all at one time.

So there appears to be no need for, and no benefit from, the flushing effect that some (but not all) people get from straight niacin.

I have never heard of anyone to have cholesterol levels over 400!

I don't know the highest recorded level, but there are people with cholesterol levels above 1200.

However it's not all bad news;-

According to a paper I have in front of me.....


(1) Older people with low Cholesterol die twice as often from heart attacks.
(2) Low Cholesterol hikes risk of Congestive heart failure.
(3) People with high Cholesterol live longer, period.

One study showed that people with low cholesterol died twice as often from heart failure as patients with Cholesterol over 223.

Lowering your Cholesterol will not get rid of Arterial Plaque.

At the least take one 1200mg capsule of unbleached Lecithin a day.


I can remember when it was said that Arthritic patients had too much Calcium in their body because they were getting deposits around the joints.

Actually the reverse is true. They are getting Calcium deposits because the body is desperately trying to create a Calcium repair when there basically isn't enough in the body to facilitate it under normal cicumstances.


And there is some research to warrant the same effect for Cholesterol.
When you have Cholesterol deposits in the arteries , in many cases it's because the body is desparately trying to counter your low-cholesterol diet in order to repair said arteries. Cholesterol is what is used by the body for artery wall repair.

YOU CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT ANY CHOLESTEROL IN YOUR BODY.

It is absolutely necessary for a healthy heart and arteries.

And if you're a body builder you're going to need a goodly supply.

So...chucking out all the Sat fats and going veggy oil is the worst thing you can do....weightlifter or not.

(1) Older people with low Cholesterol die twice as often from heart attacks.
(2) Low Cholesterol hikes risk of Congestive heart failure.
(3) People with high Cholesterol live longer, period.

Yeah there is a minority of medical researchers that have this point of view.

It's really hard for me to take it seriously because there are some giant studies that have been done where the people with the high cholesterol had more coronary artery disease. The "cholesterol myth" people usually claim there are no such studies. I don't know why they claim that. The Framingham study in particular. For example here is a paper based on the Framingham study participants - they looked at ones that did not already have heart disease, and they followed them all the way until they either got heart disease or else died of something else:

Lifetime Risk of Coronary Heart Disease by Cholesterol Levels at Selected Ages

Donald M. Lloyd-Jones, MD, ScM; Peter W. F. Wilson, MD; Martin G. Larson, ScD; Eric Leip, MS; Alexa Beiser, PhD; Ralph B. D'Agostino, PhD; James I. Cleeman, MD; Daniel Levy, MD

Arch Intern Med. 2003;163:1966-1972.

Background We sought to assess how cholesterol levels at different ages modify the remaining lifetime risk of coronary heart disease (CHD).

Methods We included all Framingham Heart Study participants examined from 1971 through 1996 who did not have CHD and were not receiving lipid-lowering therapy. At index ages of 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80 years, participants were stratified by total cholesterol level and by cholesterol subfractions. Lifetime risk of CHD was calculated with death free of CHD as a competing event.

Results Among 3269 men and 4019 women, 1120 developed CHD and 1365 died free of CHD during follow-up. At each index age, lifetime risk of CHD increased with higher cholesterol levels, and time to event decreased. At age 40 years, the lifetime risks of CHD through age 80 years for men with total cholesterol levels less than 200 mg/dL (<5.20 mmol/L), 200 to 239 mg/dL (5.20-6.19 mmol/L), and 240 mg/dL or greater (>=6.20 mmol/L), respectively, were 31%, 43%, and 57%; for women, the lifetime risks were 15%, 26%, and 33%, respectively. Lifetime risks contrasted sharply with shorter-term risks: at age 40 years, the 10-year cumulative risks of CHD were 3%, 5%, and 12% for men, and 1%, 2%, and 5% for women, respectively.

Conclusions Lifetime risk of CHD increases sharply with higher total cholesterol levels for men and women at all ages. These data support an important role for cholesterol screening in younger patients, and they may help target high-risk patients for lifestyle modification or drug therapy. (http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/163/16/1966)

Looks like the people with the high cholesterol were more likely to get heart disease before they were able to die of something else.

It is recognized that other things - perhaps C-reactive protein - may be even better at measuring risk, but that doesn't mean cholesterol tells you nothing about heart disease risk.

Dimava:- (quote)....you were eating out 15 times a week and of that most of it was pizza. And you did zero exercise.

Pizza contains lots of cheese. Cheese contains lots of sat fat.

Excessive sat fat will raise your Cholesterol.

So....cut out the voluminous amounts of pizza.

Eat oatmeal on a daily basis.

Drink green tea also.

Often overlooked:- Regardless of a person's height,weight,family history....STRESS will raise Cholesterol levels. So you could be eating healthy as hell, but, if you're in a prolonged stressful climate this is something to consider. You might want to look at ways to reduce stress.
A graduated exercise program is good for this. Because the fitter you are, the better you can handle stress. But sometimes stress is created by the way we react to things, not the situation itself. Meditation can be good for lowering stress plus a comprehensive assessment of how you react to given situations and WHY you react that way. Not saying this is the case for you but it bears scrutiny as a routine procedure IMO.

Sounds like you're a busy guy and you eat "on the go" a lot.

But a steady diet of Pizza in large amounts is not good.

( I know all the pizza junkies will now rush to post in defense of pizza...but basically, commercial pizza IMO is junk food. Just because it's got some bits of chicken,peppers and pine-apple on top of it doesn't turn it into a health food.)

Congrats on making a choice to get in shape.:tucool:

Excessive sat fat will raise your Cholesterol.


I don't even think that is necessarily true. I eat a lot of saturated fat these days and my cholesterol is lower than it was when I ate little of it but a lot more carbs. My HDL is excellent (62) as is my LDL/HDL ratio. My triglycerides are low. This with a history in the family of high cholesterol.

I have never heard of anyone to have cholesterol levels over 400!

Mine is over 400 if I don't take my medication.

I would seriously consider having another test done somewhere else. Make sure you fast for 12 hours prior to getting your blood drawn.

That's actually a good idea, I'm going to look into that. Do they even have walk-in Cholesterol checking labs?

Mine is a bit high too.....but I've lowered it WITHOUT pills, but with strict exercise and proper nutrition.
Good to hear, hopefully the same will work for me.

1500 mgs of flush B3 or Niacin a day. I have seen people lower their total number by 100 points in less than 2 months.:cool:

Thanks for the advice, I will look more into this.

I used the inositol hexanicotinate for almost a year, and dropped my cholesterol a bit with it (although it wasn't that high to start with). I got Niacin last bottle as opposed to the inositol hexanicotinate, and I can't really tell the difference. I get no flushing. I will be getting blood work next week so we will see if there is any difference in effectiveness, but I expect no difference.

Please keep us posted on the results... this might just be the "magic" cure.

YOU CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT ANY CHOLESTEROL IN YOUR BODY.

It is absolutely necessary for a healthy heart and arteries.

And if you're a body builder you're going to need a goodly supply.

So...chucking out all the Sat fats and going veggy oil is the worst thing you can do....weightlifter or not.

It's always good to hear another side of things. However, everything that I have read suggests that Cholesterol levels as high as mine are just beginning to dig my grave.


So....cut out the voluminous amounts of pizza.

I'm completely with you on this one. Infact, I have pretty much cut it out aside from one slice a week. (I have just posted my diet for the past 19 days here: http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?p=598224).

I don't even think that is necessarily true. I eat a lot of saturated fat these days and my cholesterol is lower than it was when I ate little of it but a lot more carbs. My HDL is excellent (62) as is my LDL/HDL ratio. My triglycerides are low. This with a history in the family of high cholesterol.

Interesting, I haven't read about that yet. There are a lot of things which point to reducing overall fat. There are also a lot of things that state that fat is O.K. as long as its primarily Mono and Poly Unsaturated.

What is your daily intake of Saturated Fat?

Mine is over 400 if I don't take my medication.

If you don't mind me asking, what was it before & after, and which medication are you taking?

thanks!

Please keep us posted on the results... this might just be the "magic" cure.

It's not magic, it's really just the same as time release niacin. Niacin is one of the oldest and most effective LDL cholesterol lowering treatments, but itr has a flushing side effect for a few people, so this gets you the Niacin without less possibility of flushing. (And they did clinical trials to see if the flushing was part of the therapeutic effect but people lowered cholesterol just as much on the "no-flush".)

The one thing about Niacin is that whichever kind you take, you can't take more than 1.5 grams a day without getting your liver function tested regularly.

Everything that I have read suggests that Cholesterol levels as high as mine are just beginning to dig my grave.

High serum LDL cholesterol is dangerous.

But don't confuse that with dietary cholesterol. Dietary fat is more of a source of cholesterol, and, as been pointed out, you need cholesterol.

Cholesterol is important because (except for Vitamin D) all your steroid hormones come from it. Like testosterone, just to name the most popular for muscle builders. Also estrogen, cortisol, etc. Your body doesn't go so good without these. And that is why you need cholesterol.

The trouble comes when you have more cholesterol than you need for those hormones, etc. Then it sort of floats around in your blood, and a little of that is OK but too much is not good. The serum cholesterol test measures the stuff that is floating around in the blood. All the other cholesterol you used that doesn't show up in the blood is fine - you needed it.

By the way don't discount exercise as a way to reduce serum cholesterol. I still eat a diet that is completely "unsafe" from a cholesterol point of view, but since I have been exercising heavily, I dropped my overall serum cholesterol from 260 to 200. With the niacin, I get it down to about 190. So don't kid yourself - a high level of physical activity is quite effective for cholesterol reduction.

Interesting, I haven't read about that yet. There are a lot of things which point to reducing overall fat. There are also a lot of things that state that fat is O.K. as long as its primarily Mono and Poly Unsaturated.

What is your daily intake of Saturated Fat?

I eat like the Anabolic Diet, which has about 60% of you calories from fat, about 1x your body weight in lbs in protien, and 30 g carbs net of fiber daily on most days, with 1-2 days a week where you carb load and pretty much reverse those numbers.

I haven't been tracking much lately, but I am pretty sure I exceed 60g of saturated fats alone on the high fat days.

There are some people who are hyper-responders to dietary cholesterol, but they are the minority. I just read an egg study on this the other day where most people who ate eggs had only minor changes in their serum cholesterol numbers, while a minority had noticable increases. You might very well be sensitive to dietary cholesterol more than most.

MannishBoy..

For actual footage and documentation of what excessive sat fats do for Cholesterol, check out the movie/documentary " Super-Size Me ".

notice I used the word "excessive"..

MannishBoy..

For actual footage and documentation of what excessive sat fats do for Cholesterol, check out the movie/documentary " Super-Size Me ".

notice I used the word "excessive"..

There was a recent study published saying just the opposite, that a lot of the bad results of that type of diet on fast food come from the junk carbs combined with the fat. High triglycerides especially come from this metabolic pathway.

The fat itself doesn't give most the bad results.

I'm eating a ton of 85% grass fed beef, steak, whole chickens including (gasp!) the skin, lots of eggs, and lots of cheese. And my numbers improved as I said. I just posted my current blood work and my blood work of 3 years ago in my journal. I'm not kidding about them or my food consumption. And I'm not alone finding this out with this type of diet.

Yes, I get a lot of so called "healthy" fat, too.

Read Good Calories, Bad Calories (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208312791&sr=8-1) for more scientific studies than you ever want to see compiled.

But like I said before, there are some minority of people who are hypersensitive to dietary cholesterol and saturated fats. These people obviously need to change their diet. The OP might be one, I don't know.

MannishBoy..

For actual footage and documentation of what excessive sat fats do for Cholesterol, check out the movie/documentary " Super-Size Me ".

notice I used the word "excessive"..

How do we know it was the saturated fat and not the trans fat or the excessive consumption of simple carbs in all that soda and those milkshakes that led to Spurlock's change in cholesterol? Scientific studies control for that type of thing and are a lot more reliable than "documentaries" (and I use that word loosely, especially in regard to Super Size Me) that start out with a foregone conclusion.

How do we know it was the saturated fat and not the trans fat or the excessive consumption of simple carbs in all that soda and those milkshakes that led to Spurlock's change in cholesterol? Scientific studies control for that type of thing and are a lot more reliable than "documentaries" (and I use that word loosely, especially in regard to Super Size Me) that start out with a foregone conclusion.

The Spurlock evidence is just from one person. Another person who went on the "McDonalds Diet" for quite a bit longer is Lee Sayer, and you can check that out at his web site (http://homepage.mac.com/lsayer/mcles/index.html). His evidence is about as reliable as that of Spurlock - a trial without a contol, with one subject.

I doubt that a month of excess simple carbs will drive the cholesterol up. I think the biosynthesis of cholesterol from fat is more direct.

The thing that really irks me about most diet advice is that it is directed at some sort of "average" person who is utterly sedentary. How much serum cholesterol is safe for the population at large? Well that is one number. What about someone who does a good volume of intense strength exercise who recruits a lot more testosterone than a couch potato? Yes, the exercise cuts down on the circulating LDL cholesterol, upregulates the HDL cholesterol (which is scavenging the LDL stuff to synthesize hormones, etc.). Does that not suggest that the exercise response is limited by serum cholesterol? So should the "safe" level of serum LDL cholesterol be independent of activity level?

There was this one guy in Super Size Me who has eaten a Big Mac a day for years and years and his cholesterol was fine. However, they made a point of noting that he never ever ate the french fries.:confused:

The Spurlock evidence is just from one person. Another person who went on the "McDonalds Diet" for quite a bit longer is Lee Sayer, and you can check that out at his web site (http://homepage.mac.com/lsayer/mcles/index.html). His evidence is about as reliable as that of Spurlock - a trial without a contol, with one subject.

Well, yeah, that was my point: that Super Size Me is not a scientific study and one should be hesitant to draw conclusions from it. Cholesterol depends on many factors and it's not as easy as "cut out saturated fat."

Well, yeah, that was my point: that Super Size Me is not a scientific study and one should be hesitant to draw conclusions from it. Cholesterol depends on many factors and it's not as easy as "cut out saturated fat."

About the only really easy things about controlling cholesterol are

1) Exercise

2) Drugs - e.g. niacin, statins, etc.

The whole dietary thing is complicated, as far as I can tell. Cholesterol is synthesized from "acetyl coenzyme A (aka acetyl coA)" and that stuff comes about both from fatty acids and from glucose. And it's also used for a lot of different things in the body - not just making cholesterol.

The story of acetyl coA is really important - where you get yours, and what you do with it. But it's complicated, at least with my limited understanding, it's not easy to suss out what is going on without lots of lab tests and knowledge of individual circumstances. But if we could imagine a control panel applet for your metabolism, we would want a tab for acetyl coA.

Not adding much here. But Niacin works. I too had the same problem and I asked the same question a while back. The same people here recommended Niacin and my cholesterol was down the next time I went to the doctor.

If you don't mind me asking, what was it before & after, and which medication are you taking?

thanks!

My cholesterol level is hereditary. I have known since the age of ten. at that age I went on a low fat diet and was retested 15 years later when it was over 400 I have been on medication since. occsssionally I come off medication to see if all the exercise I do makes any difference etc short story is it doesn't...... nutrition and exercise make no difference to my LDL level however due to exercise and nutrition (not low fat any more) my HDL and triglyceride levels are VERY good. I was taking 20mg of TAHOR daily, I have justv started to try a new drug called CRESTOR, it is newer and supposed to have fewer side effects.

Thanks for the input... I'm going to stick to my diet / exercise for the next 3-6 months and get re-tested. If I don't drop at least 50 points, I will definitely give Niacin a try.

About the only really easy things about controlling cholesterol are

1) Exercise

.

Hmmm....From what I've read, exercise doesn't do much for total cholesterol or LDL (a recent meta-analysis I came across shows it reduces LDL, but the effect is tiny)....but, it can raise HDL resulting in a better ratio I guess.

I'm eating a ton of 85% grass fed beef, steak, whole chickens including (gasp!) the skin, lots of eggs, and lots of cheese. And my numbers improved as I said. I just posted my current blood work and my blood work of 3 years ago in my journal. I'm not kidding about them or my food consumption. And I'm not alone finding this out with this type of diet.


Yeah, but didn't you also clean up your diet in general and start exercising? And....did you actually INCREASE your sat. fat intake? Or did you eat similar amounts, yet from different sources (i.e. steak instead of fries). I dunno.....when I initially got my high cholesterol reading (323), I reduced my sat. fat intake drastically, and my cholesterol dropped 80-90 points within about 4-5 weeks. This was before I started exercising....and so I attribute the drop primarily to my diet.

Yeah, but didn't you also clean up your diet in general and start exercising?

No. This was after I cleaned up my diet to a higher carb, high protein, and much lower than current consumption saturated fat diet. And I was already exercising prior to that initial bloodwork (which wasn't bad, just worse than this current test).

And....did you actually INCREASE your sat. fat intake?

Probably threefold. I eat in excess of 160 g of fat on high fat days (I carb load on weekends for at least 1 day, Anabolic Diet style). I haven't tracked lately, but well over 1/3 is probably saturated, but all natural saturated.



Here is my lipid info: Total Chol:167, LDL 93, HDL 62, Triglycerides 59, TG/HDL (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/464776) (shows the large "good" LDL vs the risky small LDL) <1, LDL/HDL 1.5

Old numbers were total 189, LDL 121, HDL 46, TG 109 (more than 2x as high), TG/HDL 2.3, LDL/HDL 2.6

Both parents have/had high cholesterol, and there's a high heart disease (and stroke) risk in the extended family.

Hmmm....From what I've read, exercise doesn't do much for total cholesterol or LDL

That's almost right. Exercise is well proven for raising HDL. Most people don't do enough exercise to really change their LDL. Most studies aim at sort of average-ish levels of exercise which is why you won't get much LDL response to exercise in the literature. But if you create a noticeable caloric deficit with exercise, then many people will see LDL and total cholesterol come down compared to their untrained state.

Yeah, but didn't you also clean up your diet in general and start exercising? And....did you actually INCREASE your sat. fat intake? Or did you eat similar amounts, yet from different sources (i.e. steak instead of fries). I dunno.....when I initially got my high cholesterol reading (323), I reduced my sat. fat intake drastically, and my cholesterol dropped 80-90 points within about 4-5 weeks. This was before I started exercising....and so I attribute the drop primarily to my diet.

I definitely didn't clean up my diet. I didn't change it at all yet. And I have added as much saturated fat (steak and milk) as I feel like. Before I started my exercise program, my total cholesterol was 260, with exercise only, it went down to just about 200, and with added niacin supplement, it's down to 190.

So in my case, pure exercise was responsible for a 60 point decrease and niacin got me another 10 points.

I still haven't tried diet yet.

Probably threefold. I eat in excess of 160 g of fat on high fat days (I carb load on weekends for at least 1 day, Anabolic Diet style). I haven't tracked lately, but well over 1/3 is probably saturated, but all natural saturated.


That's great that your profile improved, but given that you constitute an n of 1, I'd be reluctant to throw out the saturated fat/LDL connection on the basis of your experiences (or recommend that somebody with high LDL levels follow a high sat. fat diet).

And I have added as much saturated fat (steak and milk) as I feel like. Before I started my exercise program, my total cholesterol was 260, with exercise only, it went down to just about 200, and with added niacin supplement, it's down to 190.

So in my case, pure exercise was responsible for a 60 point decrease and niacin got me another 10 points.

For me it was the opposite. The only thing that has really had an effect on my cholesterol was diet. Exercise has increased my HDL slightly, but it had zero effect on my LDL and total cholesterol. Most of the literature also shows pretty small effects (on the order of 5-10%).

That's great that your profile improved, but given that you constitute an n of 1, I'd be reluctant to throw out the saturated fat/LDL connection on the basis of your experiences (or recommend that somebody with high LDL levels follow a high sat. fat diet)

True, but there are a lot of studies backing this type of thing up.

Read Good Calories, Bad Calories (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208563392&sr=8-1) by Taubes. It even got guava reconsidering the mainstream advice on saturated fats and it is full of scientific references.

That triglycerides number up there that dropped about in half? I'm convinced that that is primarily tied to controling my insulin levels.

But as I've said above in the thread, there are some people with high cholesterol problems that are hyper sensitive to dietary saturated fats and cholesterol, so definitely you have to try things yourself. There was an egg study that showed this I read not long ago where most people could add 3 eggs to their diets and see little increased risk effects to their serum cholesterol levels (increased both HDL and large molecule LDL..which are both good), while maybe 10% of the study had negative effects.

Kind of like how salt raises some people's blood pressure, where for most it isn't that much of a factor at all if hydration is good.

Read Good Calories, Bad Calories (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208563392&sr=8-1) by Taubes. It even got guava reconsidering the mainstream advice on saturated fats and it is full of scientific references.


Sounds interesting -- Maybe I'll have to pick it up this book with my next Amazon order.

Sounds interesting -- Maybe I'll have to pick it up this book with my next Amazon order.

New York Times piece (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E2D61F3EF934A35754C0A9649C8B 63&sec=health) he did I think before the book.

Video of a Taubes lecture (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4362041487661765149&q=taubes&ei=Az4JSMrrHJCqrgKm-cn4Dg).

There's some stuff he says about exercise and all that is a bit thin, but he definitely makes you look at what you think you know from mainstream nutrition in a different way.

I just received my lab results a few weeks ago, and my total cholesterol is at 442. Out of that, the LDL is 329 and HDL is at 45.


Chances (in fact almost sure) are that you have Familial Hypercholesteremia (FH) : http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1072.htm.
Surely the heterozygous form, otherwise (Homozygous form) you would be already aware of it, or dead :whistle:.

What you do is right : diet, red yeast, exercise. But you have to be very aggressive towards it. If your current actions are not effective very soon, take the medications.

I've only just noticed this thread, or I would have weighed in earlier.

dimava, you don't really have any options. Rhodan's right when he says that you may have FH [his comments are correct about homo/heterozygous also], and diet and exercise will not be enough to control your cardiovascular risk adequately.

I'm a cardiothoracic surgeon, and my recent thesis was on the function of bypass grafts with particular reference to the role of oxidised LDL in causing vascular injury [as it happens, amongst the open windows on my desktop is the manuscript I'm preparing for journal submission! timing or what]. I have a fair bit of insight in this area, and there have been NO studies to date where lowering the cholesterol of subjects was detrimental to their cardiovascular endpoints, no matter how low their start point. Even lowering cholesterol from normal to sub-hormal levels decreases a person's risk.

Yours is above double the upper limit of acceptable, and probably triple what it really should be. Diet and exercise will get you 10-25% reductions, but you need >50% reductions to be on the sensible side. If I was you, I'd be insisting on a fibrate AND a statin, and ensuring that the doses are titrated correctly, not just left on the starting dose. You're 20, meaning that you should reasonably expect about 60 years more. Don't delay this, or you'll be coming to see someone like me and be receiving a fancy set of scars far too young. The youngest man I ever did bypass grafts on was a fat, smoking, diabetic 29 year old. He'll not make 45.

Don't be like him.

Andrew.

PS, PM me if you want, and I can give you a personalised bollixing.

Chances (in fact almost sure) are that you have Familial Hypercholesteremia (FH) : http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1072.htm.
Surely the heterozygous form, otherwise (Homozygous form) you would be already aware of it, or dead :whistle:.

What you do is right : diet, red yeast, exercise. But you have to be very aggressive towards it. If your current actions are not effective very soon, take the medications.

Thanks for the heads-up about that, I will look more into this.

as it happens, amongst the open windows on my desktop is the manuscript I'm preparing for journal submission! timing or what

Good timing indeed... I just sent you a PM.

Don't have the original published articles with me, but here are some articles based on the study.

http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/cholesterol.html (http://www.unm.edu/%7Elkravitz/Article%20folder/cholesterol.html)

http://www.signaturemedicinemd.com/pdfs/How%20to%20Raise%20HDL.pdf
(http://www.signaturemedicinemd.com/pdfs/How%20to%20Raise%20HDL.pdf)
http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050703/NEWS/507030315/1016/FEATURES07&template=printart (http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050703/NEWS/507030315/1016/FEATURES07&template=printart)

http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/cholesterol/a/raiseHDL.htm

Yeah I have seen that stuff. I think if you drill down a little you will find that in controlled studies they haven't usually gone for intense exercise, which is why they don't say much about what good it might be. A lot of the medical stuff is where they are trying to figure out the smallest dose of exercise which might do the job - doctors usually look to figure out the least dose that works for any drug, and they think that way about exercise. The side effect they are worried about with intense exercise is usually "non-compliance" - that the patient won't do it.

I just got the results of my recent routine bloodwork. First where things were back in 2006:

Got the blood work back from the check-up. Two years ago, the serum cholesterol was 255. Triglycerides were high.

This time:

Cholesterol: 201
LDL: 118
HDL: 60
HDL Ratio: 3.4
Triglycerides: 114

The 201 cholesterol is "normal", but all the other numbers are much better than normal if the information on the internet is to be believed.

Health improvement is one goal I wanted to make a lot of progress on, and it appears that we are well on the way.

And then a couple months ago:

Blood work of Feb 21, 2008:

Total Cholesterol 188
HDL 44
LDL 101
Ratio 4.3
Triglycerides 216

OK the Triglycerides are high, the HDL is off a bit. Dunno what the testosterone means.

And now:

Blood work of Apr 19, 2008:

Total Cholesterol 180
HDL 55
LDL 109
Ratio 3.3
Triglycerides 83

Well that's a bit of a head scratcher. I think the recent Triglycerides of 216 is dubious.

But the larger point is that I am eating the same diet as when I got fat, and have controlled the serum lipids by exercise and more recently niacin.

I certainly believe that exercise controls my cholesterol. There is always a lot of genetics which means what works for one person may not work for another, so I suppose everyone has to figure out what works for them.

It is recognized that other things - perhaps C-reactive protein - may be even better at measuring risk, but that doesn't mean cholesterol tells you nothing about heart disease risk.

From what I've read or heard, I also think the C-reactive protein is a big reason for plaque build up. The more inflamation your body has, the more C-reactive protein you have. Probably partly why some people with high cholesterol don't have heart attacks and why some people with low cholesterol do. I think inflamation can irritate the walls of the artery causing cholesterol to stick to it, as the cholesterol gathers around the inflamation. If you have high cholesterol but healthy arteries without inflamation the cholesterol won't stick to the artery walls. I think this is related to why gum disease is related to heart attacks.

From what I've read or heard, I also think the C-reactive protein is a big reason for plaque build up. The more inflamation your body has, the more C-reactive protein you have. Probably partly why some people with high cholesterol don't have heart attacks and why some people with low cholesterol do. I think inflamation can irritate the walls of the artery causing cholesterol to stick to it, as the cholesterol gathers around the inflamation. If you have high cholesterol but healthy arteries without inflamation the cholesterol won't stick to the artery walls. I think this is related to why gum disease is related to heart attacks.

They are also finding out that LDL is made up of at least two different types of LDL. Large and small LDL. Large is fairly benign, while small LDL particles are more atheroscleroticly damaging.

They are also finding out that LDL is made up of at least two different types of LDL. Large and small LDL. Large is fairly benign, while small LDL particles are more atheroscleroticly damaging.

Yep, you're referring to the VLDL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLDL) and Lp(a) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoprotein%28a%29), both of which have an effect on CHD.

One way to think of it is to imagine a bunch of rocks, of different sizes falling through a passage. The bigger ones are most likely to fall all the way through, where as the small dust-like particles are most likely to stick to the walls on the way down.

I had my cholesterol tested again on Monday, and I have some GREAT news! It's been approximately 1.5 months between tests and I have not been taking any medication for Cholesterol. I have changed my diet (still kicking strong), and began exercising.

Total Cholesterol
Before: 442
Current: 328

LDL

Before: 329
Current: 240


HDL

Before: 45
Current: 41


So I dropped a total of 114 points of my total, and 89 of my LDL. My doctor was pretty amazed, he said that he has never seen it drop that fast.

:claphigh::claphigh::claphigh::claphigh::claphigh: