I would say a newbie could make decent strength gains at first even whilst on the shittest diet out and indeed a diet that placed him in calorific deficit.

Indeed I'm sure we've all experienced strength gains before on cutting diets which place us in calorific deficits. Anyway, my question is what is happening here with the body with these strength gains whilst in calorific deficit - is there any actual muscle hypertrophy going on or are the muscles just staying the same size and getting more "efficient" ?


Thanks in advance to the folk who actually know the answer to this, it's always puzzled me a little:D

There is no straight answer for this. Everybody is different.

Just did some internet reading and it seems it is possible - particularly in newbies and in also in obese individuals - whether trained or not.


It seems the body can use its own fat stores to support the hypertrophy whilst in calorific deficit. Apparently the fatter you are the more likely it is the body will release fat stores to support hypertrophy and vice a versa.


The good news from that would be that if you get too fat from a bulk you should see strength gains at first even whilst in calorific deficit, the leaner you get, the less likely this is to happen. This theory fits in with my own experience when recently I got way too fat after a bulk, much to my surprise when I started the cut the strength gains at first were probably better than they had been latterly on the bulk, and that on only 1500 calories a day ( Am 5 feet 10 and was 13 stoneish when started the cut, must have been a good 28ish plus % bodyfat, 36 "waist , 4 and a bit months later down to 11 stoneish and 15ish % bodyfat, 31" waist).

The study that is going to be of real value to you is finding out how your unique body will respond to whatever dietary and training principles you're currently following. Don't look for anyone to be able to answer this for you with absolute certainty.

I understand the benefit of some general information and guidelines, but don't look too far in someone telling you what your body is, and is not capable of. Past a certain point, that's probably something we're all best to find out on our own.

I'd say the general ideas you've mentioned are on track. You need to separate strength gains from actual hypertrophy, training and physical condition certainly make a difference, as does the degree of the deficit you're forcing upon your body, and the manner in which it is being achieved.

Yeah, at first (I guess like a lot of newcomers) I was looking for the magic bullet training programme - the one that would give optimal gains. It took a while for it to dawn on me that diet is actually the harder and more important part to get right.

Now it's beginning to dawn on me that the reason there are so many damn different training approaches advocated out there (which is what confuses the hell out of newcomers, and no doubt advanced guys too, and can lead to you dithering in your own mind as to which approach to take) is that different individuals respond to differently to different stimuli. Eg. the whole full body split debate might be explained by it just being a case that some body types respond better to one, and other body types respond better to the other.


Actually I haven't resolved in my own mind as yet as to which is better for me - full body or split approach but as you say, listening to your own body seems to be the answer. Whether direct arms work is beneficial is the other one am still not sure about - gonnae try and resolve these quandaries in the coming months via experimentation.

Actually I haven't resolved in my own mind as yet as to which is better for me - full body or split approach but as you say, listening to your own body seems to be the answer. Whether direct arms work is beneficial is the other one am still not sure about - gonnae try and resolve these quandaries in the coming months via experimentation.

For me I actually find rotating between the two works best for me.

For me I actually find rotating between the two works best for me.


How often do you rotate and are you going from 3 x per week fullbody to a once a week per body part split ?

I have been cutting for about four months, after years of a sedentary lifestyle that had me up to 250 lbs and 31% bodyfat (measured using the 3 pt caliper method at our corporate health center).

That translates into 172 lbs lean muscle mass and 78 lbs of fat. After three months of dieting and exercise, I had my bodyfat tested last month by the same method - I was 231 and 24% (176 lbs LMM, 55 lbs fat).

Most recent testing on 16 January (using BIA) has me at 221 at 18% body fat (181 lbs LMM, 40 lbs fat).

If both methods are to be trusted, then it can be done.

I personally am not sure about the caliper tests, since each was done only once. I have tested BF using BIA probably 30 times since 1 January, since I got an Omron HBF-306 (handheld BF meter) for Christmas. The average daily variation has been no greater than 0.5%.

I have been cutting for about four months, after years of a sedentary lifestyle that had me up to 250 lbs and 31% bodyfat (measured using the 3 pt caliper method at our corporate health center).

That translates into 172 lbs lean muscle mass and 78 lbs of fat. After three months of dieting and exercise, I had my bodyfat tested last month by the same method - I was 231 and 24% (176 lbs LMM, 55 lbs fat).

Most recent testing on 16 January (using BIA) has me at 221 at 18% body fat (181 lbs LMM, 40 lbs fat).

If both methods are to be trusted, then it can be done.

I personally am not sure about the caliper tests, since each was done only once. I have tested BF using BIA probably 30 times since 1 January, since I got an Omron HBF-306 (handheld BF meter) for Christmas. The average daily variation has been no greater than 0.5%.


Just out of curiosity mate, how old is that pic ? I'm kind of guessing by the hairdo and also the shorts style that it's mid 80s ?:D Also with the pool behinf it it's got a definite Dallas/Dynasty look about the pic so am thinking mid 80s:D

You look in tremendous shape in the pic, were you doing a lot of weight training at the time ? Great job in cutting from 31 to 18 percent by the way, am on a similar journey myself and my aim is to try and reach 8 percent (eek).

Your eyes are keen - this photo was in March of 1984, in Fort Lauderdale. I found this while cleaning out some old boxes about a year ago, and decided that this 22 yr old body is still within me (just covered by a thick layer of fat). That's why my tagline is "The once and future me" - it reminds me that this is my goal. I haven't started my journal here yet - other things take precedence, like job, wife, and family.

My training at the time was to ignore diet completely, lift six days a week, do several hours of sports (typically basketball and squash for an hour each), and a quick two mile run each day. Each evening I would sit down and do 1000 situps, without break, then use gravity boots to do more abs until I was blown out. I just tried to fit school around workouts, the pub, and chasing women - gradewise I had a very bad senior year, but wouldn't trade it for anything.

That was every day for 5-6 months. I started at 215-220 lbs, 19% BF by calipers, and ended at 185 lbs, with about 5-6% BF.

My challenge now is to get close to this level of fitness at 46 - shooting for 9-10% BF by my 20th wedding anniversary in four months. By my calculations, that woulf be at 200 lbs without any LMM loss.

Kevin

How often do you rotate and are you going from 3 x per week fullbody to a once a week per body part split ?

I rotate usually based on my schedule changes and time constraints.. but I would say about every 3-4 months I'll change between a 3 x per week full body and a 4 x per week upper/ lower split (2 days upper, 2 days lower). Admittedly, somewhere in there I always slack off for about a month or so

Granted, being female.. I'm not looking to increase muscle size, I gear more towards strength gains for the sports I play. This past year, I've added about 40lbs to my squat and about 30lbs to my bench, with all my other lifts pretty much following suit. Considering I'm not a newbie and have been at this for a few years.. I'm pretty happy with the results.

Your eyes are keen - this photo was in March of 1984, in Fort Lauderdale. I found this while cleaning out some old boxes about a year ago, and decided that this 22 yr old body is still within me (just covered by a thick layer of fat). That's why my tagline is "The once and future me" - it reminds me that this is my goal. I haven't started my journal here yet - other things take precedence, like job, wife, and family.

My training at the time was to ignore diet completely, lift six days a week, do several hours of sports (typically basketball and squash for an hour each), and a quick two mile run each day. Each evening I would sit down and do 1000 situps, without break, then use gravity boots to do more abs until I was blown out. I just tried to fit school around workouts, the pub, and chasing women - gradewise I had a very bad senior year, but wouldn't trade it for anything.

That was every day for 5-6 months. I started at 215-220 lbs, 19% BF by calipers, and ended at 185 lbs, with about 5-6% BF.

My challenge now is to get close to this level of fitness at 46 - shooting for 9-10% BF by my 20th wedding anniversary in four months. By my calculations, that woulf be at 200 lbs without any LMM loss.

Kevin



Interesting story, lol yeah you've got to fit school around the pub and chasing women, it's just the done thing:D

That was a whole load of exercise you were taking, it just shows you the more you move the more trim you get. I've always felt that doing several hours of cv exercise per day would be superior for cutting than the bog standard half hour of cardio per day that most do, albeit if you're in full time job etc that's about as much as most can fit into their day.

"I've always felt that doing several hours of cv exercise per day would be superior for cutting than the bog standard half hour of cardio per day that most do, albeit if you're in full time job etc that's about as much as most can fit into their day."

Gospel being preached to the choir - I simply can't devote the time now to working out that I could way back when ... however, I now understand the importance of diet, and can actually afford to eat 200 gm per day of protein:eat:!!

Just did some internet reading and it seems it is possible - particularly in newbies and in also in obese individuals - whether trained or not.


It seems the body can use its own fat stores to support the hypertrophy whilst in calorific deficit. Apparently the fatter you are the more likely it is the body will release fat stores to support hypertrophy and vice a versa.


Unless you have significant amount of body fat (or are a newbie), your body isn't going to release energy from fat in order to make new muscle. Your body burns fat when its caloric energy needs are not being met through diet -- so, your body isn't going to compound the problem by building additional metabolically expensive tissue (muscle) in a time of deficit. In a way, that is kind of like trading in your hybrid for an SUV during a fuel shortage. Doesn't make sense.

Some people claim to be able to build muscle when on a cut by "zig-zagging" their diet -- but, again, they aren't really doing it at the same time ... they are essentially timing their caloric intake such that they are doing mini-bulks and mini-cuts over a period of time.

Just did some internet reading and it seems it is possible - particularly in newbies and in also in obese individuals - whether trained or not.


It seems the body can use its own fat stores to support the hypertrophy whilst in calorific deficit. Apparently the fatter you are the more likely it is the body will release fat stores to support hypertrophy and vice a versa.

Yup.