I have an old shoulder injury from back when I thought it would be cool to lift for max every time I bench pressed. Decided to go for 300, got it halfway up, something popped. Anyway, that was years ago and now that I am back training, the pain is starting to rear its head again. It only hurts during military presses. I can do front and side raises, shrugs, upright rows without pain. I can do military presses, but only with very light weight.

Does anyone have any suggestions on an exercise to try to replace the military presses. Both barbell and DB presses cause the pain. Oddly enough though as soon as I am done, the pain goes away.

Thanks for any advice.

JB

Wouldn't hurt to see a doctor. Shoulder pains are not something to ignore.

I had a similar injury. I got mine during a car accident. I pulled my right arm out of the shoulder socket from clinching the steering wheel...
It took months and months of stretching and rehab to get my shoulders healthy enough to execute power movements like the military press, bench press, and even deadlifts for that matter.

Here is what the docs had me do:
For rehab (early on for getting range of motion back. VERY light weight. We started with no added weight, just my hands...):
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBLyingExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBUprightExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/CBSeatedExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html

For bringing the strength back: (Slowly increase the weight over the weeks)
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBLateralRaise.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBUprightRow.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidPosterior/DBLyingRearDeltRow.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Supraspinatus/DBFrontLateralRaise.html

And when you can, start incorporating the other lifts.
BUT ALWAYS SPEND TIME STRETCHING.
It has been a long time and mine is still not 100% and may never be. I sometimes still aggrivate it just by sleeping on my right side...

:gl:

Try to fix the problem instead of training around it.

I had a similar injury. I got mine during a car accident. I pulled my right arm out of the shoulder socket from clinching the steering wheel...
It took months and months of stretching and rehab to get my shoulders healthy enough to execute power movements like the military press, bench press, and even deadlifts for that matter.

Here is what the docs had me do:
For rehab (early on for getting range of motion back. VERY light weight. We started with no added weight, just my hands...):
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBLyingExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBUprightExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/CBSeatedExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html

For bringing the strength back: (Slowly increase the weight over the weeks)
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBLateralRaise.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBUprightRow.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidPosterior/DBLyingRearDeltRow.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Supraspinatus/DBFrontLateralRaise.html

And when you can, start incorporating the other lifts.
BUT ALWAYS SPEND TIME STRETCHING.
It has been a long time and mine is still not 100% and may never be. I sometimes still aggrivate it just by sleeping on my right side...

:gl:


This is pretty close to the advice I would give. The only exception is that I would ditch the upright rows (those can exacerbate shoulder problems, and even create new ones), and, I would probably focus exclusively on the external rotators (ditch the internal rotator exercise).

Also, I would make sure that your horizontal rowing matches or exceeds your upper body pushing exercises in terms of overall training volume.

I would ditch the upright rows (those can exacerbate shoulder problems, and even create new ones), and, I would probably focus exclusively on the external rotators (ditch the internal rotator exercise).

Also, I would make sure that your horizontal rowing matches or exceeds your upper body pushing exercises in terms of overall training volume.

I agree except for the part about not doing the internal rotations. Why not do internal rotations?

BUT ALWAYS SPEND TIME STRETCHING.

Was this recent medical advice? Normally stretching is out of favor at the moment.

Was this recent medical advice? Normally stretching is out of favor at the moment.

I actually greatly improved my shoulders partially by increasing ROM. IMO, some of that improvement involved stretching.

I'm with you on a lot of stretching, but if you've got something limiting the ROM and compromising the joint, that may actually be a good use of both dynamic and static stretching.

I agree except for the part about not doing the internal rotations. Why not do internal rotations?

Because one problem that leads to shoulder injuries is an imbalance between the internal and external rotators...with the internals being overly strong relative to the externals (this is also a big problem with swimmers). The fact that he injured his shoulder while doing bench presses seems telling -- which is why I would recommend lots of horizontal pulling, and lots of external rotator work. His internals are likely too strong (relatively speaking) as it is.

Also, don't forget to work on thoratic mobility (upper back) and scapular control. IMO and IME, those are often times more important for keeping the shoulder working properly than rotator stuff. If the shoulder is not in the proper position in the first place, it doesn't matter how strong the rotators are.

Because one problem that leads to shoulder injuries is an imbalance between the internal and external rotators...with the internals being overly strong relative to the externals

Internal rotations are still part of the Jobe exercises (http://www.asmi.org/SportsMed/throwing/thrower10.html). I would keep them.

Was this recent medical advice? Normally stretching is out of favor at the moment.

do you stretch at all? this question includes stretching outside of exercising.

The reason I ask is because general agility is something you develop, usually from stretching (if there is a better way, please enlighten me). You seem to be the type of guy who likes to be generally physically fit and agility, in my opinion, is part of one's overall fitness.

do you stretch at all? this question includes stretching outside of exercising.

The reason I ask is because general agility is something you develop, usually from stretching (if there is a better way, please enlighten me). You seem to be the type of guy who likes to be generally physically fit and agility, in my opinion, is part of one's overall fitness.

You can get the majority of your flexibility through a combination of full ROM resistance work with some dynamic mobility work. Static stretching IMO might help with some disfunctions or injury recovery in some cases, but isn't necessary just to increase functional flexibility in a lot of areas.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll try the exercises posted and hope for the best.

You can get the majority of your flexibility through a combination of full ROM resistance work with some dynamic mobility work. Static stretching IMO might help with some disfunctions or injury recovery in some cases, but isn't necessary just to increase functional flexibility in a lot of areas.

sorry, I didn't see the thread over in the newbie forums... I'll ask my follow up to this over there.

If you have an overly tight muscle that is preventing other muscles from working properly, like say tight hip flexors screwing up your back and glutes, isn't it worth doing static stretching on them?

I'd ditch the front raises as well as the upright rows. Both can cause more problems.
For the lateral raise, scapula control is particularly important. It shouldn't move upwards. If it does, you are cheating and using your traps. You are trying to target your subscapularis. Look in the mirror, and when you raise the weight up to nipple height, your shoulder should not have moved at all. Get someone to place their finger at the bottom point of your scapula so you can feel for yourself if it moves.

Mannishboy, I forgot, were you the guy who posted the shoulder ROM exercise with the towel or broomstick rotating over the head and back again? I did that for awhile, thought it was ace, although at the time I was probably pushing myself too fast. Also I think I have medial epicondylosis on my left side, which was aggravated by it and by lots of other rotator cuff exercises. Real bummer!

do you stretch at all?

No.

The one exceptional stretch that I tried a few months ago was to stretch the hip flexors in preparation for squatting. It made no difference, so I concluded my hip flexors were not tight enough to be a problem. So now I don't stretch anything.

If you have an overly tight muscle that is preventing other muscles from working properly, like say tight hip flexors screwing up your back and glutes, isn't it worth doing static stretching on them?

As far as I know the only muscle for which this is recommended is the exceptional case that you mention - stretching the hip flexors before you squat. I am not aware of any other cases like it, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

I'd ditch the front raises as well as the upright rows. Both can cause more problems.

I knew about the upright rows. What's wrong with front raises?

Yeah sorry, don't no why I said front raises. Been a bit confused lately! Information overload at the moment. The supraspinatus is a shoulder abductor more so than a flexor, so I'd say it's the muscle working with the deltoids in the lateral raise, but not so much in the front raise.

With any of the raises though, your shoulder girdle should not move until your arm gets to almost 90 degrees or you could develop problems. The exception is if you're a professional bodybuilder. In that case you are compromising functional stability of the shoulder.

For stretches, I have a tight infraspinatus and subscapularis. I'm with you that stretching is out of favour, that's why I'm so confused. When an expert in physiotherapy tells me one thing, and it looks so logical....I'm so easily swayed! :)
At the moment to do the stretch I would lie down supine, with my shoulder at 90 degrees to the body elbow bent so my hand is sticking up into the air. With my other hand I'd hold my shoulder down and then let the hand in the air drop to the floor below me for infraspinatus stretch, or above me for subscapularis stretch. I'd do postisometric contractions to lengthen the muscle. Basically I'd hold a can of beans, and do a small contraction in the opposite direction of the stretch for 10 seconds, then relax and let the hand fall. Repeating a few times, and eventually my hand will reach the floor as it should do.

What do you think of this? Or would you make it more active. i.e. using a light weight do rotations back and forth, trying to increase the range of movement each time.

For stretches, I have a tight infraspinatus and subscapularis. I'm with you that stretching is out of favour, that's why I'm so confused. When an expert in physiotherapy tells me one thing, and it looks so logical....I'm so easily swayed! :)

Whenever someone is an expert in this stuff, you can always ask what they think of specific works in the literature. In this case, I would ask that person what they think about some of the "stretching is bad" papers. I don't have time to search them up right now but I have posted them in JSF before several times. Experts must stay current with the literature, but not all of them do. They don't actually have to agree with it all, but the do have to know about it and have an opinion on the work.

Mannishboy, I forgot, were you the guy who posted the shoulder ROM exercise with the towel or broomstick rotating over the head and back again? I did that for awhile, thought it was ace, although at the time I was probably pushing myself too fast. Also I think I have medial epicondylosis on my left side, which was aggravated by it and by lots of other rotator cuff exercises. Real bummer!

That's been posted around here a few times, so I'm not sure if you saw my post or someone elses.

I use that as a dynamic warmup for any upper body work to this day. It's often called "shoulder dislocates".


I do think for some joint issues where ROM is compromised, some static stretching can help. Not necessarily before lifting, though. I think before lifting dynamic work can be done (like the dislocates). But I don't find much benefit myself from static stretching prior to lifting, and it has been shown to decrease strength without the benefit of reductions in injuries from what I've read.

Shoulders and hips are places a lot of us need work. With our PC work during the day and over reliance on the bench press, a lot of people have tight chests in addition to muscular imbalances. I don't think its a bad idea to stretch the pecs to allow the shoulders proper ROM and positioning.

But Zen's read a lot more papers than I have. I'm with him on the pre-workout static stuff, but I've relied on some stretching and other things probably even more important to improve my shoulders. I and my ortho suspect I have a tear, but at this point after months of work, I think I'm functional enough with no pain to not worry about it too much right now.