I'm 6'3, 172lbs, have fairly long arms and aren't particularly strong. Thus, pull ups are difficult for me. My new work out has a day where I've included 3x8 pull ups. Previously I've used a resistance band to take some of the weight off and even then could only do 4x6.

My question is as I'm about to start a strength cycle shall I continue with the band and when I can manage 3x8 ditch and work up to 3x8 without it or just ditch it now and see how far I get?

I'm not even entirely sure how much assistance it gives me.

What's the overall routine?

In all likelihood, I would probably use the band in order to reach the goal of 3x8 pull-ups. Then, I would attach weight to myself, increasing resistance while still using the band, in order to stay at the recommended number of reps until I was strong enough to do 3x8 without the band at all. Alternatively and less optimally, I would use the band in order to reach the goal of 3x8 pull-ups and then continue to progress by reps until I was strong enough to perform 3x8 without the band's assistance.

Unless the band is offering very little assistance, I would not use it to reach a 3x8 assisted and then immediately get rid of it, increasing resistance to bodyweight and consequently dropping the overall volume. 3x8 isn't a classic strength building parameter, so I would think there's a reason a strength cycle calls for using it instead of lower reps. As such, I would maintain volume or, going along with the higher rep scheme, allow it to increase irrespective of resistance.

What's the overall routine?

Regardless, I would probably use the band in order to reach the goal of 3x8 pull-ups. Then, I would attach weight to myself, increasing resistance while still using the band, in order to stay at the recommended number of reps until I was strong enough to do 3x8 without the band at all. Alternatively, I would use the band in order to reach the goal of 3x8 pull-ups and then continue to progress by reps until I was strong enough to perform 3x8 without the band's assistance.

Unless the band is offering very little assistance, I would not use it to reach a 3x8 assisted and then immediately get rid of it, increasing resistance to bodyweight and consequently dropping the overall volume.

The overall routine is this one:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Except I'm adding the pull ups to Wednesday instead of the sit ups.

What you say makes sense. I guess what I need to do is work out how many more pulls I can do with the band than I can with out. Would it even be worth using a different grip? I know I can do more with a semi or supinated grips.

How many can you do with good form in a single set, unassisted? If you can't do more than 4, try 10x2, unassisted, with your best form for a few weeks. If you can do between 4 and 10, try 6x4 for a few weeks. If you can do more than 10, then do as many as you can, rest 60 seconds, and do as many as you can again and so on until you reach 30. Once you can do thirty in one set, add weight. With the endurance you develope that way, you'll build muscle faster when you add weight.

These are all meant for twice a week workouts.

pullups will be hard for any build of a man, at their current bodyweight and 3x8 sets will be difficult to acheive in the purest form, but scrap the bands and just do pure pullups andyou will increase your reps gradually and get stronger.

Another tip is to increase your pushups as this will help you increase your pullups, and also do a few lat pulldowns to let your lats take some of the hits, that will also increase your power and strenght in the excercise.

I would say theres no two ways about it, Your back must be strong to perform this exercises with correct form. Try Lat-Pulldowns, Almost to your body weight, then try and execute a 8-10 Reps per set, then gradually up the weight, The shock your muscles by doing assisted pullups a little lighter.

The overall routine is this one:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Except I'm adding the pull ups to Wednesday instead of the sit ups.

What you say makes sense. I guess what I need to do is work out how many more pulls I can do with the band than I can with out. Would it even be worth using a different grip? I know I can do more with a semi or supinated grips.
On that routine, taking cues from Friday's assistance work, sets of 3x5-8 would be appropriate. I'd still go with the first option I suggested though, but staying within 5-8 reps, instead of at exactly 8 reps.

On that routine, taking cues from Friday's assistance work, sets of 3x5-8 would be appropriate. I'd still go with the first option I suggested though, but staying within 5-8 reps, instead of at exactly 8 reps.

So keep adding weight once I can manage 8 reps assisted until I can get 5 reps unassisted?

So keep adding weight once I can manage 8 reps assisted until I can get 5 reps unassisted?
Yes.

Yes.

Sounds good to me. Thanks for the advice.

You might try slow 6 sec negative pull up or chins. Where you use a stool, box or bench to allow you to start at the bar and lower yourself very slowly then use stool to get you back to bar for next rep. When you can do 12 reps. add weight. every week or so try unassisted pulllups.

You might try slow 6 sec negative pull up or chins. Where you use a stool, box or bench to allow you to start at the bar and lower yourself very slowly then use stool to get you back to bar for next rep. When you can do 12 reps. add weight. every week or so try unassisted pulllups.

I used to be a huge fan of doing negatives for pull-ups. Back in the summer of 2003 I couldn't do a single pull-up, and without really knowing what I was doing I started performing "negatives" (I thought the invention was mine at the time, haha). I was massively sore after the first couple workouts (I had basically zero training background) but within a couple of weeks I could do a full repetition. So for a few years I recommended the negatives to everyone.

But more recently, I've changed my mind a bit. I've worked with 3 different young women to help them develop a pull-up and at first I had all of them doing a lot of negatives because that's what I knew. They didn't really start making progress, though, until I switched them over to doing more assisted pull-ups or using the lat pull-down machine where they could perform the concentric movement and try adding a rep or a few pounds each time.

That said, I'm currently trying to use some negatives to aid the training of my overhead press. I haven't been feeling much stimulus from this lift lately, so I've started taking about 110% of my max, doing a push-press, and then lowering the weight back down slowly.

Tim

I used to be a huge fan of doing negatives for pull-ups. Back in the summer of 2003 I couldn't do a single pull-up, and without really knowing what I was doing I started performing "negatives" (I thought the invention was mine at the time, haha). I was massively sore after the first couple workouts (I had basically zero training background) but within a couple of weeks I could do a full repetition. So for a few years I recommended the negatives to everyone.

But more recently, I've changed my mind a bit. I've worked with 3 different young women to help them develop a pull-up and at first I had all of them doing a lot of negatives because that's what I knew. They didn't really start making progress, though, until I switched them over to doing more assisted pull-ups or using the lat pull-down machine where they could perform the concentric movement and try adding a rep or a few pounds each time.

That said, I'm currently trying to use some negatives to aid the training of my overhead press. I haven't been feeling much stimulus from this lift lately, so I've started taking about 110% of my max, doing a push-press, and then lowering the weight back down slowly.

Tim

You are about 30-40% stronger on negatives. That is why I threw in weight added when 12 is reached and slowed reps. You are seeing this with your press experiment. always do negatives with about 30% more then you would expect to be able do in positive.

You are about 30-40% stronger on negatives. That is why I threw in weight added when 12 is reached and slowed reps. You are seeing this with your press experiment. always do negatives with about 30% more then you would expect to be able do in positive.
I wouldn't say always do them with 130%. You will still benefit from negatives even at 100% and thereabouts as long as you're progressive about them. Progressive overload applies just as well in the eccentric portion of the lift as it does in the concentric.

Can someone explain a 'negative' to me?

Can someone explain a 'negative' to me?

I can't put it into words too clearly so I'll give an example. The negative of a pullup is when you lower yourself from the bar, the negative of a bench press is lowering the bar down to your chest, the negative of a shoulder press is lowering the bar down to the start position. Think of the opposite of the push/pull movement of the lift.

I can't put it into words too clearly so I'll give an example. The negative of a pullup is when you lower yourself from the bar, the negative of a bench press is lowering the bar down to your chest, the negative of a shoulder press is lowering the bar down to the start position. Think of the opposite of the push/pull movement of the lift.

The point is that you are still pulling up as hard as you can, but you aren't strong enough so you are moving in the wrong direction.

Tim

i hope your doing your pullups with a proper deadhang at the bottom, meaning you should let all flexing go
and totally hang out at bottom.

most people dont do this and that actually makes the exercise FAR more difficult.

i hope your doing your pullups with a proper deadhang at the bottom, meaning you should let all flexing go
and totally hang out at bottom.

most people dont do this and that actually makes the exercise FAR more difficult.

How do you mean dude, I do alot of pullups and feel that what you are saying may be benificial so could you explain with a picture of summat what you mean?

thanks

i hope your doing your pullups with a proper deadhang at the bottom, meaning you should let all flexing go
and totally hang out at bottom.

most people dont do this and that actually makes the exercise FAR more difficult.

Yeah, I am.

I might go with chin ups for the time being as I can manage 8 of those with proper form unassisted, which I was quite stoked about. I'll see later as it's pull day today.

How do you mean dude, I do alot of pullups and feel that what you are saying may be benificial so could you explain with a picture of summat what you mean?

thanks

uhm .. well as i said, at the bottom position many people do not really allow their bodys to simply hang
many keep tension up in the lats/biceps and this makes the exercise a lot easier.

its really simple to do, you just want to be in the "dead hang" position when you start every rep,
that means the only thing flexed at the bottom are your hands hoding onto the bars
EVERYTHING ELSE is TOTALLY unflexed and relaxed.

you barely ever see anyone do proper chinup/pullups and the way i described is the only proper way.
everything else is poor form and cheating.

Can someone explain a 'negative' to me?
1) A negative is performing the eccentric portion of a lift, where the target muscle lengthens under tension, usually with a load that is as larger or larger than your concentric max. The body is generally about 130-140% stronger on the eccentric portion of a movement than it is on the concentric -- though it may take a few sessions to fully train that capability.

2) A negative is merely the eccentric portion of a lift, while a positive is the concentric. This is a pretty loose use of the term, but it shows up with good frequency.

i hope your doing your pullups with a proper deadhang at the bottom, meaning you should let all flexing go
and totally hang out at bottom.

most people dont do this and that actually makes the exercise FAR more difficult.

uhm .. well as i said, at the bottom position many people do not really allow their bodys to simply hang
many keep tension up in the lats/biceps and this makes the exercise a lot easier.

its really simple to do, you just want to be in the "dead hang" position when you start every rep,
that means the only thing flexed at the bottom are your hands hoding onto the bars
EVERYTHING ELSE is TOTALLY unflexed and relaxed.

you barely ever see anyone do proper chinup/pullups and the way i described is the only proper way.
everything else is poor form and cheating.

Everything else is totally unflexed and relaxed... except your shoulders. Keep them tense/contracted. If not, that's a phenomenal way to get a shoulder separation and pretty much ruin your shoulders for life.

How do you mean dude, I do alot of pullups and feel that what you are saying may be benificial so could you explain with a picture of summat what you mean?

Your elbows should lock out straight at the bottom of every repetition.

Most of the people that I see doing "pull-ups" at the gym never go any lower than this guy...

http://www.beloblog.com/KGW_Blogs/afghanistan/Combat%20PT,%20pull%20ups,%2014%20March%202006.JPE G

Tim

Well, I just had my workout with the pullups. I thought I'd try and see how many I could do unassisted. As it happens I managed 6/6/5. So it looks like I'm ok just to go like that from now on.

Thanks for all your sound advice though. :tu:

you barely ever see anyone do proper chinup/pullups and the way i described is the only proper way.
everything else is poor form and cheating.

uhhhh, no. you are just talking about your favorite type of pullup. that's like saying stiff legged deads are the only way to deadlift. i prefer kipping pullups myself and i can do 25 dead hangs if I cared to (which i don't). here's some info on kipping pullups:

"Short version: Kipping allows more work to be done in less time, thus increasing power output. It is also a full-body coordination movement when performed correctly, which applies more functionally to real-life application of pulling skills. Last, but not least, the hip motion of an effective kip mirrors the motion of the olympic lifts/kettlebell swings, adding to it's function as a posterior-chain developer." -Jesse Woody

in depth discussion about the kipping pullup: http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=5010

how to: http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/eva-on-kipping.wmv

I agree with the comments on kipping pull-ups. I have found a mix of kipping and dead-hang pull-ups to be effective. They complement each other just like push-press and strict military press.

Kipping pull-ups are still full range of motion - i.e. elbows lock out.

Tim

Not to say kipping pull-ups don't have a place in a routine, but I take issue with most of that quote.

Begin rant...

Kipping allows more work to be done in less time, thus increasing power output.
Okay, and that creates a perfectly legitimate use for this exercise -- a use of which, as that thread (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=5010) points out ad nauseum, CrossFit certainly wants to take advantage.

However...

It is also a full-body coordination movement when performed correctly, which applies more functionally to real-life application of pulling skills.
What's the "real life" application of a pull-up? I thought it was mainly scaling walls or climbing ropes. In the former, I'm pretty sure the wall gets in the way of the kip and, in the latter, you'll usually want to keep the rope securely pinched between your feet. If I end up hanging on a rope somewhere, you can be sure that I'm going to do everything possible to maximize my safety and preserve my strength -- kipping my way up the rope is not the way to do that.

Last, but not least, the hip motion of an effective kip mirrors the motion of the olympic lifts/kettlebell swings, adding to it's function as a posterior-chain developer.
The hip motion of an Olympic pull or kettlebell swing is the only thing that it mirrors -- the "closing" and "opening" of a joint. It doesn't coordinate with either the knees or ankles in the same way that either of those lifts do. Strong hip extension is important to those lifts and, more broadly, to jumping and sprinting, but it's important because it's coordinated with the other joints of the legs. When the benefits of these movements is mentioned, it's triple, not single, extension that is named. So, yeah, you can say that it mirrors the hip motion of these lifts, but it also "mirrors" pretty much any instance of a movement where you extend the hips. Based on that, I don't find it particularly relevant to refer to those two specific lifts, though referring to the Olympic lifts does tend to have a nice legitimizing effect.

As for being a posterior chain developer, I'm assuming that has something to do with strength or mass. It's pretty well accepted that mainly to develop either you need to use moderate to heavy loads in comparison to your maximal strength while working progressively. What's the load in a kipping pull-up? The load is your legs. Now granted, if you don't spend too much in the gym, you might find the load of your legs pretty heavy for your posterior chain, but, otherwise, I like to think they're not going to offer very much of a challenge.

All that time, I thought that chins gave you a v-shape that made you look good in real life.:cool:

i find it really interesting how many different views on pullups are being exchanged in this thread !!!

for me no matter what the most challenge lies in the deadhang and if i am not mistaken
it recruits far more fibers than any of those partial pulls.

the kipping pullup .. i dont know, im not comparing it to SLDL or anything hell no,
but if i can do like 12 proper form dead hang pulls and am fried but even after doing them can still
bang out 20 "kipping pullups" this really makes me think what may be more efficient/challenging .,.

the kipping pullup .. i dont know, im not comparing it to SLDL or anything hell no,
but if i can do like 12 proper form dead hang pulls and am fried but even after doing them can still
bang out 20 "kipping pullups" this really makes me think what may be more efficient/challenging .,.

Again, think of it like you would think of a push-press or a jerk.

I can strict press 130 lbs but I can jerk, well, I'm not sure how much but it's significantly more. Does this mean that the jerk isn't a worthwhile exercise?

I think there is a lot of value to these dynamic movements. Develop a good kipping pull-up and then tell me that they aren't stimulating for your lats and shoulders, albeit in a different way from the dead-hangs.

I used to be a non-believer as well. Now I use them both.

Tim

What's the "real life" application of a pull-up? I thought it was mainly scaling walls or climbing ropes. In the former, I'm pretty sure the wall gets in the way of the kip and, in the latter, you'll usually want to keep the rope securely pinched between your feet. If I end up hanging on a rope somewhere, you can be sure that I'm going to do everything possible to maximize my safety and preserve my strength -- kipping my way up the rope is not the way to do that.
this is the only part of what you wrote that I can really comment on as I didn't write the quote myself and I'm not really into the technical side of either the quote or physiology in general.

Anyway, the pull up is only the precursor to a muscle up in terms of functionality. I can't think of even 1 use of only doing a pull up to get your head above something unless maybe your about to drown in who knows what, but buoyancy will help you out there anyway. that said, if you were to do a muscle up, it isn't definite that you would be doing it against a shear surface like a wall... I can see many uses of it other than getting past an obstacle:

Perhaps your goal is to climb on something via a pipe in which case a kipping pull up would be ideal. What if I wanted to climb onto a goal post? Or a diving board from beneath? Or on top of a basketball hoop? Those activities considered, the kipping portion of a muscle up is probably the safest part of the climb. Perhaps you are hanging off a tree limb and need to get on top of it? I could go on, but I think you get my point. I agree with what you said for your examples given but I disagree when you take into account the 189042938728347 possible movements you have the opportunity to perform in your lifetime. Safety is a concern but the fact that the move is being practiced (ad nauseum) in the gym should help me prepare myself should I ever need to use it.

this is the only part of what you wrote that I can really comment on as I didn't write the quote myself and I'm not really into the technical side of either the quote or physiology in general.
Yeah, I've seen that quote before and had been thinking about it for a while. I fully realized you didn't write it. :)

Anyway, the pull up is only the precursor to a muscle up in terms of functionality. I can't think of even 1 use of only doing a pull up to get your head above something unless maybe your about to drown in who knows what, but buoyancy will help you out there anyway. that said, if you were to do a muscle up, it isn't definite that you would be doing it against a shear surface like a wall... I can see many uses of it other than getting past an obstacle:

Perhaps your goal is to climb on something via a pipe in which case a kipping pull up would be ideal. What if I wanted to climb onto a goal post? Or a diving board from beneath? Or on top of a basketball hoop? Those activities considered, the kipping portion of a muscle up is probably the safest part of the climb. Perhaps you are hanging off a tree limb and need to get on top of it? I could go on, but I think you get my point. I agree with what you said for your examples given but I disagree when you take into account the 189042938728347 possible movements you have the opportunity to perform in your lifetime. Safety is a concern but the fact that the move is being practiced (ad nauseum) in the gym should help me prepare myself should I ever need to use it.
Performing a muscle-up on a fixed surface is largely about having sufficient strength and setting a good false grip. It's about getting the leverage to make the transition between pull-up and dip. The kip is incidental to it, as you can perform them with or without it.

For most of those objects that you listed, you're dealing with something that is not shaped like the relatively thin bar you train on in the gym. That bar, in the scheme of things, is pretty much optimal to perform a muscle-up on. That most objects are not shaped like it often makes it pretty hard to get the right leverage to get yourself on top.

For tree branches, goal posts, and other like objects, the easiest and safest way to overcome the obstacle is to swing one leg up because these objects are relatively thick. It's pretty hard to do a muscle-up when you can barely grasp the object (or not grasp it at all). When I say thick, I'm thinking about thicker than a fat bar, which most people can still get their hands around pretty well. If you try a pull-up on a thick tree branch, you'll find that it's very tough to get your hand sufficiently "over" it to perform a pull-up that doesn't send your body wrapping underneath it, let alone a muscle-up. Thick also means that you can "sit" on them pretty well, which gives a valid reason for wanting to get on top of them in the first place.

On the other side of the spectrum, for objects that are thin, initially, I'm not sure why you'd want to get on top of them. It isn't easy to sit on them and, consequently, it tends to be unsafe. I say unsafe as compared to the safety of laying on them (if you truly do need to get on top). If you want to lay on a bar, the easiest way to get to that position is to merely "hug" the object between the legs and arms and twist the body around it. Using a hug is also the best and fastest way to traverse a long object as well (e.g. a horizontal rope or thin pipe).

As for a flat surface, such as a diving board, have you ever tried getting on a dive board from hanging below it? It's damn hard. When I swam, we used to play at it all the time. The leverage is horrible on the wrist. The fingers lie flat against the top surface and it's largely a static frictional force in proportion to your ability to squeeze the board that's keeping your hands from slipping off. If you try to kip yourself on top of the board, more than likely, you exceed that static coefficient of friction (or you kip incorrectly pulling away from the board), your hands comes sliding right off, and you fall. If you try to muscle up without kipping or barely kipping, that horrible leverage really makes things hard. So, you find that the best way to get on top of it is pretty much a pull-up followed by swinging one elbow over at a time and clambering up. Also, keep in mind that a diving board tends to have a pretty rough surface so that the divers don't slip; a lot of similar flat, thin surfaces out "in the wild" are likely going to be less accommodating.

Thus, I contend that, for the set of all objects out in free space as you've described that you care to come up with, at best, you are going to have methods more optimal to use than a kip and, at worse, it is going to be plain dangerous to use one. Moreover, I contend that the vast majority of these free objects are going to fall into one of the above categories. So, on that basis, I would not say the muscle-up is more functional than a pull-up. I think it's a great exercise, but you certainly won't find me turning to it first out in the real world.

BTW, I did a lot of tree and building climbing for lack of better things to do during high school (which was just a few years back -- I went to boarding school, so my friends and I had to amuse ourselves somehow). I was in excellent shape at the time, dabbled in some basic gymnastics, and had a pretty good weighted pull-up to boot, so the opinions I've expressed here are just the kind of picture I've formed about climbing and scaling outside the gym based on my experiences. Obviously, I think that picture is pretty accurate.

As well, keep in mind that I have nothing against the kipping pull-up. I think it's a fine exercise, but, as I've said and as was the purpose of these posts, I don't think it's any more of a functional movement than the pull-up in terms of its application in the "real world" and I don't think it's a good "posterior chain developer."

// "Functional" is always a can o' worms.

I used to be a huge fan of doing negatives for pull-ups. Back in the summer of 2003 I couldn't do a single pull-up, and without really knowing what I was doing I started performing "negatives" (I thought the invention was mine at the time, haha). I was massively sore after the first couple workouts (I had basically zero training background) but within a couple of weeks I could do a full repetition. So for a few years I recommended the negatives to everyone.

But more recently, I've changed my mind a bit. I've worked with 3 different young women to help them develop a pull-up and at first I had all of them doing a lot of negatives because that's what I knew. They didn't really start making progress, though, until I switched them over to doing more assisted pull-ups or using the lat pull-down machine where they could perform the concentric movement and try adding a rep or a few pounds each time.

That said, I'm currently trying to use some negatives to aid the training of my overhead press. I haven't been feeling much stimulus from this lift lately, so I've started taking about 110% of my max, doing a push-press, and then lowering the weight back down slowly.

Tim
Hi, thanks for the tip. I'm curious as to how many pullups you were able to get through your training(keep me motivated;), I'm in the 0-2 reps category for strength right now, trying to get to 10 by doing lat pull-downs and push-ups as well...

Imran

you can pick apart any real life movement and replace it with another. i was merely coming up with possible ways you might want to do a kipping pull up/muscle up, it wasn't meant to be dissected to the point of being unrecognizable but I realize now that posting anything on the forums is subject to that.

how about this: you want to do muscle ups so you can look cool. you can do more with a kipping pull up and without a false grip thanks to the momentum. dissect that all you want.

i prefer kipping pull ups when doing muscle ups.

you can pick apart any real life movement and replace it with another. i was merely coming up with possible ways you might want to do a kipping pull up/muscle up, it wasn't meant to be dissected to the point of being unrecognizable but I realize now that posting anything on the forums is subject to that.

how about this: you want to do muscle ups so you can look cool. you can do more with a kipping pull up and without a false grip thanks to the momentum. dissect that all you want.

i prefer kipping pull ups when doing muscle ups.
Sorry. I probably went overboard. Right now, my "job" away from the forums is basically to dissect things, intensely analyze, and talk about them until exhaustion as thought exercises, so I sometimes I forget when to stop.

I just feel very strongly that neither kipping pull-ups nor muscle-ups have greater "function" than a pull-up, as I believe using either is often not the easiest or safest ways to move in the situations described. I value ease and safety because, respectively, I view climbing to be an overall strenuous exercise and the prospect of falling to be an extremely negative outcome. I don't think it's an issue of merely replacing any real life movement with another, but an issue of what is optimal to maximize ease and safety.

My reason for deemphasizing kipping in a muscle-up has to do with how I learned and think of the movement. The false grip and a smooth transition were the focal points of it during my brief gymnastics experience.

Thanks for putting up with me and good luck in your training. :tu:

I had no idea what kipping was. I went out and saw it on youtube.com. That was what we did in the 50s when we weren't strong enough to do chins or pullups. We used momentum, we kipped and didn't know it. It didn't work when we got to Junior High and the coaches made us do the real thing. :lol:

Hi, thanks for the tip. I'm curious as to how many pullups you were able to get through your training(keep me motivated;), I'm in the 0-2 reps category for strength right now, trying to get to 10 by doing lat pull-downs and push-ups as well...

Sure... when I started in August of 2003 I could do exactly 0. I would get in the dead-hang position and, well, just hang. So I started doing jumping negatives - 30 or 40 reps for a workout. Within 2 weeks I could do a full dead-hang pull-up.

I continued using the negatives until I could do about 4 full reps. Then in October or November of 2003 I switched over to using the assisted (Gravitron?) machine, just taking off 10 or 15 pounds.

Over the winter of 2003-2004 I would just make a point of doing 20 full repetitions every time I went to the gym - the number of sets didn't matter or anything, I just had to get 20 before I left. By the spring of 2004 I could do 8 or 9 perfect reps.

I stopped trying so hard to improve at that point, focusing on other things instead, until the early months of 2005. I got to 10-12 reps for the first time by doing multiple sets of about 80% of my max with a couple minutes of rest in between. I was stuck around 12 or 13 reps for a long time.

Then I gained some weight, and then I lost some weight, and then I peaked again in the summer of 2006 doing 16 reps. I attribute that increase mainly to the weight I lost as well as just testing my max once or twice a week.

Again I gained weight and lost it, and now I'm a little heavier than I was in the summer of 2006 but I'm stronger than ever. Since my bodyweight affects the number of reps so much, now I just care about my absolute pulling strength which is currently 235-240 pounds.

I think the key is to just train pull-ups like you would any other lift. Don't treat it any differently than you would treat your benchpress or your deadlift or whatever. There is nothing magical about how you train pull-ups just because you are pulling your bodyweight.

By the way, you can see a graph of my progress here...

http://people.bu.edu/timwalsh/pullups.txt

Tim

Thanks for the info, I was in the gym yesterday glad to find that with a few work outs I'm seeing progress getting out of the '0' category and can do 4 dead-hangs slowly...

One thing I notice is that even with ultra slow and controlled movement my knees automatically seem to go up, I am unable to let them hang. This seems to me to be my body preferring strong ab muscles for pulling, and my weaker back not able to keep the body straight or something. Its something I will focus on when doing the exercise, to try and keep the body straight and not lift the knees.
Anyone else have this?

Sure... when I started in August of 2003...
Tim

It's not a proper pull up presumably unless you get your full head and neck above the bar ?

You see guys doing "kipping pullups" whose forehead doesn't even reach the bar. I assume it's a good exercise if you're bringing yourself right up but not if you're barely even moving yourself enough to flex your forearms even a millimetre.

It's like the guys who put loads of weight on squats and bench presses to try and show off then bring the bar down about a quarter inch before raising it.