I am 5'7" 136 lbs. I'm trying to get down to 125 lbs and lose the extra fat on my stomach and thighs. Short term, I would just like to get more toned and more defined. Long term, I want to be cut, not show much if any visible body fat, and have a defined 6-pack.

I hate looking at these current pics! This is pretty much the worst shape I have ever been in. I used to be a gymnast and when I stopped I worked out like crazy but I have let myself go for a while. I didn't realize how out of shape I was because I hadn't really gained that much weight, but I am in much worse shape.
The pics in red are now, the ones in yellow and black are from Aug 06-that wasn't the best shape I was ever in but it does show the difference.
I'm hoping to be back in that shape or better before this summer.

uhm girl .. you are looking beautiful from the pictures posted !
i dont think that you should be dropping that much weight, and if you want to have a "sixpack"
some weighted ab training should be in place not just worrying about low bodyfat %.

however you say you were a gymnast, well then i can see your point, cuz gymnastic training lessons
can easily be compared to quite some high intensity cardio and lifting at the same time.

id recommend you some lifting and weighted crunches / cable crunches or gorilla leg raises to grow some abs,
just to point it out again, your far from being fat and in my eyes have got a very nice body :tucool:

good luck on reaching your goals.

To me you just look more tan in the first pictures. If I were you I wouldn't try to lose any weight, I'd try to put on some muscle. If you lift heavy and eat enough while watching your diet, you'll get where you want to be. :)

Oh, and there is no such thing as "toned." "Toned" just means having muscle and low bodyfat. You have low bodyfat, but not enough muscle, so it's time to change that. ;)

Maybe in the first pictures you have a lower bf%, but it's hard to tell. Perhaps 1 or 2% less.

Eat clean and do some weights and cardio if you want lower bf and be more "toned", or just do any sport you like, because fortunately for you mother nature already did 99% of the work.

Work hard.

Thanks everyone for the replies & encouragement. I definitely used to be more tan but I decided last year to give up the tanning bed and save my skin... :cool:
I know I'm not "overweight"- I don't believe I have a skewed self-image. I'm just tired of being 23 wishing I had the body I had when I was 18, and I'm trying to get back to that point.
*Also, I spent the last year or two eating fast food and drinking coke EVERY day. I know how bad fast food is for you, I know how bad coke is. So I felt even more guilty about how bad I was eating.
I had been kindof depressed over some things and eating to satisfy whatever craving I had made me feel better. I made a serious decision that I need to start eating for nutrition, not just whenever and whatever based on cravings.

This is how I eventually want to look: (not me, off a fitness site)

I think you look pretty good now :nod:

However, just as others have mentioned, clean up your food intake, add some cardio and weight training and in 8 weeks you should be where you want to be for sure.

No coke and fast food either!:nono: :D It has been over 4 months for me and honestly, I dont miss it.

Good luck and don't hesitate to turn to us for help! :gl:

This is how I eventually want to look: (not me, off a fitness site)

IMO, you look better now than this picture.

First of all, you have an incredibly beautiful body. You should be very proud of yourself and in no way ashamed of what you see in the mirror each and every day. I think the first thing you really need to do is make sure that you realize that. Once you realize that, also realize that what you wish to do is become stronger, not become skinnier, not to become "less fat", not to become more "beautiful" or any other of the hundred demeaning excuses I have heard people come up with. You want to become a stronger woman. There are many great resources on this site and all over the web, but what I can't stress to you enough is DO NOT STARVE YOURSELF...as someone who once did such a foolish thing, I can assure you that it is counter-productive and a very easy bad habit to acquire. Someone like you can easily tone up simply by eating clean, healthy foods, staying physically active and lifting good, heavy weights. We are all here to help and welcome to JSF. :nod:

P.S--I understand the desire to battle sad moments with food...I suffer from depression and that has always been a difficult spot for me. Believe me when I say that it is possible to break the habit and that there is always a bright light at the end of every dark tunnel.

If you would like my opinion then this is it...

I think that you looked better in the first set of pictures but having said that I dont think you look bad in the second set just different. It does have something to do with the tan I would think but you also looked slightly tighter before.

Bottom line is that you are very attractive both before and now and its up to you to be happy with yourself not us. I think you will look great if you firmed up a bit, but I think you look great now too, you need to be happy.

Keep posting, it is always great to see someone following a dream. Good luck! :tucool:

I don't think it's the tan.

It's the posture and the pose. You can almost see she is smiling in the first pic. She is happy. In the last two it's more lets get these damn pics taken sort of attitude.

I don't think it's the tan.

It's the posture and the pose. You can almost see she is smiling in the first pic. She is happy. In the last two it's more lets get these damn pics taken sort of attitude.


Haha- That is exactly what I was thinking! I can't stand how I look in a bathing suit and the pics are motivation to work harder.

I thank everyone who is so nice and encouraging and for helping me feel a little better...

[quote=J_W;566577] If you lift heavy and eat enough while watching your diet, you'll get where you want to be. :)

Out of curiousity what do you consider lifting "heavy"? I don't really know how to measure how much weight I should be using for my workouts.


In weight training class we did 1 rep max then were supposed to use between 65- 80% of that for our workout. Would 80% be considered heavy lifting? I find that I am able to really push myself for the 1RM but cannot do 10 reps w/ 80%. For example, for 1 rep max on bicep curl (machine, both arms) I could do 110 lbs. But it is hard for me to do 10 reps of only 50lbs which is less than 50% of my 1RM. And if I upped it to 80lbs which is almost 80% I could only do 3 reps?
:confused:

Ok, guys.
This girl is not really asking you how you feel about her body, compliments are always nice, but saying that you should be happy for how you look, which to me sounds like "you look good to me so you shouldn't change anything".... is not really what I would like to hear.

Personally I don't really care what people think. I have to be happy in my own body and will do what I have to do to get there.

She is not asking how to drop to 100 lb. She's not asking to post some crazy 2 week miracle diets.
She picked reasonable goal, beautiful fit body, still feminine in my opinion... what she needs is advice how to achieve that.

Why dont I ever see guys on this forum saying to other guys "man, you should be happy with how you look, little pudge... but that's ok....."? :confused:

I agree, I think when she was more tanned, looks like she had lower body fat. I don't think its only angles etc.

So when it comes to my advice.....
Clean up your diet, lift heavy, gain some muscle. This would be my priority.
I went the "cutting first and bulking later" path.... and I ended up looking just plain skinny. Not cut, but skinny.
To look cut, you need muscle on your bones to look good.
Also without extra muscle it's really hard to ahieve that 6-pack.
Extra muscle will support extra fat loss.

Good luck with your goals! :tu:

Out of curiousity what do you consider lifting "heavy"? I don't really know how to measure how much weight I should be using for my workouts.




Try to aim for 8-12 reps. If you can complete 12 reps, up the weight.
The last rep should be a struggle to complete.

When I see girls on the yes/no machine (abductors/adductors) bouncing the stack up and down while talking on their cell phones and drinking water at the same time..... I KNOW that they are not lifting heavy ;) ;)

Clean up your diet, lift heavy, gain some muscle. This would be my priority.
I went the "cutting first and bulking later" path.... and I ended up looking just plain skinny. Not cut, but skinny.
To look cut, you need muscle on your bones to look good.
Also without extra muscle it's really hard to ahieve that 6-pack.
Extra muscle will support extra fat loss.

I like how you think. :nod:

When I see girls on the yes/no machine

I like to call that thing the "gynecology chair" ;).

CamaroGirl, like Maya said, "heavy" just means within the 8-12 rep range, using a weight that is heavy for you. This is highly subjective. This (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=651322) is a good read on sets/reps, and here's (http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/essential_waterbury_program_design&cr=) and article on how to put together a solid weight lifting program.

Good luck! :tu:

Personally I don't really care what people think. I have to be happy in my own body and will do what I have to do to get there.

I agree, I think when she was more tanned, looks like she had lower body fat. I don't think its only angles etc.


You are right... The compliments are nice but still I feel very out of shape and will still work toward getting the body I want.
I definitely had lower body fat before. I didn't measure but overall I can see and DEFINITELY feel that my body is different.

Also: How many sets of 8-12 reps do you recommend?

This (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=651322) is a good read on sets/reps, and here's (http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/essential_waterbury_program_design&cr=) and article on how to put together a solid weight lifting program.

Good luck! :tu:

Thanks! I will catch up on my reading... When I took the weight lifting class the teacher was mostly concerned on training his athletes that were in the class. We had to come up w/ a workout plan and give it to him along w/ our goals and he approved that list... Hmm. I guess I have a lot more to learn! :)

When I see girls on the yes/no machine (abductors/adductors) bouncing the stack up and down while talking on their cell phones and drinking water at the same time..... I KNOW that they are not lifting heavy ;) ;)

Also: Question about Ad/Abductor machines... I usually do 70-90 lbs which is very easy and I can do a lot of reps- (I do them slowly, not bouncing either)
I want my inner thighs toned but not large. If I go up to like 130-150 for 8-12 reps do you think it would make my thighs bigger?

Abductor is a little harder, I can't do as much weight- maybe 110 for 8-12 reps is about all I can do. Should I be working on evening it out so my abductors can handle as much as adductors?

Camarogirl,

It is very very very hard to get big, it takes years of work for a male to get big muscles, unless we take steroids (= destroy our health). It is even harder for a female, since you don't have the hormones (at least not enough) that make muscles grow big.
You will not get big unless you take steroids. You will only get toned. Your muscles will grow a little with a lot of work and a lot of time, so don't worry about getting big muscles. That is not going to be your problem.

Lifting heavy (as Maya said 8-12 rep. range) will make you stronger and will make you more toned with a little muscle growth.

You don't need to do many sets. Just warm up with lower weight before the "real" sets in order to prevent injuries.

Here's a site with information that really works for me.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_notes.html

Once again, don't get scared. You will get a stronger body, a little more muscle, more toned, but you will never get big being a female unless you take roids.

Eating clean and counting your calories, along with cardio exercice (running, swimming, bycicle, etc...) will get your bf% down, and with an athletic physique like yours that should be relatively easy.

Maya is very helpfull and she already did what you want to do, with excellent results. If I were you I would read all her journals and copy everything.

Work hard.

P.S., Yes, that abductor machine has something, I don't know, I only see women working there, and they always do like 54 repetition sets... They must think their legs will get thinner that way :confused:.

Ok, guys.
This girl is not really asking you how you feel about her body, compliments are always nice, but saying that you should be happy for how you look, which to me sounds like "you look good to me so you shouldn't change anything".... is not really what I would like to hear.

:claphigh: thank you, maya.


You will not get big unless you take steroids. You will only get toned. Your muscles will grow a little with a lot of work and a lot of time, so don't worry about getting big muscles. That is not going to be your problem.

Lifting heavy (as Maya said 8-12 rep. range) will make you stronger and will make you more toned with a little muscle growth.


to get how big? did i miss where she said she was worried about getting too big?

there is no such thing as toning your muscles. either you have muscles, or you don't. if you want to see a curvy, muscular physique, you have build muscle. low rep heaving weight will indeed induce muscle growth, which is exactly what camarogirl needs, if she wants to look like her photo.

camaro, i secondthirdfourthwhatever that you have an excellent starting point from which to achieve your goals. :gl:

" want my inner thighs toned but not large. If I go up to like 130-150 for 8-12 reps do you think it would make my thighs bigger?"

This is where she worried about her muscles getting too big :).

Yes, most people have muscles. Probably everybody.

No such thing as being toned, well, you're right, but if you want more definition and being strong, you need to lift heavy. I think she said she wanted to be more "toned". Sorry for using the same incorrect term. I won't do it again :spank:

" want my inner thighs toned but not large. If I go up to like 130-150 for 8-12 reps do you think it would make my thighs bigger?"

This is where she worried about her muscles getting too big :).

Yes, most people have muscles. Probably everybody.

No such thing as being toned, well, you're right, but if you want more definition and being strong, you need to lift heavy. I think she said she wanted to be more "toned". Sorry for using the same incorrect term. I won't do it again :spank:

Sorry Pedurrod, I didn't mean to come off harshly. What I wanted to do is not reinforce the myths and utter nonsense sold by the women's "health" industry. The buzzwords manufactured to keep women from being put off by lifting just reinforce falsehoods about how our bodies work.

I want my XXX toned but not large.

AAAAHHHHH... she said the "T' word! :spaz:

As a trainer, I hear that word every day. Here's how I'd imagine the conversation with someone like camarogirl (who is already "fit" but wants to take it to the next level) would go...

She sits down and says "I'd like to lose some weight and get toned..."

To which I reply "You mean you want to be less fat with more visible muscle?"

To which I get "Well, I definitely want to lose a few pounds, but I don't want to have big muscles..."

To which I reply "Trust me, you couldn't get big muscles unless you really really wanted to, and it would be harder than anything you ever did in your life. What I think you mean is that you want to have more definition in your shoulders, legs, and midsection, and less fat on your arms, stomach, thighs, and butt?"

To which I get "Yeah, that's pretty much it..."

To which I reply "What if I told you that you could still be the same weight that you are now but would look exactly the way you want... would that be a problem for you?"

(Look of disbelief) "No... as long as I look good..."

To which I reply "Well, you already have a good structure to work from... so the real challenge will be to strip the extra layer of fat away so you can see the muscle underneath it, and then selectively build a little more muscle in those areas that you really want to stand out, so when someone looks at you, they say "Wow... she looks like she could be on the cover of a fitness magazine."

And that would be my advice to your, camarogirl... work on cleaning up the diet as much as possible (which is the majority of your issue right now), don't be afraid to lift weights hard and heavy (I don't use the hip abductor/hip adductor with MOST of my clients... it's more a machine which builds strength but doesn't really do anything to "tone" the legs), and seek out the help of a professional if you don't know how to do either of those things and need "hands on" education or motivation to make it happen.

:gl:

Chop,

I agree with you.

Another terrible myth is the one that says fat can be spot reduced.

I remember one time this girl was doing triceps incorrectly. When I suggested the right way, she told me she wanted to burn the fat under her arms. I told her she would get stronger triceps, but in order to reduce fat she rather be in the cardio room and watching her diet. She looked at me with really big eyes like "are you serious?"

So you're right, some myths do a lot of damage.

P.S. I forgot to tell her to do a weight lifting routine as well, but that might have been to much to swallow at one time.

Also: Question about Ad/Abductor machines... I usually do 70-90 lbs which is very easy and I can do a lot of reps- (I do them slowly, not bouncing either)
I want my inner thighs toned but not large. If I go up to like 130-150 for 8-12 reps do you think it would make my thighs bigger?

Abductor is a little harder, I can't do as much weight- maybe 110 for 8-12 reps is about all I can do. Should I be working on evening it out so my abductors can handle as much as adductors?

Adductors are tiny muscles (I'm not saying that they are unimpotrant though). Even doubling the size of them wouldnt make a difference how your thighs look
http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/Adductors.html


Transverse Abduction
Lateral movement away from the midline of the body in a horizontal plane; moving the thigh outward with hip bent.
Gluteus maximus http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/GluteusMaximus.html
Gluteus medius http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/GluteusMedius.html
Gluteus minimus http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/GluteusMinimus.html
Piriformis and Obturator externus http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/HipExernalRotators.html

I wouldnt worry about evening out your adductors and abductors. These are isolated exercises and dont have a huge impact on your metabolism. Squats, deadlifts, lunges.... concentrate on those.

PS. I'm not saying that training abductors and adductors is a waste of time, just saying that I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Chop,

I agree with you.

Another terrible myth is the one that says fat can be spot reduced.

I remember one time this girl was doing triceps incorrectly. When I suggested the right way, she told me she wanted to burn the fat under her arms. I told her she would get stronger triceps, but in order to reduce fat she rather be in the cardio room and watching her diet. She looked at me with really big eyes like "are you serious?"

So you're right, some myths do a lot of damage.

P.S. I forgot to tell her to do a weight lifting routine as well, but that might have been to much to swallow at one time.

I've heard even better.
This client of mine is telling me that shes been doing a lot of shoulder exercises (shoulder press) because "I'm all loose over here" (as she's pointing on her in fact little flabby tricep area).

She is already doing loads of cardio and eats pretty good. I told her not to waste her time on tricep exercises and concentrate on..... you guessed Squats, Deads, Bench Press.

She is still insisting that to burn the fat from an area you have to weight train that area.
"Why do you then train your abs?! To burn fat from there, right?"
Honestly, this is mostly a result of those STUPID abs commercials. I swear it messes with people's minds. :rolleyes:

Maya, correct me if I'm wrong, but that fitness model she posted the pic of is probably not going to look that way for long. She's probably dieted down for shoots/shows/whatever. 80% of the year she would look in shape, just not quite as lean. That's not extreme female bodybuilder or fitness competitor lean, but it's not far from it. Maybe 2-3% above?

But I agree with everybody else, you're in a great position to start from, and it shouldn't take too long to achieve your goals. I think lifting hard on big compound lifts for the most part, concentrating on leg and back work with a secondary emphasis on the shoulders to give the illusion of a smaller waist should be the direction.

I don't think you necessarily need to shoot for a goal weight 10 lbs lower than you are now. I think you could easily carry the same weight as now and look leaner/fitter. Look through Maya's journals and threads here in this forum for some examples of this effect.

You are looking for the biggest metabolically impactful exercises. So do lunges more than you get on the adducter/abductor machines. Single legged free weights work can give you all the stabilizer work you need and brings with it work for the quads, glutes, and hams at the same time.

I'm sure you can improve an already above average starting point :tu:

Maya, correct me if I'm wrong, but that fitness model she posted the pic of is probably not going to look that way for long. She's probably dieted down for shoots/shows/whatever. 80% of the year she would look in shape, just not quite as lean. That's not extreme female bodybuilder or fitness competitor lean, but it's not far from it. Maybe 2-3% above?



You are right MB, but I wasn't trying to say that the goal she's trying to achieve is easy to obtain or easy to maintain.
I just felt that some people have this "you look good enough to me/ you should be happy with the way you are" attitude.... which I tend to have a little problem with :whistle:

It's like my girlfiends telling me (without me asking their opinion, simply stating my decision) "oh, you don't need lose weight/bulk up/get your boobs done.... you look good the way you are now"
First of all.... its not like they ever saw me naked and to be honest I don't really care how they feel about it.... I just want to feel good about my body and thats all.
And BTW.. I'm very happy with my decisions. Surgery for example made me look way more proportional.... and yes, I'm happier.
So saying that plastic surgery doesnt make you happy is BS.
Ok, maybe if it's done for the wrong reasons (like trying to make your boyfriend/husband happy)

Wow... did I ever get off topic, sorry camarogirl!
And I'm sorry for maybe "too much information" :lol:

Ok, guys.
This girl is not really asking you how you feel about her body, compliments are always nice, but saying that you should be happy for how you look, which to me sounds like "you look good to me so you shouldn't change anything".... is not really what I would like to hear.

Personally I don't really care what people think. I have to be happy in my own body and will do what I have to do to get there.

She is not asking how to drop to 100 lb. She's not asking to post some crazy 2 week miracle diets.
She picked reasonable goal, beautiful fit body, still feminine in my opinion... what she needs is advice how to achieve that.

Why dont I ever see guys on this forum saying to other guys "man, you should be happy with how you look, little pudge... but that's ok....."? :confused:

:claplow: Couldn't agree more.

I understand and agree with all of your points. She should look like she wants to look like. My point in saying that was that sometimes those levels of leanness take a very serious lifestyle commitment to maintain that many people just don't want to make. However, you can be very, very close to that and lead a fairly "normal" lifestyle.

She may be ready to make that kind of commitment, she may not. I just want her to make it knowing what it takes to get to fitness model condition and know how they generally don't stay at quite that level all year long. They "peak" for shoots I suspect, but go up a couple of % of BF at times as well.

I do think guys on here sometimes put women's goals against their own views of attractiveness, but I think you miss the times when we tell a lot of the guys that come here that are skinny as a bone but want to get Brad Pitt abs that they don't need to cut, either. There is a new wave of guys thinking that they have to get ripped abs when they already weigh a buck and a quarter and look like you couldn't see them at all if they turned sideways. I've started calling them concentration camp abs :D So it goes both ways, but not as bad on the guys' side.

I do think guys on here sometimes put women's goals against their own views of attractiveness Lots of guys always qualify the advice about lifting with "Don't worry; you won't get too big if you lift heavy weights."

:rolleyes:

Which leads me to think that those guys are insisting that only women smaller than a certain size are attractive.

So, uh, if I want to get big, I'm, like, what, out of luck? :confused:

Honestly, I'm pretty pleased that none of the guys agreed that she needs to lose ten pounds. :p Not that it would necessarily be bad for her to lose ten pounds, but I don't think focusing on those ten pounds should be the main issue.

In general, the women posting on this forums subject themselves to much higher standards than the men do. It seems that a large percentage of the women here are looking for the "fitness model" look, whereas the guys are pretty happy with something a little bit more modest. For a woman to reach a photo like in that sample (lower than 15% body fat, which is equivalent to a man reaching lower than 9% body fat), she'll have to make much greater sacrifices than most of her friends and neighbours.

camarogirl, you look beautiful. You'd look beautiful if you were 10 pounds lighter, and you'd look beautiful if you were 10 pounds heavier.

I see that you'd like to be leaner. Just like everyone else here, I agree that the most dramatic changes to your appearance would be made if you built up your lean body mass at the same time as you worked on losing your fat mass.

MannishBoy and phillydude have given you some great advice. You"ll want to eat at a slight caloric deficit if you'd like to get smaller, but if you're just looking to get more lean, your current amount of food may be fine, with some cardio and weight training thrown in.

Lots of guys always qualify the advice about lifting with "Don't worry; you won't get too big if you lift heavy weights."

:rolleyes:

Which leads me to think that those guys are insisting that only women smaller than a certain size are attractive.

So, uh, if I want to get big, I'm, like, what, out of luck? :confused:

Honestly, I'm pretty pleased that none of the guys agreed that she needs to lose ten pounds. :p

In general, the women posting on this forums subject themselves to much higher standards than the men do. It seems that a large percentage of the women here are looking for the "fitness model" look, whereas the guys are pretty happy with something a little bit more modest. For a woman to reach a photo like in that sample (lower than 15% body fat, which is equivalent to a man reaching lower than 9% body fat), she'll have to make much greater sacrifices than most of her friends and neighbours.

camarogirl, you look beautiful. You'd look beautiful if you were 10 pounds lighter, and you'd look beautiful if you were 10 pounds heavier.
I see that you'd like to be leaner. Just like everyone else here, I agree that the most dramatic changes to your appearance would be made if you built up your lean body mass at the same time as you worked on losing your fat mass.

MannishBoy and phillydude have given you some great advice.

I think the reason guys immediately knee jerk into "you won't get bulky very easily" (and I'm guilty), is because when you give the average media influenced woman that posts here advice to lift heavy free weights, that's the typical response..."I don't want to get all big". In my case the defensive conditional statement is to head off a typical response. It probably isn't fair as much as lazy :D

But I don't think all guys that say that around here are intending to subconsciously shape the woman's goals as to what she should look like. Maybe in some cases, but not all.

I think the reason guys immediately knee jerk into "you won't get bulky very easily" (and I'm guilty), is because when you give the average media influenced woman that posts here advice to lift heavy free weights, that's the typical response..."I don't want to get all big". In my case the defensive conditional statement is to head off a typical response. It probably isn't fair as much as lazy :D

But I don't think all guys that say that around here are intending to subconsciously shape the woman's goals as to what she should look like. Maybe in some cases, but not all.

I don't think you are "guilty" because Camaro girl stated that she doesnt wanna get big and bulky. So the answer is correct :"you won't get bulky very easily". Its not "easy" for a woman to get big. Not impossible, but it doesn't happen by accident.

I talked about it in my Gallery with Camarogirl
here (scroll down to the very bottom) (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=33627&page=15) and I asked her what to her means "huge" and what to her looks feminine.

I talked about it in my Gallery with Camarogirl
here (scroll down to the very bottom) (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=33627&page=15) and I asked her what to her means "huge" and what to her looks feminine.

Ah. I see you already covered what I was trying to get at before. With pictures even. Sorry to be repetitive. I should have known you'd have things well in hand.

I don't know how to quote more than one person in a post~so I'll just write out a few things in response... (if anyone knows how please do tell)
Okay, it seems "toned" is such a touchy word on here! To me "toned" is a visible perception of the body looking fit. I understand it is not a state of being or certain condition of the muscles.

I know I would never get bodybuilder size by accident. I just have a certain look I'm going for. I know I can achieve it because I have been there once. I know it is going to be hard work and hard to maintain. It used to be natural for me so I'm hoping it will be once again.
Basically I want the body of a gymnast. I know I should not compare myself to 18 yr olds who workout 20 hours a week but it is so hard not to when I know I could look like that and once did.

I am going to take the advice and start working out with heavy weights.

Also, I have one issue bugging me right now. Everyone jumps up and says you HAVE to have days off, etc. I don't see why this is such a big deal. Some of the girls at the gym (level 10) workout 6 days per week. We have a general rule that during conditioning you leave a day's rest before doing certain exercises again.
For example:
Day 1: pushing- dips, pushups, handstand pushups
Day 2: Legs
Day 3: pulling- climbing rope, pull-ups, etc.

Besides rotating between muscle groups in conditioning, doing gymnastics in general works the entire body. In my opinion, elite gymnasts have the most fit bodies of any other sport, and they workout everyday. So I don't see why there is any fault in working out every day. (Also they train much longer than the amount of time I would be spending in the gym.)


I don't see why this concept could not be applied to a regular workout schedule as long as you are allowing the specific muscles to rest?
My "ideal" plan would be to do 45 min cardio every day. Spend one day on arms/abs since I don't particularly want to focus on arms. The other day would be legs.

If getting rest is only a comfort issue I really don't care. I can deal with it. Is it actually a proven thing that working out every day would be counterproductive, given that you don't do the same muscle groups/exercises?

I don't know how to quote more than one person in a post~so I'll just write out a few things in response... (if anyone knows how please do tell)
Okay, it seems "toned" is such a touchy word on here! To me "toned" is a visible perception of the body looking fit. I understand it is not a state of being or certain condition of the muscles.

I know I would never get bodybuilder size by accident. I just have a certain look I'm going for. I know I can achieve it because I have been there once. I know it is going to be hard work and hard to maintain. It used to be natural for me so I'm hoping it will be once again.
Basically I want the body of a gymnast. I know I should not compare myself to 18 yr olds who workout 20 hours a week but it is so hard not to when I know I could look like that and once did.

I am going to take the advice and start working out with heavy weights.

Also, I have one issue bugging me right now. Everyone jumps up and says you HAVE to have days off, etc. I don't see why this is such a big deal. Some of the girls at the gym (level 10) workout 6 days per week. We have a general rule that during conditioning you leave a day's rest before doing certain exercises again.
For example:
Day 1: pushing- dips, pushups, handstand pushups
Day 2: Legs
Day 3: pulling- climbing rope, pull-ups, etc.

Besides rotating between muscle groups in conditioning, doing gymnastics in general works the entire body. In my opinion, elite gymnasts have the most fit bodies of any other sport, and they workout everyday. So I don't see why there is any fault in working out every day. (Also they train much longer than the amount of time I would be spending in the gym.)


I don't see why this concept could not be applied to a regular workout schedule as long as you are allowing the specific muscles to rest?
My "ideal" plan would be to do 45 min cardio every day. Spend one day on arms/abs since I don't particularly want to focus on arms. The other day would be legs.

If getting rest is only a comfort issue I really don't care. I can deal with it. Is it actually a proven thing that working out every day would be counterproductive, given that you don't do the same muscle groups/exercises?


It's not a comfort issue, it's a repair and hormonal issue. People who train as you describe work up to that type of workout schedule over time. Years even. So they develop the work capacity. They probably eat accordingly.

However, if you just jump into something like that, you put a lot of stress on the body. Stress that raises cortisol levels, which eats muscles and helps fat stay stored. You don't want that.

Also, muscles do not grow in the gym, and a lot of fat burning also occurs out of the gym as your body refills glycogen stores and fixes the damage done by the workouts by raising it's metabolism. It can be measured by something called EPOC. Excess Post-exercise oxygen consumption.

Yeah, you can work out 6-7 days a week if you don't always go all out right now if you are in decent shape. So weight train 3-4 days, do low intensity cardio on a day or two, and maybe do some short but intense HIIT workouts on non-weight days (or brief sessions after weight days, maybe 10 minutes). Over time you can work up to more intense/longer workouts, but you still need your rest, and periodic "deload" weeks where you reduce volume/intensity/workout time.

Working out more frequently doesn't always mean faster progress. More does not always equal better. You can get in pretty good shape working out only 3 days a week if the nutrition is right and you train to increase that EPOC (hard, intense, lactic threshold type or work).

Also, in your proposed schedule, don't forget the back in your training. It's one of the biggest muscle groups, and therefore most metabolically impactful. So deadlifts, pullups/pulldowns, row work, etc. Legs and back should be the core of your training if you want to improve body composition. The biggest movements also create the biggest hormonal responses.

Mannishboy pretty much said everything.

I would add:

Yes, you can have the body of an 18. Probably better.

No, you don't need to work 20 hours a week. 4 hours of weight lifting and 4 hours of cardio could be more than enough. You're not training to win a gymnastic competition, but to have the body you want. Weights will help you work your muscles in much less time than you would doing gymnastics, but then, you will need more rest to recover.

No, it won't be hard to maintain. It might be hard to achieve, not so much in your case, but maintaining won't be hard, it will take a lot less effort and will be fun.

I don't know how to quote more than one person either. I guess you will have to copy and paste. When you type an answer you can scroll down and see all the messages.

No such thing as being toned, well, you're right, but if you want more definition and being strong, you need to lift heavy. I think she said she wanted to be more "toned". Sorry for using the same incorrect term. I won't do it again :spank:

She wants to be leaner....everyone exhibits muscle tone (tonus)....but not in the way they think of the word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_tone
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Muscles.html#MotorUnit

I would say if you want, go ahead and loose a few pounds and tighten up, but really, you are still very attractive as it is.

To which I reply "Trust me, you couldn't get big muscles unless you really really wanted to, and it would be harder than anything you ever did in your life. What I think you mean is that you want to have more definition in your shoulders, legs, and midsection, and less fat on your arms, stomach, thighs, and butt?"


Isn't a lot easier to just say "toned" than all of that? :confused:

Isn't a lot easier to just say "toned" than all of that? :confused:

exactly what i was thinking... :lol:

Isn't a lot easier to just say "toned" than all of that? :confused:
I personally don't have a problem with the word "toned", but it's used incorrectly so often. A toned body is a fine thing, but you can't have "toned muscles", and that's the phrase that makes me cringe.

However, I'm sure camarogirl understands this perfectly fine; and the way she used it in her introduction wasn't at all confusing or cringeworthy to me.

I personally don't have a problem with the word "toned", but it's used incorrectly so often. A toned body is a fine thing, but you can't have "toned muscles", and that's the phrase that makes me cringe.

However, I'm sure camarogirl understands this perfectly fine; and the way she used it in her introduction wasn't at all confusing or cringeworthy to me.

In all fairness I did say in an earlier post "I want my inner thighs toned but not large." So I can see how people would take it that way... But I meant it in a way of how I look, as in wanting a toned stomach, butt, etc. :)

:confused:

So when it comes to my advice.....
Clean up your diet, lift heavy, gain some muscle. This would be my priority.
I went the "cutting first and bulking later" path.... and I ended up looking just plain skinny. Not cut, but skinny.
To look cut, you need muscle on your bones to look good.
Also without extra muscle it's really hard to ahieve that 6-pack.
Extra muscle will support extra fat loss.



Maya,
I've been seeing on here a lot about bulking/cutting. How long do you "bulk" before you "cut"? I have been thinking what I want the most right now and I'd really like to gain about an inch or two in my thighs, but also lose fat all over before the summer hits... I "want" visible abs but don't know if 4 months is enough time.
I know I need to read thru your journals and others to get some ideas~ will do when I have more time. I'm just wondering if I have enough time/ would it be worth it to look into now. (vs. just working out and eating well) I can't remember who but someone else had a post saying don't bulk right now or you'll look bloated during summer...

I've been seeing on here a lot about bulking/cutting. How long do you "bulk" before you "cut"? I have been thinking what I want the most right now and I'd really like to gain about an inch or two in my thighs, but also lose fat all over before the summer hits... I "want" visible abs but don't know if 4 months is enough time.
I know I need to read thru your journals and others to get some ideas~ will do when I have more time. I'm just wondering if I have enough time/ would it be worth it to look into now. (vs. just working out and eating well) I can't remember who but someone else had a post saying don't bulk right now or you'll look bloated during summer...Typically, 12 weeks is a nice amount of time to bulk or cut.

I'm not typical, so I don't know how much my advice will help. I haven't set any time-based goals, so I don't know what could have been possible if I'd pushed myself harder.

I don't know if these images will help, but I experienced something similar to what Maya's talking about. The six pack abs really won't show up unless you have a significant amount of muscle mass.

There's a set of progress on my abs in 2004 (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?p=308654#post308654). From February when I joined the forums to June, there's a change in their appeance, and you can start to see some definition, but it's not really a six pack, and further cutting still wouldn't have done anything different either. You can see how they later appeared for me in 2006, and that was because I'd spent all that time on a growth phase. (Technically, I never officially cut or bulk, but did go through periods of slight calorie deficits and slight calorie surpluses.

These pictures here (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?p=371421#post371421) might be a little more clear. I'm 5'5" and started out about 125 pounds, and, I'm guessing, maybe 24% body fat. Even though I was lifting heavy the whole time, I couldn't really get down below maybe 19% body fat or so for the longest time. It's really, really difficult to get lean when you don't have a lot of muscle mass. And it's even more difficult to get lean and like how you look lean when you don't have a lot of muscle mass. :p I look at the photo of myself July 2004, and I can really see why everyone was saying I looked too skinny. :doh:

I would suggest that you bulk (but not a big bulk) for 8 weeks, putting you to March 17. After that, 8 weeks of cutting will put you in good shape by May 19, and you can continue to cut/maintain through the summer.

When I say not a big bulk, you could maybe try eating about 200 calories above maintenance, and see how that goes for you.

I think your goals are getting much clearer now. :cool:

Guava, thanks! First of all, your abs look great. Even before the 06 pic you have a really nice flat stomach which I would love to have! I would be totally excited if I get even that close before this summer! If you don't mind me asking what is your waist measurement?
Mine is about 28.5 (sucked in 26.5 :)) which is what I'd like to get down to. My husband argues that if I work on getting larger abs then my wasit size will not be able to go down. I would think that losing fat around wasit, sides, back will allow me to lose inches but still get larger in the abs~?
I am scared to eat a surplus of calories right now because I "JUST" started watching my calories and keeping track. When you started bulking did your bf% increase or only your muscle mass? Could I possibly still eat <2000 calories and just not do as much cardio and get the same results?

Guava, thanks! First of all, your abs look great. Even before the 06 pic you have a really nice flat stomach which I would love to have! I would be totally excited if I get even that close before this summer! If you don't mind me asking what is your waist measurement?
Mine is about 28.5 (sucked in 26.5 :)) which is what I'd like to get down to. My husband argues that if I work on getting larger abs then my wasit size will not be able to go down. I would think that losing fat around wasit, sides, back will allow me to lose inches but still get larger in the abs~?
I am scared to eat a surplus of calories right now because I "JUST" started watching my calories and keeping track. When you started bulking did your bf% increase or only your muscle mass? Could I possibly still eat <2000 calories and just not do as much cardio and get the same results?

You might gain some fat... you might not. How much? It depends on your genetics and your diet. Cleaner 2000 cals will work differently then junky 2000 cals.
If you wanna be super strict, look at your diet.
I would get rid of dairy (except for egg whites), sugary fruits (I would keep grapefruits, berries) and any processed carbs.
Stick to chicken, beef 3 x week, fish, lots of green veggies, time your carbs near your workouts (stick with brown rice, oatmeal, quinoa, yams) and supplement with fish oils.

Bigger abs will lot give you bigger waist. If you lose fat, your waist will get smaller.

Guava, thanks! First of all, your abs look great. Even before the 06 pic you have a really nice flat stomach which I would love to have! I would be totally excited if I get even that close before this summer! If you don't mind me asking what is your waist measurement?
Mine is about 28.5 (sucked in 26.5 :)) which is what I'd like to get down to. My husband argues that if I work on getting larger abs then my wasit size will not be able to go down. I would think that losing fat around wasit, sides, back will allow me to lose inches but still get larger in the abs~?
I am scared to eat a surplus of calories right now because I "JUST" started watching my calories and keeping track. When you started bulking did your bf% increase or only your muscle mass? Could I possibly still eat <2000 calories and just not do as much cardio and get the same results?Thanks camarogirl. In the first picture, from 2003, my "regular" weight 130, abs about 28 inches, which I think I could sucK in to about 26.5. By the time I joined the forums and was about 125 pounds, the smallest part of my waist was 27 inches. At my lowest weight 114 pounds, was about 26 inches. I remember being a little surprised that I'd gotten lower than 26.5, which I thought would have been my limit. Then it stayed at 26 inches as my weight went up and body fat percentage stayed the same. (Most of the weight went to my shoulders and lats I figure)

I don't think you necessarily need to bulk. I didn't really ever bulk either. In my growth phase, I only ate enough to support muscle growth (it varied, somewhere in the wide range between 1800 and 2200 calories), so while I gained mass, my body fat percentage stayed the same or decreased. But that's not necessarily the most efficient way to do it, and you won't notice dramatic changes. (Two pounds! Woo hoo, I gained two pounds! ;))

Focus on the goals that are most important to you - for you , if it's a flat stomach, and not necessarily a six pack, you'll want to eat either at maintenance or slightly below. I've never routinely counted calories or tracked macronutrients; I think you can make those changes without having to do that, but, as I mentioned, it won't likely be quick if you do it that way. :p Personally, I had better success eating MORE fruits than I had previously, and moderate amounts of dairy (until I found out I was lactose intolerant) but keep in mind the disclaimer "results not typical" :lol:

Focus on the goals that are most important to you - for you , if it's a flat stomach, and not necessarily a six pack, you'll want to eat either at maintenance or slightly below.

I definitely "want" a 6 pack. I just don't know if it will happen by May. I would be very happy at this point to have just a flat stomach. Kindof in the same way of how I might want a Ferrari but a Corvette makes me happy. They are both good.

Actually, I think I may have lost a little of my stomach fat already. I'm going to take some pics and measurements and see if there is a difference. :D

I would get rid of dairy (except for egg whites), sugary fruits (I would keep grapefruits, berries) and any processed carbs.
Stick to chicken, beef 3 x week, fish, lots of green veggies, time your carbs near your workouts (stick with brown rice, oatmeal, quinoa, yams) and supplement with fish oils.


Generally I eat tons of chicken. It's my food of choice everywhere I eat. Usually I eat chicken twice per day. (Untill recently it was fried so very unhealthy, but I've been eating it grilled lately.)

I bought some eggs, fruit, veggies, protein bars, rice, hamburger, and steak. I can't really eat fish unless it's tuna because my husband hates fish, and neither one of us know how to cook it. (Any ideas?)

As for giving up sugary fruit/processed carbs, I don't know if I have the discipline yet... I think if I'm too strict about it I won't stick to it. :confused:

Pic update... I've lost about 4-5 lbs since first set of pics. I think I see a small difference~not really sure. I thought I did until I started cropping the pics making them the same size, now I'm not sure. I am posting the old pic w/ new pic for comparison.
Also including flexing pictures to see the progress there as well...

Your waist looks thinner.:tucool: Keep up the good work. Its working!

There are millions of Women who would love to look the way you do now!! (Including my wife) :)

Keep it up..

i see improvement, but i suggest you watch your camera angles. the 1st set has more of a looking down at you angle which makes your areas of concern look bigger than they might look compared to a straight on shot. try to stay consistent, maybe you can put the camera on a tripod or a shelf or something when you take the photos.

other than that, keep up the good work!

kree- thanks! My stomach is one of my problem areas. I think it's getting a little better but the difference is really small.

cisco- that is very nice of you to say, thanks. :)

rise- the 1st pics my husband took, the 2nd set I took w/ the camera on a shelf. I'm going to keep taking them from the shelf from now on so they will be the same. :)

It's not a comfort issue, it's a repair and hormonal issue. People who train as you describe work up to that type of workout schedule over time. Years even. So they develop the work capacity. They probably eat accordingly.

However, if you just jump into something like that, you put a lot of stress on the body. Stress that raises cortisol levels, which eats muscles and helps fat stay stored. You don't want that.

Also, muscles do not grow in the gym, and a lot of fat burning also occurs out of the gym as your body refills glycogen stores and fixes the damage done by the workouts by raising it's metabolism. It can be measured by something called EPOC. Excess Post-exercise oxygen consumption.

Yeah, you can work out 6-7 days a week if you don't always go all out right now if you are in decent shape. So weight train 3-4 days, do low intensity cardio on a day or two, and maybe do some short but intense HIIT workouts on non-weight days (or brief sessions after weight days, maybe 10 minutes). Over time you can work up to more intense/longer workouts, but you still need your rest, and periodic "deload" weeks where you reduce volume/intensity/workout time.

Working out more frequently doesn't always mean faster progress. More does not always equal better. You can get in pretty good shape working out only 3 days a week if the nutrition is right and you train to increase that EPOC (hard, intense, lactic threshold type or work).

Also, in your proposed schedule, don't forget the back in your training. It's one of the biggest muscle groups, and therefore most metabolically impactful. So deadlifts, pullups/pulldowns, row work, etc. Legs and back should be the core of your training if you want to improve body composition. The biggest movements also create the biggest hormonal responses.

Thank you for the information, you seem really knowledgeable in the subject. I have been tweaking my plan and I was wondering if you (or anyone else who happens to be reading) thinks it's a good idea?

I plan to workout M/W/F/S:
Monday- Legs and abs
Wednesday- Arms, back, and abs
Friday- Legs and abs
Saturday- Arms and back
Every day- 30 to 45 minutes cardio. (Should this be before the rest of my workout or after/or does it really matter? I like to do it first to get it out of the way since I'm not particularly fond of cardio.)

I plan to workout M/W/F/S:
Monday- Legs and abs
Wednesday- Arms, back, and abs
Friday- Legs and abs
Saturday- Arms and back
Every day- 30 to 45 minutes cardio. (Should this be before the rest of my workout or after/or does it really matter? I like to do it first to get it out of the way since I'm not particularly fond of cardio.)

I would suggest cutting way down on the ab work since you say your stomach is a problem area.

Given that plan I would choose Monday for squats / RDLs and Friday for conventional deadlift based legs if knees were more of a problem and the other way around if lower back was more of a problem.

Wednesday would be the horizontal pressing/rowing and Saturday would be the shoulders/bis/tris.

I would not do jack on Tuesday and Sunday. I would change to adding a little cardio after the uppers workouts.