Hi all,

First, some background on my diet. I'm no stranger to dieting. I've done various forms of keto diets over the past eight years, to varying degrees of success. I think I've learned what I can from them, and have incorporated some of their benefits into my current outlook on eating.

At the end of August 2007 I was close to 190 lbs, which is the highest I've ever been (5'9", 175 cm). I do have really strong quads and calves from years of competition in fencing, and they have largely remained with me, so that does add to the weight. But I was clearly overweight and looking to fall back into the low 170 lbs at minimum (which I was at in summer 2006, a year before). On September 2/07, I was measured at 21% BF and 186 pounds.

My goal is to reduce as much as I possibly can, with no time deadline and no lower BF limit. I would be greatly pleased to even approach 10%. I've never had abs, and I would really like to have them, even if it's just once! That's my main goal, though I'll be happy to drop to anything below 14%. I don't think weight targets make sense, but without putting on muscle, hopefully I could drop to around 160 lbs, which would be another 13 or 14 pounds (of hopefully mostly fat).

So I started reducing carbs as much as possible without going overboard. I avoid rice and pasta and bread as much as I am able without developing a complex. I tend to eat out a lot and I don't see this changing too much in the near future, but I've managed to keep my eating-out to one meal a day (and I'll often eat only a half portion, turning one meal into two). I've also bought the protein shakes and low-carb bars and natural peanut butter and tuna (all staples from when I used to low carb). I do still cheat by eating the occasional shawarma, or vietnamese noodle soup, or something on a bed of white rice, but I keep portions as low as I can and I often only eat half (or less) of the refined carb that comes with it and throw the rest out.

Oh, and there's alcohol. I have cut it out as much as is socially possible. I don't drink at home anymore (which is tough because I have a huge scotch collection). I try to avoid having beers with my friends, unless we're actually at a bar. I am also dating again, and that unfortunately makes it ridiculous to refrain entirely from alcohol, so I do drink wine or beer or spirits, but on the days that I do, I try to create a more extreme caloric deficit to make up for it (though that does make me drunk a lot faster...)

Long story short, I'm down to about 173 lbs already. Granted the last 7 pounds have been accelerated due to emotional stress, but my dietary goal is to hit roughly around 1700 to 1800 calories per day, with as much protein as I can get, and with liberal fats (though I try to avoid saturated). My attempts to avoid carbs probably result in me getting about 40% of my calories from them, maybe a bit less. I do eat 2-3 apples a day, because I enjoy fruit more than vegetables (though I know I need to make more of an effort to eat the veggies at home as well as outside).

The rationale behind the fat is this (from years of experience): the more fat I eat, the fewer cravings I get, and the longer the feeling of satiety lasts. Eating really carby foods gives me massive hunger swings and promotes over-eating. The fat may contribute a lot to my caloric intake, but I feel it is justified in that it helps me feel much more stable and full over the course of the day, and less obsessed about food. Which is why I let myself have deep-fried tofu once or twice a week (though I do know the dangers of trans-fats).

Anyway... I have also been working out, and this is a first for me. My chest seems a lot bigger than it's ever been, and I generally like the way I look in the mirror, though I am far, far, far from having abs. I do weights 2-3 times/week at the YMCA, using the machines because I've never learned how to properly do free weights.

At the moment it's all the same pathetic routine, which is just incline press, this pec-fly contraption they have which is a lot more freeform than the ones I have used in the past (your arms extend straight out and you have a free range of motion to bring the grips together in front of you), and an isolated bicep machine and an isolated tricep one. That's only four things, and I do 3 sets of about 10 reps. Recently I've been doing the barbell things for my biceps, but don't know how to do anything more than that.

What I'd like to get from you guys is some suggestions on what I need to concentrate on for fat loss. I don't care about getting big, because I already look almost as large as I'd like. I'd just like to add more definition, and that probably comes from fat loss. I also want to add the kind of muscle or do the type of resistance training I need to give me that metabolic advantage to aid in my fat loss. I have heard isolated exercises are bad. Can I get benefit from using the "machines" or do I really have to do free weights?

The problem has always been not having a spotter. If you guys could recommend barbell exercises, that would be fantastic, as I could do those on my own. I just want to develop as much as I can to aid in my loss.

I am doing cardio (indoor soccer once a week, and aiming to do spinning (HIIT) twice a week). For LISS, I walk to and from work at least 2-3/week (one hour round trip, steady pace).

Would you recommend deadlifts and squats and such? My legs are already ok (huge quads and calves, though they they used to be better). I think my back is severely neglected, and my abs. Not sure what is needed for shoulders. Basically I wouldn't mind a really nicely defined upper body, but my main goal here is to add muscle mass to aid in my cutting.

I do not want to do "bulking."

Any tips appreciated greatly. And I can provide a lot more information if asked. Thanks!

long post and many issues and questions....

I'll address just one....

I have always had big legs. big thighs and calves. i've been doing squats and other big compound lifts and i'm fitting MUCH better into jeans which were previously too tight in the leg to wear comfortably... if anything doing squats has elevated my metabolism and helped me pack on muscle in other places other than my legs...

At the end of August 2007 I was close to 190 lbs, which is the highest I've ever been (5'9", 175 cm). I do have really strong quads and calves from years of competition in fencing, and they have largely remained with me, so that does add to the weight. But I was clearly overweight and looking to fall back into the low 170 lbs at minimum (which I was at in summer 2006, a year before). On September 2/07, I was measured at 21% BF and 186 pounds.

My goal is to reduce as much as I possibly can, with no time deadline and no lower BF limit.

I do weights 2-3 times/week at the YMCA, using the machines because I've never learned how to properly do free weights.

Would you recommend deadlifts and squats and such? My legs are already ok (huge quads and calves, though they they used to be better).

A: Well hell's bells another fencer! :tucool: What weapon?

B: Of course you have strong legs from fencing. And not just quads and calves. Unless you're really out of shape you have nasty abductors and adductors. You want to press this advantage. Big muscles give you more control over your physique.

C: Depending on what sort of program you were in, you may also have a high lactate threshold and VO2max. This will help a lot too. What sort of conditioning program did you have?

D: I would recommend all sorts of deadlifts and squats. Also lunges and step ups. In addition bench press and barbell rows, dips, pull-ups, pulldowns, pullovers. But yeah, first I would have you learn to squat and deadlift safely, and then heavy. Then single leg. As a fencer, a lot of stuff that other people find tricky or difficult should be quite simple for you.

E: If you really want to get lean more than anything else, and you already do strength exercise, then the nutrition is the key. The strength exercise makes it a lot easier, and gives you so much more control, but ultimately getting the nutrition dialed in is what will make you lean. Depending on what sort of athletic performance you are interested in, getting really lean may compromise it though.

I used to fence sabre. I would train 3 to 4 times per week, and compete usually at least twice a month. I always tried to do proper cross-training (with weights, and LISS cardio) but never managed to make it stick -- I was spending so much time training that it was really tough to work anything else in. Also, I think my nutrition was CRAP, because almost all of my training was 8 pm to 11 pm or so, and afterwards, I would just come home TOTALLY ravenous, overeat, and crash. (I know many other fencers like that too)

My lactic acid tolerance is probably better than most (in my legs at least). Not sure about V02 max, but I used to wear a HR monitor sometimes and during a fencing lesson I would easily hit 195, then drop down to about 140 during the easier bits. I remember my resting pulse was around 40-45 bpm at one point, which I think is good. I think it's around 60 now.

I went to the gym today and had a novice trainee kind of trainer explain the weights to me. Learned to do a lot of things, but no squats or deadlifts or lunges were involved. Except for this lunging thing where you take barbells in the hallway and lunge forward with alternating legs (the trailing leg is pointed forward which is where I feel it the most -- my leading leg is already totally used to the lunge). Should I try that with a long bar with low weights on it (like a 10 plate on either side?)

Most of what you described is foreign to me. I did a bent over row, and a row thing with a cable (for the upper back). I also used the assisted pullup thing where you set the weight to subtract from your body weight, and do a military pullup, or dips (for triceps?).

And the thing where you support yourself and let your legs hang, and then lift your knees up (or legs straight out) for your abs.

But any advice I can get here, or maybe even a link to a website that shows the major exercises and how to do them safely, would be great.

What weapon did you fence?

Update: I had another BF measurement today. This time they didn't use the electrode on the foot and the wrist like last time, so I'm not sure the numbers are comparable.

But on Sept. 2 I was 186 lbs and 21% BF.

Today on January 28, I am 174 lbs and 15.9% BF.

They used one of those Omron handheld things. I think I may buy one. 15.9% was obtained at the "normal" body type setting, and 15.0% with the "athletic" setting, so it may be somewhere in between. Took three measurements, always 15.9%.

How realistic is it to drop down to 10% in 2 months?

How realistic is it to drop down to 10% in 2 months?

Not very. Giving yourself a time frame to reach your goal that is anything other than generous is setting yourself up for failure. You'll get discouraged if you feel you're not making progress fast enough.

If you make your primary goal consistency, then your fat loss goals will happen on their own. Maybe sooner, maybe later, but keep with the consistency and you will get there.

Great job thus far! But that was a 5% BF drop in 4 months. The lower you get, the harder it gets. So another 6% in 2 months is extremely unlikely. If you want to see 10%, you're going to have to really clean up your diet, get really dedicated, and work really hard! It'll be worth it, though. Especially for you being back on the dating scene and all ;)

I used to fence sabre. I would train 3 to 4 times per week, and compete usually at least twice a month. I always tried to do proper cross-training (with weights, and LISS cardio) but never managed to make it stick -- I was spending so much time training that it was really tough to work anything else in. Also, I think my nutrition was CRAP, because almost all of my training was 8 pm to 11 pm or so, and afterwards, I would just come home TOTALLY ravenous, overeat, and crash. (I know many other fencers like that too)

OK the nutrition stuff sounds familiar. The big messages here will be that you want to focus more on heavy lifting and high intensity interval cardio and not so much the LISS. Your nutrition will have to support your training, and that's actually not that hard to do, but it's not really my department. There is some extremely good advice that is available here though.

My lactic acid tolerance is probably better than most (in my legs at least). Not sure about V02 max, but I used to wear a HR monitor sometimes and during a fencing lesson I would easily hit 195, then drop down to about 140 during the easier bits. I remember my resting pulse was around 40-45 bpm at one point, which I think is good. I think it's around 60 now.

OK Lactate threshold is actually systemic. You might be thinking that your legs could take a lot of punishment before they felt a burn - and for a fencer that is pretty much a given. But that is not the same as lactate threshold. Lactate threshold is roughly how high a heart rate can you sustain for 20 minutes or more.

I think you are thinking of strength endurance, which I do not doubt you have a lot of in your legs. And we will want to use that resource to move you right along in your weight training. Just the fact that you already understand the strength of your legs compared to other "mere mortals" is going to be an ace up your sleeve for a long time to come.

I went to the gym today and had a novice trainee kind of trainer explain the weights to me. Learned to do a lot of things, but no squats or deadlifts or lunges were involved. Except for this lunging thing where you take barbells in the hallway and lunge forward with alternating legs (the trailing leg is pointed forward which is where I feel it the most -- my leading leg is already totally used to the lunge). Should I try that with a long bar with low weights on it (like a 10 plate on either side?)

Yeah they aren't going to understand. They will not start you on squats or deadlifts because they don't have a clue what being a fencer means. Had you walked into a gym and asked me for advice, I would have checked out your footwork, and if it was at all decent, I would know that you were not kidding about being a fencer (sounds like you are not kidding about being a fencer) and we would be straight to the leg workout.

OK they offered you lunges (at least as weight lifters understand them). This is not a bad thing. Do them to make the trainer happy. You should be able to make them pretty and increase the load really fast. Do not forget what you should know from fencing - even though this kind of lunging seems kind of retarded. The lunge you are used to is tuned to an explosive horizontal movement, with no compromise in stability, which can provide a base from which you can recover in either direction. The thinking about fencing lunges is a foreign language to even experienced trainers.

A lift which will most suit you in this direction is the Bulgarian, also called the Bulgarian split squat, or by those who like to remind us that the lift was not invented by Bulgarians, the split squat with elevated back leg. I am quite sure that your trainer will not suggest these early on, but you can probably do them. I would suggest starting with dumbells that are not to heavy, and increasing the weight gradually. Yes, you will have quite a bit of capacity that you won't use at first, but you don't want an injury while you are learning how to do exercises propertly. Anyone suggests a quad extension machine or leg press? Tell them you would rather do Bulgarians.

And another principle of lifting worth knowing is that some lifts (like the Bulgarian I just mentioned) center on the front of the leg (so they are called quad-centric) and you don't want your quads to get too strong compared to your hamstrings, so you balance a quad centric exercise with one that centers on the posterior chain (roughly speaking the back of the leg and glutes, lower back). An excellent balance to the Bulgarian is the single stiff legged deadlift. Again, use dumbells and increase the load gradually. As a fencer, you will find these quite a bit easier than many other people do. Don't get crazy with the weight until you have a few weeks of experience.

The simplified lunge of weight lifting is still useful. You will find these happy for adding other lifts on top (just like fencing you can use the weight lifting lunge as a base) and you can also just load up and bang on yourself (although again, go gradually).

Then another great leg exercise which plays to your strength as a fencer is the step-up. Same as the others - start with easy dumbells and increase the load gradually.

This more or less covers the "unilateral" leg exercises (except for some more advanced candy like pistols). Like fencing, these exercises use each leg independently. But there are also some very useful bilateral leg exercises (yes that means two at a time). Yes there are some fencing moves where you use both legs at the same time (jump, that downward displacement I forget the actual term for). But in weight lifting, you can often save time and increase the load on the back by doing bilateral leg exercises. A program for legs is not excellent if it only has bilateral leg exercises, but it can be good, and many guys who do not understand the importance of legs settle for that. You, as a fencer, do not need to settle for second best when it comes to legs.

The bilateral leg exercises I will cover here are the gold standards of big bad weight exercises. You will want to master these. It will take time. These exercises are incredibly efficient and give you a ton of control over your metabolism and physique. When you get good at them they can pump your ego like a house on fire too. There is a tendency to fall in love with these and forget the value of the other leg exercises. It's OK to fall in love with these, just don't marry them.

The back squat and the conventional deadlift. You must do these unless you have some medical disability. They are simple to describe, but you will want to learn them. There are lots of threads about these here, you will get plenty of answers to your questions about them here. Think of these as the ultimate weapons in your workout program. These are the biggest baddest exercises you can do. They will take advantage of your strong legs and take that to another level. Frankly I wish I had known these when I was a competitive fencer.

The back squat and the deadlift are commonly done big and heavy. It is not normally a good idea to do both in the same workout.

Then there are very important variants of these. The Romanian deadlift (also called RDL) and the stiff-leggeed deadlift (SLDL) are very useful hamstring exercises which can often be paired with the back squat.

The front squat is a bit more technical, but well worth learning. It is possible to pair with the conventional deadlift in a workout.

Then there is the overhead squat. Possibly the most demanding of the squats, but well worth taking the time to learn.

Finally of the important bilateral leg exercises is the power clean. This is a fabulous exercise for fencers, we should all have been required to do these. Unfortunately even the power clean (which is a simplified version of the more technical squat clean) is probably too technical to teach yourself. Not every trainer is qualified to teach these. If I were going to coach fencing again, I would go take a course to become qualified to teach power cleans and make every fencer do them.

Don't worry if you don't know what these exercises are. You can find examples on the net exrx or youtube. I would suggest as you have questions here, ask them and lots of people will answer.

And that brings up an important point. There are some differences of opinion on what is the right way to do some of these things, and you can find many experienced and qualified coaches who have strong disagreements. This will not be that different from fencing, except the disagreements will be about whether your knees or back will get wrecked. Don't worry too much about this - until you get a large volume or heavy weights, you aren't threatening anything. For example the squat is almost universally recognized as a great exercise. But there are furious disagreements about how deep you should squat. And I am on one side of that issue and there are other people here from the other side. If that issue comes up (cross your fingers I didn't just light the fuse by even mentioning it) don't get freaked. Read what everyone has to say and then make your own mind up. It's more important that you do squats one way or the other than you decide to skip them altogether because of these disagreements. It's not that the disagreements are unimportant - just that by the time you have done enough squats for the worries to apply to you, you should have enough time to have made up your own mind on what to bet your knees and back on.

Most of what you described is foreign to me. I did a bent over row, and a row thing with a cable (for the upper back). I also used the assisted pullup thing where you set the weight to subtract from your body weight, and do a military pullup, or dips (for triceps?).

Yes, we know that most of it is foreign to you know. Do not worry. The things the trainer had you do here are not so bad, and for a first time out the guy is being careful to see what he's got to deal with.

You will be able to learn a lot about exercise here, and some other places on the net. Don't let that take away from what you can learn from your trainer. If you want, tell him straight up that someone on the internet who has a fencing background says you ought to be learning squats, deads, and, if possible with qualified instruction, cleans. The guy should know what that advice is about, and have a view about whether he thinks that makes sense. He doesn't have to agree or disagree - but that question should not bother him in the slightest and he should have an answer that stands up.

And the thing where you support yourself and let your legs hang, and then lift your knees up (or legs straight out) for your abs.

Hanging leg raises.

But any advice I can get here, or maybe even a link to a website that shows the major exercises and how to do them safely, would be great.

What weapon did you fence?

I can't really cover everything about exercise in this post, but if you want it, here is an excellent place to find out. Yeah, I'm a fencer, but there are other sports and fitness people here worth your time and then some. You may not understand the appeal of bodybuilding for example, but there is at least one bodybuilder here who is a gold mine.

What weapon? Sabre of course.

Great job thus far! But that was a 5% BF drop in 4 months. The lower you get, the harder it gets. So another 6% in 2 months is extremely unlikely. If you want to see 10%, you're going to have to really clean up your diet, get really dedicated, and work really hard! It'll be worth it, though. Especially for you being back on the dating scene and all ;)

What you say rings true, but I'd like to point out because I wasn't clear, that I had a 5% BF drop in much less than that. I dropped about 3-4 pounds from Sept 1 until Christmas. I dropped the remaining 9 pounds since Jan. 1.

But I agree, the easy part is probably over. I will do as much HIIT as I can, and concentrate on as many compound lifts as I can.

Wow. It'll take me a while to process that. I'm going to need to look up all the exercises you mentioned.

You've given me a lot to think about regarding leg exercises. Why do you think the bilateral leg exercises give such control over metabolism and physique? Can I actually improve my metabolism very much, considering my legs are already above average?

I know I can't do EVERYTHING. And I know I will improve and refine and add to my repertoire over time. Right now I am hoping to hone in on the major compound movements for any part of my body (upper, back, abs, legs) to develop as much boost as I can to my metabolism.

My main goal right now is fat loss. I want to fuel that goal as best I can, but I realize that getting too ambitious or complicated or technical will be an excuse to get lazy. So what I need to arrive at is the "best of the best" and stick with as simple a program as I can, and start to refine it / vary it over time.

The deadlift looks really scary for my back. I have no idea what weight I should try or whether to do conventional or RDL. RDL looks tougher on the back.

As for the back squat, it doesn't look too bad. I could try that.

Of the unilateral ones you described, i think the Bulgarian split squat looks pretty easy.... I can incorporate that right away, esp. as it requires only DBs and not a proper bar with plates on it. Which means I can do it anywhere; in the weight room or in the machine room.

Wow. It'll take me a while to process that. I'm going to need to look up all the exercises you mentioned.

You've given me a lot to think about regarding leg exercises. Why do you think the bilateral leg exercises give such control over metabolism and physique? Can I actually improve my metabolism very much, considering my legs are already above average?

My main goal right now is fat loss.

A: Well there's a lot more to process too. You will want to sort out nutrition and also get a basic program. The basic program will typically be based on the big compounds - squat, dead, bench, row, dip, chin are actually all you need.

B: The bilateral leg exercises give such congtrol over metabolism and physique because they can be the biggest exercises using the most muscle mass. You should expect in a year or two to be able to deadlift more than twice your bodyweight and squat close to that. You will normally use a lower load than that and use more repetitions, but these big exercises trigger the release of huge amounts of hormones compared to any small exercises. The big bilateral exercises also can burn huge Calories if you want, and in several different ways.

C: We heard you about the fat loss. It sounds quite odd if you aren't aware of the value of heavy lifting, but for a lot of goals, a guy like you who hasn't gotten lifting will get people telling him to get lifting. Fat loss is probably number one of those goals. Strength and size increase would also get the same response. So would sleep problems, lack of sexual performance, and poor posture. Sure, we have this hammer and you think everything looks like a nail to us. Yeah, partly, but for the fat loss thing you can look far and wide and not find a tool as good as weight lifting.

And just cutting Calories out of your diet is not so good either. You should control your Calories for fat loss, but not without lifting.

So like I said, nutrition and your resistance exercise are the top priorities for fat loss. I would hope someone will be along to help with the nutrition part. There's some other people that do good programming who might point a link somewhere. (There are some good ideas in the "stickies" by the way). I suppose "Westside for Skinny Bastards (http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside.htm)" might be a reasonable start. Frankly, I'm not huge on coming up with sensible programs for beginners. And, at this point, you probably don't quite understand what a "program" is and why you might want one.

I myself am not exactly the best example for you to follow, since my goals have nothing to do with getting lean. I just want to be a strong injury-free guy with a wide range of athletic abilities and impeccable blood chemistry. I don't follow a program that would help a beginner out much, but if you want to see what I do, the link in my signature points to my journal where everything is spelled out that I do. You should consider starting a journal.

To get an idea what other people here do, you should read some journals. Off the top of my head I would suggest:

MannishBoy (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=25177)

PhillyDude (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=40696)

mattback (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=37061)

Pete5 (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=38655)

This is just a few that I am at least vaguely familiar with. This is just so you get an idea of how different people use journals in different ways. Journals are very useful, especially if they cover a long time.

Update: I had another BF measurement today. This time they didn't use the electrode on the foot and the wrist like last time, so I'm not sure the numbers are comparable.

But on Sept. 2 I was 186 lbs and 21% BF.

Today on January 28, I am 174 lbs and 15.9% BF.

They used one of those Omron handheld things. I think I may buy one. 15.9% was obtained at the "normal" body type setting, and 15.0% with the "athletic" setting, so it may be somewhere in between. Took three measurements, always 15.9%.

How realistic is it to drop down to 10% in 2 months?


Don't waste money on an Omron. They are not worth much and are not very accurate. At all. They are affected by hydration, and only using them in your hands tend to miss body fat that might be stored in other areas of the body if you don't store your fat with the averages.

Same goes for the scales that measure fat through your feet.

Tape measures, calipers, etc are better ways. Take pictures of yourself periodically. You will see changes you would never notice in the slowly changing mirror.

Don't waste money on an Omron. They are not worth much and are not very accurate. At all. They are affected by hydration, and only using them in your hands tend to miss body fat that might be stored in other areas of the body if you don't store your fat with the averages.

Same goes for the scales that measure fat through your feet.

Tape measures, calipers, etc are better ways. Take pictures of yourself periodically. You will see changes you would never notice in the slowly changing mirror.

Yeah I should have pointed that out. I have the Omron handheld thing myself. It's a laugh riot.